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The fix on the Pro

heres some reading for those who want to better understand..now this is based on 4 strokes..but the same principals apply to 2 strokes(substitute port timing for valve timiing....this was compiled by jere stahl and bill clemens..

Rod Length

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Rod Length Relationships

You are invited to participate in this attempt to understand a part of internal combustion engines. I invite any/all criticisms, suggestions, thoughts, analogies, etc.-- written preferred, phone calls accepted from those too feeble or who have arthritis. Contributors are invited to request special computer printouts for specific combinations of interest to them.

In general, most observations relate to engines used for some type of competition event and will in general produce peak power higher than 6000 RPM with good compression ring seal as defined by no more than 3/16 CFM blowby per cylinder.

Short Rod is slower at BDC range and faster at TDC range.

Long Rod is faster at BDC range and slower at TDC range.

I. LONG ROD

A. Intake Stroke -- will draw harder on cyl head from 90-o ATDC to BDC.

B. Compression Stroke -- Piston travels from BDC to 90-o BTDC faster than short rod. Goes slower from 90-o BTDC to TDC--may change ign timing requirement versus short rod as piston spends more time at top. However; if flame travel were too fast, detonation could occur. Is it possible the long rod could have more cyl pressure at ie. 30-o ATDC but less crankpin force at 70-o ATDC. Does a long rod produce more efficient combustion at high RPM--measure CO, CO2? Find out!!

C. Power Stroke -- Piston is further down in bore for any given rod/crank pin angle and thus, at any crank angle from 20 to 75 ATDC less force is exerted on the crank pin than a shorter rod. However, the piston will be higher in the bore for any given crank angle from 90-o BTDC to 90-o ATDC and thus cylinder pressure could be higher. Long rod will spend less time from 90-o ATDC to BDC--allows less time for exhaust to escape on power stroke and will force more exhaust out from BDC to 90-o BTDC. Could have more pumping loss! Could be if exhaust port is poor, a long rod will help peak power.

D. Exhaust Stroke -- see above.

II. Short Rod

A. Intake Stroke -- Short rod spends less time near TDC and will suck harder on the cyl head from 10-o ATDC to 90-o ATDC the early part of the stroke, but will not suck as hard from 90-o to BDC as a long rod. Will require a better cyl head than long rod to produce same peak HP. Short rod may work better for a IR or Tuned runner system that would probably have more inertia cyl filling than a short runner system as piston passes BDC. Will require stronger wrist pins, piston pin bosses, and connecting rods than a long rod.

B. Compression Stroke -- Piston moves slower from BDC to 90-o BTDC; faster from 90-o BTDC to TDC than long rod. Thus, with same ign timing short rod will create less cyl compression for any given crank angle from 90-o BTDC to 90-o ATDC except at TDC. As piston comes down, it will have moved further; thus, from a "time" standpoint, the short rod may be less prone to detonation and may permit higher comp ratios. Short rod spends more time at the bottom which may reduce intake charge being pumped back out intake tract as valve closes--ie. may permit longer intake lobe and/or later intake closing than a long rod.

C. Power Stroke -- Short rod exerts more force to the crank pin at any crank angle that counts ie.--20-o ATDC to 70-o ATDC. Also side loads cyl walls more than long rod. Will probably be more critical of piston design and cyl wall rigidity.

D. Exhaust Stroke -- Stroke starts anywhere from 80-o to 110-o BBDC in race engines due to exhaust valve opening. Permits earlier exhaust opening due to cyl pressure/force being delivered to crank pin sooner with short rod. Requires a better exhaust port as it will not pump like a long rod. Short rod has less pumping loss ABDC up to 90-o BTDC and has more pumping loss from 90-o BTDC as it approaches TDC, and may cause more reversion.

III. NOTES

A. Rod Length Changes -- Appears a length change of 2-1/2% is necessary to perceive a change was made. For R & D purposes it appears a 5% change should be made. Perhaps any change should be 2 to 3%--ie. Ignition timing, header tube area, pipe length, cam shaft valve event area, cyl head flow change, etc.

B. Short Rod in Power Stroke -- Piston is higher in the bore when Rod-Crank angle is at 90-o even though at any given crank angle the piston is further down. Thus, at any given "time" on the power stroke between a rod to crank pin angle of 10o and ie. 90-o, the short rod will generate a greater force on the crank pin which will be in the 70-o to 75-o ATDC range for most engines we are concerned with.

C. Stroke -- Trend of OEM engine mfgs to go to longer stroke and/or less over square (bore numerically higher than stroke) may be a function of L/R. Being that at slower engine speeds the effect of a short rod on Intake causes few problems. Compression/Power Stroke should produce different emissions than a long rod. Short rod Exhaust Stroke may create more reversion--EGR on a street engine.

D. More exhaust lobe or a earlier exhaust opening may defeat a longer rod. I am saying that a shorter rod allows a earlier exhaust opening. A better exhaust port allows a earlier exhaust opening.

E. Definition of poor exhaust port. Becomes turbulent at lower velocity than a better port. Flow curve will flatten out at a lower lift than a good port. A good exhaust port will tolerate more exhaust lobe and the engine will like it. Presuming the engine has adequate throttle area (so as not to cause more than 1" Hg depression below inlet throttle at peak power); then the better the exhaust port is, the greater the differential between optimum intake lobe duration and exhaust lobe duration will be--ie. exh 10-o or more longer than intake Carbon buildup will be minimal if cyl is dry.

IV. DEFINITIONS

Short Rod -- Min Rod/Stroke Ratio -- 1.60 Max Rod/Stroke Ratio -- 1.80

Long Rod -- Min Rod/Stroke Ratio -- 1.81 Max Rod/Stroke Ratio -- 2.00

Any ratio's exceeding these boundaries are at this moment labeled "design screw-ups" and not worth considering until valid data supports it.

Contributors to Date: Bill Clemmons, Jere Stahl

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Connecting Rod Length Influence on Power

by William B. Clemmens

A spark ignition (SI) engine and a steam engine are very similar in principle. Both rely on pressure above the piston to produce rotary power. Pressure above the piston times the area of the bore acts to create a force that acts through the connecting rod to rotate the crankshaft. If the crankshaft is looked at as a simple lever with which to gain mechanical advantage, the greatest advantage would occur when the force was applied at right angles to the crankshaft. If this analogy is carried to the connecting rod crankshaft interface, it would suggest that the most efficient mechanical use of the cylinder pressure would occur when the crank and the connecting rod are at right angles. Changing the connecting rod length relative to the stroke changes the time in crank angle degrees necessary to reach the right angle condition.

A short connecting rod achieves this right angle condition sooner than a long rod. Therefore from a "time" perspective, a short rod would always be the choice for maximum torque. The shorter rod achieves the right angle position sooner and it does so with the piston slightly farther up in the bore. This means that the cyl pressure (or force on the piston) in the cylinder is slightly higher in the short rod engine compared to the long rod engine (relative to time).

Table 1
ROD LENGTH RELATIONSHIPS*
(with Crank @ 90 deg ATDC)

Piston Position Crankpin/Rod Angle

Stroke Rod Length Rod Angle from TDC ATDC
3.5 5.70 17.88 2.025 72.12
3.5 5.85 17.40 2.018 72.59
3.5 6.00 16.96 2.011 73.04
3.5 6.20 16.39 2.002 73.60

Table 2
ROD LENGTH RELATIONSHIPS with CRANKPIN/ROD centerline @ 90o @ 7500 rpm

Stroke Rod Length Rod Angle Piston Distance Crank Angle Piston Accel
3.5 5.70 17.07 1.487 72.93 2728.35
3.5 5.85 16.65 1.494 73.35 2504.72
3.5 6.00 16.26 1.500 73.74 2324.26
3.5 6.20 15.76 1.508 74.24 2097.27

*data from Jere Stahl

Another concern in selecting the rod length is the effects of mechanical stress imposed by increasing engine speed. Typically, the concept of mean piston speed is used to express the level of mechanical stress. However, the word "mean" refers to the average speed of the piston in going from the top of the bore to the bottom of the bore and back to the top of the bore. This distance is a linear distance and is a function of the engine stroke and engine speed, not rod length. Therefore, the mean piston speed would be the same for each rod length listed in Table 1.

Empirical experience; however, indicates that the mechanical stress is less with the longer rod length. There are two reasons for these results. Probably the primary reason for these results is that the profile of the instantaneous velocity of the piston changes with rod length. The longer rod allows the piston to come to a stop at the top of the bore and accelerate away much more slowly than a short rod engine. This slower motion translates into a lower instantaneous velocity and hence lower stresses on the piston. Another strong effect on mechanical stress levels is the angle of the connecting rod with the bore centerline during the engine cycle. The smaller the centerline angle, the less the side loading on the cylinder wall. The longer rod will have less centerline angle for the same crank angle than the shorter rod and therefore has lower side loadings.

Classical textbooks by Obert ( ) and C.F. Taylor ( ) provide little guidance on the rod length selection for passenger or commercial vehicles other than to list the ratios of rod length to crank radiuses that have been used by various engine designs. Race engine builders using production blocks have done quite a bit of experimentation and have found many drivers are capable of telling the difference and making clear choices along with similar results from motorcycle flat track racers/builders.

Because of recent developments in computer modeling of the engine cycle by R.D. Rabbitt ( ), another factor may be critical in selecting a given connecting rod length. This new factor is the cylinder head flow capability versus connecting rod length over stroke ratio (l/r) versus engine speed. To understand this relationship, let us first review previous techniques used to model air flow during the engine cycle which as Rabbitt points out is founded on principles initiated in 1862 and refined in 1920. These theories are documented in Taylor's textbook ( ). To calculate air flow throughout the cycle these models use such parameters as mean or average inlet mach number for the port velocity and an average inlet valve discharge coefficient which compensate for valve lift and duration. In these models a control volume is used to define the boundaries of the combustion chamber. The air flow determined by the previous parameters crosses this boundary to provide air (and fuel) for the combustion process within the control volume.

However, this control volume has historically been drawn in a manner that defines the boundaries of the combustion chamber in the area of the inlet and exhaust valves as if the valves were removed from the cylinder head (ie. a straight line across the port). With the valves effectively removed, the previously mentioned average port flow and valve discharge coefficient (ie. valve restriction) are multiplied within current computer models to quantify the air flow (and fuel) delivered for each intake stroke. But, as Rabbitt points out, this approach totally ignores the effect of the air flow direction and the real effect of valve lift on the total air flow that can be ingested on each intake stroke.

Rabbitt reaches two important conclusions from his study. One, because of the direction of the air flow (angle and swirl) entering the combustion chamber, three dimentional vorticies are set up during the intake stroke. Two, that above a certain piston speed, density of the mixture at the piston face is a function of valve geometry and valve speed. Rabbitt further discusses the effect of the first conclusion as it relates to the mass of air that is allowed to flow through the port and by the valve. Vorticies can exhibit different characteristics and in general conform to two general types--large scale bulk vorticies that could be described as smooth in nature and small scale eddies that are highly turbulant.

If one can consider that the vacuum produced by the piston on its downward travel to be the energy that causes the air to flow through the port when energy losses throughout the intake tract (including losses at the valve) are at a minimum, the flow delivered to the chamber will be maximized. If the area between the piston face and the valve is also included in the consideration of flow losses, the effect of the type of vorticies created can be more easily understood. Large scale bulk vorticies comsume less energy than highly turbulent eddy vorticies. Thus, more of the initial energy from the piston's downward movement is available at the port-valve-combustion chamber interface with which to draw the intake charge into the chamber. Small scale eddies eat up energy which reduces the amount of the initial energy that reaches the port-valve-combustion chamber interface which in turn, reduces the port flow.

Rabbitt's second conclusion follows that at some higher piston speed, the vorticies within the combustion chamber (which are assumed to be large scale bulk type at low speeds) transition from the bulk type to the small scale eddy type. At this point the flow into the combustion chamber ceases to increase in proportion to increases in engine speed. It is theorized that this flow transition point can be observed on the engine power curve as the point at which the power curve begins to fall off with increasing engine speed.

As indicated earlier, piston speed is normally viewed as mean or average piston speed. Thus for a given engine, the mean piston speed increases as the rotational engine speed increases. However, in Rabbitt's model the piston speed of concern is the instantaneous piston speed during the intake stroke near TDC. For any given engine, changing the rod length to stroke (l/r) ratio changes the instantaneous piston speed near TDC. For the purposes of flow visualization, the type of vortex formed should not care whether a given instantaneous piston speed had been achieved by a given rotational speed or changing the (l/r) ratio and operating at a new rotational speed. As long as the instantaneous piston velocity is the same, the type of vorticies formed should be the same and the amount of air inducted into the cylinder should be the same.

If other factors influenced by rotational speed such as the time distance between slug of intake air flow and valve opening rates relative to the acceleration of the air slugs were ignored, one should be able to predict the location (RPM) of the peak power as a result of a change in the (l/r) ratio. Note, that even though power is a funtion of air flow and air flow should be roughly constant for the same instantaneous piston speed (neglecting the afore mentioned factors), the power may not be the same because of the lever arm effect between the crank radius and the connecting rod. (As we noted earlier, the shorter rod should have the advantage in the lever arm effect.)

In reality, the analysis must be viewed by stroke (ie intake, compression, exhaust, power) the selection of exhaust valve opening time combined with the exhaust system backpressure and degree of turbulance the exhaust port experiences. If the exhaust port has good turbulance control then you may run a shorter rod which allows you to use more exhaust lobe which reduces pumping losses on the exhaust stroke.
 
So, it could very well be true that this engine running at 1000ft would benefit from added volume and at the same time, the added volume would hinder at higher elevations?? Wouldn't you agree??

Totally correct on aerodynamics within the engine.. Adding a spacer is NOT the same as porting an engine. All you did was add volume in the lower end.. This MAy upset airflow and MAY aid it..

Is this because the density of the air is enough to change the reynolds number from laminar to turbulant flow or vice versa (which ever is actually going on in the case during intake)? I guess I didn't think the air density change from sea level to 10k feet would have such a significant effect on the flow characteristics of an engine to go from efficient to deficient. Do you have this information for the CFI2? I only ask because I would be running your kit at low altitude and high altitude and wouldn't want to be overly defficient at one vs the other just because I'm lacking in proper air flow... wondering if your kit would benifit from adding some flow "aids" like you stated above at low alt (reeds etc.)?

Good discussion
 
.

IV. DEFINITIONS

Short Rod -- Min Rod/Stroke Ratio -- 1.60 Max Rod/Stroke Ratio -- 1.80

Long Rod -- Min Rod/Stroke Ratio -- 1.81 Max Rod/Stroke Ratio -- 2.00

Any ratio's exceeding these boundaries are at this moment labeled "design screw-ups" and not worth considering until valid data supports it.

.

Good stuff, thanks for that..

While a 2 stroke and a 4 stroke are VERY different, there are some over-laps.. But, again, VERY different in concept and design.

BUT.. IF you want to say that rod ratio is an over-lap between the 2..

The rod ratio on the 800 Polaris is 1.87... So, if you look above.. it falls WELL in the range of an acceptable rod ratio... correct?

Kelsey
 
So, at, say... 7000ft.... how is that 800 acting? Is it acting like a true 800 or maybe a 600?? It is all relative... your 800cc sled is really a 600cc sled at the higher elevations... food for thought...

As for the piston configuration changing load properties.. sure.. but when you already have a cylinder skirt that is too short and then you raise the cylinder.. that too short skirt gets even shorter, not longer, so there is less piston support--> everytime...

Ok so is the benchmark cat or E tech 800's to big or to small at altitude?Now compression ratio at altitude I would accept
 
not questioning where the rod ratio falls at kelsey..my only comment was that by lengthing the rod ratio 2 things should happen..1...the skirt loading( both cylinder and piston) will be reduced...2.. potential air flow will increase..(this may require porting, knife edging crank throws, and even larger throttle bodies), which has the potential to make noticable more power..as far as 2 stroke vrs 4 stroke..it is basically an air pump..both designs, and both will see very similar results....(while it is easier up to a point to change port flows/timing on a 4 stroke(cams/valves and such vrs port heights/widths in a 2 stroke)both can be manipulated to acheive the desired results......
I have nothing against the kits you offer...have no real experience with them, but there are many ways to skin a cat..in my own past experience I have always found a longer rod ratio more benificial especially when seeing heavy cylinder loading..now, as far as piston design..I think most everyone right now is using a silicone based aluminum for their pistons..personally, I think BME's material would be far better it avoids the main pitfalls of a silicone material..much less prone to cracking, and if it does crack in a high stress area(such as a skirt) i=the crack will stop as soon as it reaches a lighter stress area..which would be benificial in the CFI 2 motors...
 
not questioning where the rod ratio falls at kelsey..my only comment was that by lengthing the rod ratio 2 things should happen..1...the skirt loading( both cylinder and piston) will be reduced...2.. potential air flow will increase..(this may require porting, knife edging crank throws, and even larger throttle bodies), which has the potential to make noticable more power..as far as 2 stroke vrs 4 stroke..it is basically an air pump..both designs, and both will see very similar results....(while it is easier up to a point to change port flows/timing on a 4 stroke(cams/valves and such vrs port heights/widths in a 2 stroke)both can be manipulated to acheive the desired results......
I have nothing against the kits you offer...have no real experience with them, but there are many ways to skin a cat..in my own past experience I have always found a longer rod ratio more benificial especially when seeing heavy cylinder loading..now, as far as piston design..I think most everyone right now is using a silicone based aluminum for their pistons..personally, I think BME's material would be far better it avoids the main pitfalls of a silicone material..much less prone to cracking, and if it does crack in a high stress area(such as a skirt) i=the crack will stop as soon as it reaches a lighter stress area..which would be benificial in the CFI 2 motors...


No problem.. But you stated it above Potential WITh changes..

My point was.. simply adding a spacer WITHOUT adding any other "air flow adders" will usually be counter productive.. Yes, potential is there, but OTHER changes must be made to take advantage of this potential..

There a pros and cons to long vs short rods.. in fact, the short rods on a 2 stroke will usually add more torque where, apparently, on a 4 stroke the opposite is true..

Short rods create more port time area and this can make power..

again.. the 2 and 4 stroke are VERY different in the power making process. while you can correlate porting to valves and what not for an understanding, that is really where it ends... 4 strokes do not have to deal with internal pressures that hinder flow and charge purity because they have dedicated strokes for each operation... Those are just a few:usa2:There are many more... But It is not my intent to get in to a full discussion on the differences.

So, again, VERY different.. very, very different.. same with case volume.. you can not really relate them..

No question longer rods reduce side loading.. but why reduce side loading if it is not needed??? and IMO, itis not needed
 
Thanks for the info on operating rpm, I never knew the 800 stock was happy at 8300 regardless of your kit. I could careless about all the technical cliff clavin comentary, I just want what most do, reliability and performance proven before I forgo warranty to avoid a chopper ride and friends ridicule.
 
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We added tons of case volume to our old BB 800 race motors to make them run.
Would be interesting to see what the case volume difference is. I may try to do that. They had a longer rod, 136mm, with same stroke and bore as the cfi2. Cylinder skirt thickness was around .180+ without breakage problems.
The 136mm rod will help issues on the major thrust side of the cfi2.
Polaris could build a 800 cfi motor around a rod ratio of 2.00. They had a screamer with the 600HO carbed, it was a 2.00. It ran forever,even turboed well. How about the 600cfi???
 
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Sorry guys, I was wrong. I called Shaun and they did add material above the wrist pin. Not just move the wrist pin. So yes there will be less support on the piston skirt at BDC but the piston should be supported like Norway said with more surface area up in the cylinder. The port timing does not change because of the shim and the skirt doesnt control any lower ports in the cylinder.

I'm missing the part about the cylinder skirt having less support with the PMS kit. The shim they supply is cut the same as the case, so the amount of support is the same, is it not?
 
I'm missing the part about the cylinder skirt having less support with the PMS kit. The shim they supply is cut the same as the case, so the amount of support is the same, is it not?

Yes and No. The cylinder skirt should have the same support. The amount of support the piston skirt will have at BDC will be lessened with a shim. The wrist pin of the piston was not relocated but the top of the piston was raised. When you lift the cylinders the piston will be more exposed (less support) at BDC. Although the piston will be less likely to rock in the bore with more surface area in the cylinder at the correct tolerances.
 
I am going to chime in here..just so the average guy can make an informed decision...a longer rod will lessen skirt loading...period..been proven time and again over the years..it will also move more air thru the motor for a given case/cylinder volume..again been proven for years(case in point..when polaris changed this motor from a 6 to a 8..they lengthened the rod...both to lighten skirt loading due to the bigger/heavier piston, and to help with case /cylinder filling which is a by product of a longer rod..) now is it the fix all? no its not, but every engine designer/builder spends a lot of time /work coming up with a rod ratio that balances out bore/stroke/breathing capacity. normally to lessen pressure on the skirts with a longer rod, you would not move the cylinder, but redesign the piston to move the wristpin up in the piston, which concentrates the side loads closer to the barrel of the piston and off the skirts..
Kelseys tigher pistons will lighten the skirt loading..but the mono block cylinders due to the compact design and the placement of the powervalves lack good equal coolant flow around the whole cylinder, which can (and I am sure does) lead to cylinders going out of round as they get hotter and hotter, which could cause issues with too tight of a piston/bore ..as for the dome design on the piston making more power..most likely not measurable on a dyno..but the tighter wall clearences should make for better ring seal which should help power...personally, I would love to see a builder come out with a .250 longer rod, a new forged piston with the wristpin moved up .250 as well as mover over closer to the intake sside by.010- .015 and a .004 to .006 wall clearence..I think the breathinig improvements when coupled with the right dome shape would add 10+ hp, and I think it would end the skirt issues we are seeing...

kelsey, I have to disagree, case volume/ cylinder bore/stroke and even rod ratio and crank throw edging all play a role in how much air a motor can move..and thus how much power it can produce......

No problem.. But you stated it above Potential WITh changes..

My point was.. simply adding a spacer WITHOUT adding any other "air flow adders" will usually be counter productive.. Yes, potential is there, but OTHER changes must be made to take advantage of this potential..
There a pros and cons to long vs short rods.. in fact, the short rods on a 2 stroke will usually add more torque where, apparently, on a 4 stroke the opposite is true..

Short rods create more port time area and this can make power..

again.. the 2 and 4 stroke are VERY different in the power making process. while you can correlate porting to valves and what not for an understanding, that is really where it ends... 4 strokes do not have to deal with internal pressures that hinder flow and charge purity because they have dedicated strokes for each operation... Those are just a few:usa2:There are many more... But It is not my intent to get in to a full discussion on the differences.

So, again, VERY different.. very, very different.. same with case volume.. you can not really relate them..

No question longer rods reduce side loading.. but why reduce side loading if it is not needed??? and IMO, itis not needed

For another data point onthe longer rod, I built two 797 engines this past fall, one with a 128mm rod and the other with a 136mm rod. The 2 engines use all the same parts, cyl porting, heads, pistons, ignition carbs, cases, stroke, reeds etc. The only difference in the 2 engines is the rod length and the spacer.

The results are astounding, the long rod engine is unreal, it will pull the short rod engine by 3+ sled lengths every single time, drag race, deep snow etc. It also pulls 2g more primary weight than the shorter rod engine does. The engines are installed in the same chassis and use the same y-pipe, pipe, can, air intake system etc.

From the field, the long rod WORKS better than the shorter rod.


Kelsey, from the pictures on your website it appears that the drop in piston kit is a modified Cat 800 piston? Is this why you are sticking with the current rod ratio?
 
Yes and No. The cylinder skirt should have the same support. The amount of support the piston skirt will have at BDC will be lessened with a shim. The wrist pin of the piston was not relocated but the top of the piston was raised. When you lift the cylinders the piston will be more exposed (less support) at BDC. Although the piston will be less likely to rock in the bore with more surface area in the cylinder at the correct tolerances.

I know that the spacer is way tighter around the cylinder sleve than it is going into the lose/sloppy case ,,not to mention its billet steel
 
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For another data point onthe longer rod, I built two 797 engines this past fall, one with a 128mm rod and the other with a 136mm rod. The 2 engines use all the same parts, cyl porting, heads, pistons, ignition carbs, cases, stroke, reeds etc. The only difference in the 2 engines is the rod length and the spacer.

The results are astounding, the long rod engine is unreal, it will pull the short rod engine by 3+ sled lengths every single time, drag race, deep snow etc. It also pulls 2g more primary weight than the shorter rod engine does. The engines are installed in the same chassis and use the same y-pipe, pipe, can, air intake system etc.

From the field, the long rod WORKS better than the shorter rod.


Kelsey, from the pictures on your website it appears that the drop in piston kit is a modified Cat 800 piston? Is this why you are sticking with the current rod ratio?
heard the same thing from eric hanson when he was building the race cranks, said works great with carbs!!!
 
In theory the larger case volume is better is that correct ?
I understand Kelsey filling the pond theory where as you need to increase flow to fill the void. My question is since these engines are fuel injected will they flow more air due to not having to pull fuel also ?
Thanks to all who have contributed .
 
I have one on my 11 pro all season! Its quiter! I did it so that I could do some port work,plus I felt that the billet steel base spacer gave my cylinder skirts some needed support as they were real tight going on as well as the lip that went into the case,, I felt the whole package made the engine from top to bottom more rigid, the longer piston I feel stopped the rocking into the exhaust port causing skift breakage,JMO though

My 11 800 is a fibrating sob at about 4500-to 5000 rpm. Also at idle. You mentioned that your engine is quieter with this kit. Does it run smoother with the increased crank case volume.
My buddies e-tech 800 is the smooooothest running engine I have ever seen or heard. My 05 800 was smooth compared to this 800 pro. I am not really looking for more power. In fact I am going to look at the 600 next spring. I want as smooth running long lasting sled and engine.

Looking at the Fix for my sled as well. Comparing options. Good stuff on this thread.

Thanks

D
 
I think its Quiter from a tolerance standpoint,( not rattling) But I dont think it will effect balance from a vibration stand point, and I doubt the minute crankcase volume would effect much!Guys I used this Kit so that I could change my exhust port shape
 
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What should i or people buy? MTNTK or RkTek fix kit? The price is almost the same and i guess there is no difference..?
That is a very tough decision..and one I dont have an answer for, I personally would talk to both and find out what their strengths/weaknesses are, what if any kind of warranty they have, and then ask for name/numbers of average users that you can talk to and find out how they like what they are running...me personally, if mine went down in a non warranty situation..most likely I would do Carl's 900 kit..but thats just me..(I would investigate Indy Dan's kit as well)...
 
There is a lot of difference in these two kits and that is why I started this post to see which kit to choose plus there is also Indy Dans theory. I call them theorys because none have enough miles on them to say they are the absolute fix for the cfi2. I am in contact with another 11 pro owner and he is going with one kit and I think I am going to try the other and than compare results. I like some of Indy Dans kit but just out of my price range.
I do not have any problem spending $$$ on my sled for enhancements but it just rubs me wrong to have to go thru all this on a sled with 1500 miles BS.
Hind sight is 20/20 and had I know this engine was going to be a issue I would have bought a 11 cat. In are group it is 60/40 and the 40 is the ones always be towed out or should I say dragon out. At this point if I could sell it I would buy a M8 and walk away from Polaris and I thought I would never say that.Polaris you build a chit 800 engine underpowered and still can not stay together and have been doing it since 08.
 
Ak i have asked for names and given my # to Kelsey to give out so as I could talk to some one that has his kit. I have got no response. So far Kawgrn is the only one to come on here with hands on and that was for the fix kit.
Indy Dan is the only one that will warranty his theory.
As far as Carls BB for most of us that is way out of our price range hard to justify that on something you get to ride a few weekends a yr.
I believe I am the norm I just want a dependable sled with ample HP and if I am going to spend money on it I want it in acc not a rebuild. My Pro already cost me a trip to McCall this yr and most likely next yr because that 1k I would spend in McCall is going toward pistons.
 
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