Summit 850: Ratchet, Slap, Rocks and Carnage!!

[christopher]

When you've got this many people on forums choked af about the bulkhead, there's something going on there.

One thing I have learned here over the last 8 years.
SnoWest tends to be a STRONG MAGNIFYING GLASS.
It "Concentrates" things and can make something small seem VERY BIG.

Right now I can honestly say I do NOT know how big of an issue this really is for Ski-Doo across North America.

This could be a huge issue that is keeping them awake at night, or just a Tempest in a Teapot. I just don't know..

And, because I am still BRAND NEW to this whole lightweight 2 stroke world, I simply have NO REAL WORLD experience to fall back on to compare how the 850's measure up against other similar performing sleds. My sole point of comparison is to the Yamaha Nytros, and that is just NOT a fair comparison by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[christopher]

This has got to be very frustrating to say the least. You have a fair amount of people having belt issues & possibly a poorly designed bulkhead yet have Doo PR guys posting up pictures of epic pow rides saying all is well. I would not be pleased to say the least. Nothing worse than to constantly wonder if your belt is going to blow up or if you tag something light the bulkhead is going to crack like a egg.

I don't think there is anyone left out there arguing that this sled RIPS in good snow. It really does perform VERY WELL!!

The belt issue is more interesting.
Maybe Ski-Doo just worked to hard to quiet down the sled as much as possible and ended up trapping too much hot air next to the clutches. Since this is a pretty easy User Modification to remove the foam and open up some ventilation, we should have a pretty solid answer soon now from the general riders in our community. If I understand it correctly, the belt is NOT a new item, but taken from one of their Side-by-Sides, so its a known working design. Hopefully some good looking vent kits will quickly resolve this one.

 

[goridedoo]

I don't think there is anyone left out there arguing that this sled RIPS in good snow. It really does perform VERY WELL!!

The belt issue is more interesting.
Maybe Ski-Doo just worked to hard to quiet down the sled as much as possible and ended up trapping too much hot air next to the clutches. Since this is a pretty easy User Modification to remove the foam and open up some ventilation, we should have a pretty solid answer soon now from the general riders in our community. If I understand it correctly, the belt is NOT a new item, but taken from one of their Side-by-Sides, so its a known working design. Hopefully some good looking vent kits will quickly resolve this one.

As many have said- with proper clutching/gearing you should not have belt temp issues. Venting will likely not be the proper solution.

I can see Doo POSSIBLY stepping up and offering a solution to the belt issues... Offering to replace 1000s bulkheads? Doubt it. I am sure the answer to the bulkhead issues will be that under normal riding conditions they wont fail, and they arent wrong. And as Christopher said, issues do tend to get blown out of porportion on SW, maybe there arent as many as it seems? Time will tell.

 

[Backcountry Bandit]

Can you elaborate on this?

I'm friends with a doo dealer owner. I won't say anything else, just that I trust him and he said doo is on it and will have solutions very soon.
Not being a dick, I just respect him and his dealership.

Honestly, stay positive folks. I have full faith we will be taken care of.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Vertical-Extreme]

Dont think the magnifying glass is that strong on this one....snowandmud is showing the same thing. Apparently one dealer in BC has seen 30


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[Goinboardin]

Even with strong/solid aftermarket arms like the Z-Broz, KMod and others... the Poo cast bulkheads don't seem to be suffering though.

And YES... The lower forged aluminum a-arms on the AXYS are a weak link that many are replacing with aftermarket units.






.

Its an interesting comparison. Doo has strong lower arms, weak S-mods (been that way for a while). Axys has strong bulkhead and almost too weak of lower arms. I too don't think it's an inherent issue of castings with the Doo's, just the execution of the design & material.

Those mentioning the demo sleds holding up better, those were a little different S-mods as I recall.

 

[mountainhorse]

Those mentioning the demo sleds holding up better, those were a little different S-mods as I recall.

Waiter, waiter, this lobster's only got one claw.

It must have been in a fight, sir.

Then bring me the winner !!!

...

 

[toyotamobbin]

I'm friends with a doo dealer owner. I won't say anything else, just that I trust him and he said doo is on it and will have solutions very soon.
Not being a dick, I just respect him and his dealership.

Honestly, stay positive folks. I have full faith we will be taken care of.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Did he say anything about those of us that already payed out to have this issue repaired on our own dime? I'm assuming I'm sol but it would be cool if I could get a brace kit or something.

 

[turbolover]

Bigger than life we did.

On saturday, I think 6 out of our 10 riders got tossed off their sleds in the same field on Mt. Jefferson.

I think this was discussed that Mount J was not a good option to ride yet.

Sorry about all of your bad luck.

 

[christopher]

I think this was discussed that Mount J was not a good option to ride yet.

Sorry about all of your bad luck.

Absolutely.
Everyone told me to STAY AWAY. YOU INCLUDED Charlie..
Can't possibly accept any more responsibility for my actions than I already have though!

 

[alt]

Not at all being negative just looking at this in a realistic manner. IMO you will not see any compensation from ski doo, nor will they come up with a fix especially this season. Polaris did virtually nothing for how many year on the glue situation. This will be left up to the aftermarket. Who came up with the drive axle fix on pro...Not Polaris. Polaris followed suit on someone else's idea refusing to fix the problem even into the following generations. Let's face it it was a band-aid. Through my eyes when you look at the bulk head on the gen 4 and the newer Polaris there is a visably distinct look between the two. The gen4 to me actually looks porous and brittle. Eric I have to respectively disagree with your comment on the same manufacturer not having a part in possibly the issue and maybe that's not exactly what you were saying,but my thoughts are the complete opposite. The poo bulkhead is not suffering because it simply a better cast and not in the sense of design, I say material or the process of the material manufacturing process. Cheap or just processed incorrectly, could be either one but a design flaw I don't think so. I have absolutely no knowledge as to whether or not these two came out of the same facility but just because a company has put out an outstanding product on one particular part does not mean they will all be. There is more to this than just being too thin. I believe we are going to see more of these fail as the season goes on. An epidemic maybe not but then again possibly. Guys will find a way through it they always do. Just one guys point of view and hopefully I'm wrong.

 

[LoudHandle]

I'm really surprised that no one at SkiDoo Corporate said to the G4's chief engineer "You really think that this aluminum eggshell with the A-arm and sway bar mounts will survive anything but as an unridable display sled? Even the Polaris ones we bought to get ideas from, have gussets and reinforcements everywhere that there is a stress vector."

I feel for you Chris and all the others! It's is a lot easier to upgrade parts than re-invent a poorly conceived chassis.

When You really look at the G4 castings, IMO it is largely an oversight of the engineering team that designed the casting. There was little to no thought put into where the loads would be and the resultant thrust / force vector that would result. As a result, there is no meat / gusseting to absorb / distribute the forces.

One has to look no further than Polaris' tried and true example on both the PRO Ride and the AXYS bulkheads to see why they work. The Polaris castings are very thin, where there is little to no stress (just enough thickness to keep the snow out); But where the casting sees lots of stress input, it is substantially thicker and well gusseted.

If the same company is producing both castings; then their engineers should have had the knowledge to review Skidoo's designs and tell them they were flawed. There is no way either company ran a legitimate FEA on these problematic castings. Or it would have shown them exactly how and where they would fail. My bet is Skidoo rushed this design thru, for whatever reason, and that decision always ends badly.

I read an article in a trade magazine about the relationship Polaris and the casting company had; they collaborated for years on the PRO Ride castings, to get the design perfected before it went into production.

Looks to me like Doo was too arrogant to take advantage of some good helpful knowledge, which would have allowed them to get it right the first time and save themselves this PR nightmare.

 

[greenthumb]

The issue here for me (and I think many others) is not the failures themselves, but rather the way the sled has not lived up to some of its marketing. Furthermore BRP has gone silent addressing these issues (so far), effectively leaving their customers out to dry and profit from the parts they sell.

The front end was claimed to be stronger over previous designs with a-arms being the failure point. This is turning out to be apparently false.

The clutches are supposed to run cooler. For many, myself included, the clutches run hotter than the previous generation for the same riding conditions. Some of the mountain riders are destroying a belt every few rides without any explanation.
Also, the calibration is so far off for many high altitude riders, changing/adding parts is required just to get it within their own specifications.

The claimed oil consumption reduction was rescinded during the summer.

These were all selling points that were well marketed by BRP. There is no disputing that. If these points weren't so hyped, then this would not be such a big issue to me. I expected some first year problems, but BRPs lack of acknowledgement or recompense will likely motivate me to spend my money elsewhere in the future. Their arrogance and lack of support ruins the ownership experience of a premium priced product.


Now to be fair, some things that BRP did deliver on and things that you don't hear people complaining about.

The engine is a performer, and the reliability is there so far. Too early to judge the longevity, but I suspect (and hope) these engines will last.

The mountain tracks are impressive, and some models received extra wheels and unexpected anti-stab kits.

Overall performance is fantastic. No one is complaining about poor handling, lack of throttle response or insufficient rider enjoyment. Fact is, these are the best performing sleds ski-doo has ever produced. Even some of the people with problematic units are praising their machines.

 

[Xrider]

The problem in regards to the bulkhead issue is that all failures are the result of an impact with a rock. I think that gives doo an easy out. The clutching issue is a little different but more easily resolved. I just saw a video from Rasmussen and after removing some foam, he's having no problems...lots of miles too.

 

[d1100t]

Poor quality material

I agree with the comments above that state the mateial looks to be cast with a poor quality material.
To me the casting looks brittle. I don't like the way it looks after its cracked.
It also looks to be very thin. If there isn't any gussets or support inside the bulkhead to spread the shock load out over a bigger area it's going to fail/break/crack just like the pics show. If guys that are jumping this sled lots are bottoming out the shocks lots they are probably going to have it happen to them also. Looks to me like a lot of these bulkheads will break in the future. I hope I'm wrong but that's what it looks like to me.

In my opinion the ball joints, A arms or spindles should fail before the bulkhead.
If I hit a rock with a ski I'd sooner change a ball joint or A arm or spindle or ski or even the shock. Those are pretty easy fixes.
I'm probably going to be pretty mad that I have to change my bulkhead or tunnel and no suspension parts.

By the looks of it there's lots and lots of pics all over the Internet of sleds with this problem. If it keeps happening it's going to turn into a big problem.

BRP need to update the bulkhead with ether better thicker material or support inside the bulkhead that spreads out the forces over a bigger area.

I hope BRP steps up and helps you guys out.

 

[christopher]

Now to be fair, some things that BRP did deliver on and things that you don't hear people complaining about.

The engine is a performer, and the reliability is there so far. Too early to judge the longevity, but I suspect (and hope) these engines will last.

The mountain tracks are impressive, and some models received extra wheels and unexpected anti-stab kits.

Overall performance is fantastic. No one is complaining about poor handling, lack of throttle response or insufficient rider enjoyment. Fact is, these are the best performing sleds ski-doo has ever produced. Even some of the people with problematic units are praising their machines.

Agreed
The sled is not a turd.

 

[AkSledHed]

This is not the kind of report I was hoping to read on the new G4 Summits and I've seen this on several other websites. I can certainly understand the eagerness to ride a new sled but with the way snow is lacking in most areas one has to have some patience or this sort of thing is going to happen. I'm glad I didn't buy one of these 1st year sleds, hopefully they get them fixed right and come out next year with a much more stout machine. Sorry to hear about your sleds Christopher, hopefully they will get fixed and back on the snow once the conditions improve.

 

[curt234]

The problem in regards to the bulkhead issue is that all failures are the result of an impact with a rock. I think that gives doo an easy out. The clutching issue is a little different but more easily resolved. I just saw a video from Rasmussen and after removing some foam, he's having no problems...lots of miles too.

I bet his sled isn't stock and I have a hard time believing that just removing the felt is going to make the difference. He is a paid sponsor from Ski-Doo so take that what its worth. I got a 850 165 3 inch and when I checked the clutches they would always steam the moisture off my hands. Sleds got 170km on it and it look's like the string on the belt is starting to let go. Snow was deep, first ride out got stuck lots so the clutches had lots of time to cool off but don't take long to get hot again.

 

[Skidoox]

Has anyone that is blowing belts checked the alignment of the clutches?

I had a friend with a 2009 xp that was going through belts. We aligned the motor with the secondary clutch and he now has over 1500 miles on the belt.

Can one of you with belt problems take a picture of belt in the primary and secondary clutch to see if the belt has a dog leg in it?

 

[HeavyBrewster]

Guys, please don't turn this into another belt chatter thread. "Stay on target."