Ramps in the TRA, how they work and how they effect performance.

[tollen77]

Well, i have learned a lot from you guys, and trying to pay some respects to those who definately get these things way more then I do. Or those who are helping this discussion stay positive and constructive, helps out a lot for the Novice TRA guys like me who want to learn.

As for what we are tunning for, its really hard to have this discussion with half throttle trail riding, and WOT over the hood climbing being compared, i really think that most of us dont give a hoot about the trail running, a good mountain setup should do fine on the trail, and 1 long hard pull in deep snow will do more wear then 10 miles of trail will, so lets tune to the one that works harder.

I need some snow again to get a better feal for the clutches on my RT, i like the way things work, just the primary seems to slip a little on WOT on climps. I need to be able to see how far out its shifting, but i think a little less finish on the primary spring is in order, otherwise she pulls my arms lik i havent seen in a while.

Agreed that a good mountian set-up should do OK on the trails.... but ensuring that there is enough belt squeeze at midrange RPM is still something that is important to undersatnd and to tune for, IMO.

When you're on a big climb and have to back off the throttle, when you get back into it you definately would prefer for the clutch to grab at these lower RPMs rather than just spin. Same thing goes when you're playing in the trees and need to get off and then back on the throttle.

That said, I think we can all agree what we're aiming for is mountian set-ups, not trail set-ups. Clutching theory remains the same for either though.



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[Original Tetonice]

OT, WHO CARES how much the ramps weighs. It's weight does NOTHING. It could be 100Lbs for all it matters. It is STATIONARY and does not move. All it is is a surface for the ramp to roll on. Do you care how much the ground weighs when you drive on it???

Quit confusing yourself

If that were the case than BRP would build ramps that weigh 20 grams instead of 63 grams or at least as light as an arm/roller. Perhaps you think that just 14 grams of pinweight is all that is required to rev the motor to reach its calibrated peak rpm ?...How about 68 gram flyweight in a P85...Oh let me guess your going to say the P85 is differant. LOL

And your wrong the ramps are not stationary and do move. Just ask yourself when the TRA clicker is set at #4 and you clicker down to #2 how does the ramp get to #2 ?

Some folks need to go back to DooTalk.

OT

 

[Dock]

so i got my 09 race manual the other day, i've been reading up on the clutches and what i took from it was that they should only slip from about 4-5k RPM, after that the clutch is fully engaged and shouldn't slip at all??? so i could see when you are going down the trail to get to the hills it could heat up becasue you are in that 4-5k RPM, but i have had issues where even after one climb my clutches were to hot to touch for at least 15 mins. that was on the 07 and i hope the 09s are better but none the less it is still neat to know what caused my excessive clutch heat

 

[tollen77]

If that were the case than BRP would build ramps that weigh 20 grams instead of 63 grams or at least as light as an arm/roller. Perhaps you think that just 14 grams of pinweight is all that is required to rev the motor to reach its calibrated peak rpm ?...How about 68 gram flyweight in a P85...Oh let me guess your going to say the P85 is differant. LOL

And your wrong the ramps are not stationary and do move. Just ask yourself when the TRA clicker is set at #4 and you clicker down to #2 how does the ramp get to #2 ?

Some folks need to go back to DooTalk.

OT

OT, that's a good argument regarding the weight of ramps and how their inertial mass effects RPM....(clearly the weight of the overall clutch does matter) but that isn't at all what you were talking about before. You were quoting needless facts and generally making very little sense.

If you have something to add to the conversation, great. But please don't talk around and around just to win an argument.



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[Wheel House Motorsports]

OT please stop trying to tell us all that TRA ramps move.... your the only one who thinks like this, changing clickers basically allows you to throw in a different ramp by just adjusting the one out there.

your logic is the same as saying shimming the cylinder head makes it movable. just because it can be adjusted doesnt mean its movable.... keep trying, your not getting anwhere.

 

[tollen77]

so i got my 09 race manual the other day, i've been reading up on the clutches and what i took from it was that they should only slip from about 4-5k RPM, after that the clutch is fully engaged and shouldn't slip at all??? so i could see when you are going down the trail to get to the hills it could heat up becasue you are in that 4-5k RPM, but i have had issues where even after one climb my clutches were to hot to touch for at least 15 mins. that was on the 07 and i hope the 09s are better but none the less it is still neat to know what caused my excessive clutch heat

Yeah, I'm with you there Dock.... nice to know what the he!! is going on in there!

I've still got a lot to learn about clutching too... though I doubt I'll ever be able know it all. Glad to hear your opinions and problems as they've added a lot to my understanding of clutching as well. Thanks!


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[Original Tetonice]

OT please stop trying to tell us all that TRA ramps move.... your the only one who thinks like this, changing clickers basically allows you to throw in a different ramp by just adjusting the one out there.

your logic is the same as saying shimming the cylinder head makes it movable. just because it can be adjusted doesnt mean its movable.... keep trying, your not getting anwhere.

Glad you think the ramps are stationary... and im glad you think that by changing the TRA clickers is basically allows you to throw in a differant ramp.

I would sure like to know where you got that info, Dootalk ?

You can lead mules to water but you can't make them drink.

OT

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

OT, when i get home tommorow night and get my parts back unpacked out of my truck, i will take some pictures, and see whos the mule who wont drink, until then, have at it.

 

[YamaDoo PolCat]

Why buy a a primary at triple the price when you can just buy a P85.
Plus the TRA primary work just fine as long as your not assuming any false hopes & understand the Doo's & Don't of the TRA primary.......SHHHHH don't tell anyone about secret spring in kids diaper. He want to install in the Polar but the Polar broke before he had a chance. to test it.

When the Polar makes its way to the podium at any race events is when i might pay attention.. The P85, TRA and Artco still dominate the podium.

OT

I couldn't find any cars running P85, TRA or ARTCO. There are some that run the Comet, but Polar seems to be in most of the top cars now in the NHRA Jr Drag Racing circuit.

This car goes rounds!!! 72% round win percentage, won 34% of local events in last two years.
2007 Albuq. Points Champion
2008 Albuq. 2nd in points
13 final rounds, 10 Event wins in 2007-2008
Has run as quick as 8.37 in ABQ @ 325 pounds
Can easily be slowed to 8.90 -- 9.30
Motivational Tubing chrome moly chassis
3x3 Blockzilla engine built and maintained by Phil McGee
Polar Clutch with complete Polar tuning package
Beautiful "American Flag" paint (not wrap)
All lettering is removable vinyl
Chassis completely updated including helmet bars
Weight bar
Mychron 660 Data Logger and software
TF100 front tires and M/T rear slicks
Meets all NHRA required safety specs

 

[YamaDoo PolCat]

Glad you think the ramps are stationary... and im glad you think that by changing the TRA clickers is basically allows you to throw in a differant ramp.

I would sure like to know where you got that info, Dootalk ?

You can lead mules to water but you can't make them drink.

OT

Drink? Count me in mule!

Me and OT are going to the drag races in the summer, and he's buying, Yippee!

Now if I can just get OT to pull up his baggy pants and leave his ****tty springs at home ....

 

[shortstop20]

Why not experiment. Just try installing a couple of belt pulleys off your old washing machine. One on the engine - one on the jackshaft, and see how much heat they generate by leaving the belt in one spot. Probably about as much heat as it did on the washing machine. It is just a belt drive - nothing different.

A belt pulley system on a washing machine isn't comparable to a CVT system on a snowmobile. They do not grip the belt in the same way.

While you are at it this might be a good time to "increase the clamping force" of the pulleys by tightening the belt up until the jackshaft starts to bend a little. Then run it again and see if that makes heat... Got hot and broke the belt, didn't it. Do you still think "slippage" makes killer heat?

The problem is that the jackshaft is bending on the Ski-Doo's? Where exactly are you going with this? Slippage doesn't make heat just because "overtension" does? You can think what you want, slippage makes heat, plenty of it.

You can leave a belt loose and "slipping" on a pulley forever and not cause the heat you will cause when you over tension a belt.

So much for slippage, look someplace else for heat.

I've held my tongue for a while but I'm just gonna say it. You seem to think your Polar clutch transfers all the available power over a 6000 ft. elevation change with the same setup and then you come here trying to tell people about clutching? It is obvious based on that statement that you don't know much about clutching.

If that were the case than BRP would build ramps that weigh 20 grams instead of 63 grams or at least as light as an arm/roller. Perhaps you think that just 14 grams of pinweight is all that is required to rev the motor to reach its calibrated peak rpm ?...How about 68 gram flyweight in a P85...Oh let me guess your going to say the P85 is differant. LOL

The ramps in a TRA do not move like the weights in a P85 do so your point is null.

 

[banditpowdercoat]

If that were the case than BRP would build ramps that weigh 20 grams instead of 63 grams or at least as light as an arm/roller. Perhaps you think that just 14 grams of pinweight is all that is required to rev the motor to reach its calibrated peak rpm ?...How about 68 gram flyweight in a P85...Oh let me guess your going to say the P85 is differant. LOL

And your wrong the ramps are not stationary and do move. Just ask yourself when the TRA clicker is set at #4 and you clicker down to #2 how does the ramp get to #2 ?

Some folks need to go back to DooTalk.

OT

OK,
1st I'll ask you to leave DT outa this, just cause your not welcome there. no need to through insults


And second, \
In operation of the clutch, When engine is RUNNING, and your making a pull. The RAMPS DO NOT MOVE when referenced to the crank shaft, or the rollers fro that matter The ramps are just a PATH THAT THE ROLLERS PUSH ON, WHICH DETERMIN HOW FAR IN THE SHEAVE WILL MOVE

Like a treadmill. the ramos are like a treadmill, that you run on... Your the rollers. And the clickers, well, thats setting what ANGLE the tredmill is at. Does it matter that said treadmill weighs 200# or 250# NO


THINK ABOUT IT FOR A MOMENT

 

[banditpowdercoat]

Glad you think the ramps are stationary... and im glad you think that by changing the TRA clickers is basically allows you to throw in a differant ramp.

I would sure like to know where you got that info, Dootalk ?

You can lead mules to water but you can't make them drink.

OT

OK, now your just being an ahole and starting to pee me off

Never said changing clickers allows you to throw in a different ramp. BUT, it is changing ramp ANGLE. Could you not change ramps to achieve same results, YES,
.
Look at the 285, 286, 287 ramp series. They are all basically the SAME down low, but finish angle is changes. Just like what would happen when you use clickers.


Do you even know what a TRA looks like inside? Its starting to look like your basing all
this off a Comet, Or P85 clutch. Those clutches are of different design. Although same job, the parts act differently






Shortstop20

Acctually, the washing machine and clutch grip belt in the same way. Via tension between the 2 pulleys The primary pulling the belt one way, and the secondary resisting the pull, causing the belt to "wedge" in the V of the sheave and basically grip.


A clutch cant acctually PINCH the belt because of the sheave angle. This angle makes the belt ride higher. Only way Pinch, or squich, or grip, whatever you want to call it, is created is from teh other pulley resisting this upward movement and putting tension on the belt

 

[YamaDoo PolCat]

I've held my tongue for a while but I'm just gonna say it. You seem to think your Polar clutch transfers all the available power over a 6000 ft. elevation change with the same setup and then you come here trying to tell people about clutching? It is obvious based on that statement that you don't know much about clutching.

Hey shorty, I'm not sure if you don't believe me, or don't want to believe me. I test run the Polar beside the airport so I know the elevation is 2250' and the map says Sir A is 10,720' so, yup at least 6,000' maybe more when you look at the numbers. I've never seen a clutch do this before.

I don't know why you should be so surprised, did you think somebody wasn't going to make a better mouse trap one day? Maybe your experience is only with the TRA, but you'll get over that. The sun is setting on the TRA, just too out of date now. The TRA was never designed to go in the mountains, so I don't know why people think it must work on the mountain as well as it does on the trails. But it doesn't and shouldn't be expect to work out of it's design range. It is not designed for HP changes or dead weight variations.

I can see by your post .."A belt pulley system on a washing machine isn't comparable to a CVT system on a snowmobile. They do not grip the belt in the same way..." ..that you do not understand how a belt drive system works. You sound kind of young, so I think you can use as search on the web better than I can and you will find records of huge power plants that use pulleys that hold multi-groove pulleys, running mutibelts or serpentine like you moms car. Belts transfer power using the side contact of the belt not the bottom of the pulley. So the belt would never know whether it was running on a fixed pulley style or a variable width pulley like those used in a roof top Make-up Air unit, just you would know. In any case "Yes, Virginia" there is no difference, the belt grips the same way, always has.

Relax, don't worry, there is always something new coming along that is better.

 

[Original Tetonice]

OK,
1st I'll ask you to leave DT outa this, just cause your not welcome there. no need to through insults


And second, \
In operation of the clutch, When engine is RUNNING, and your making a pull. The RAMPS DO NOT MOVE when referenced to the crank shaft, or the rollers fro that matter The ramps are just a PATH THAT THE ROLLERS PUSH ON, WHICH DETERMIN HOW FAR IN THE SHEAVE WILL MOVE

Like a treadmill. the ramos are like a treadmill, that you run on... Your the rollers. And the clickers, well, thats setting what ANGLE the tredmill is at. Does it matter that said treadmill weighs 200# or 250# NO


THINK ABOUT IT FOR A MOMENT

But But when you pull over and stop your sled and determined that clicker #4 is to high of a clicker setting and you prefer to go back down to clicker #2 what do you do to return the ramp/ramp profile back to clicker #2...Can you please help an Ahole out i would like to hear your theory or from anyone else as to how this occures

OT

 

[banditpowdercoat]

But But when you pull over and stop your sled and determined that clicker #4 is to high of a clicker setting and you prefer to go back down to clicker #2 what do you do to return the ramp profile back to #2...Can you please help an Ahole out.

OT

You change clickers. That changes the ramp angle. That doesnt change the fact that the Clutch doesnt care how heavy the ramo is in a TRA. In a P85, or Comet style ckutch, the ramp is the flyweight, so yes, those clutches it matter. But Not on a TRA

 

[Original Tetonice]

OK, now your just being an ahole and starting to pee me off

Never said changing clickers allows you to throw in a different ramp. BUT, it is changing ramp ANGLE. Could you not change ramps to achieve same results, YES,
.
Look at the 285, 286, 287 ramp series. They are all basically the SAME down low, but finish angle is changes. Just like what would happen when you use clickers.


Do you even know what a TRA looks like inside? Its starting to look like your basing all
this off a Comet, Or P85 clutch. Those clutches are of different design. Although same job, the parts act differently

******************************************************************************
NO, changing clickers positions does not imitate a ramps profile. You need to get re-educated.....And your lesson begins with answering, when on clicker #4 and clicking down to clicker #2 how do the ramps when set on clicker #4 return to clicker #2

 

[Original Tetonice]

You change clickers. That changes the ramp angle. That doesnt change the fact that the Clutch doesnt care how heavy the ramo is in a TRA. In a P85, or Comet style ckutch, the ramp is the flyweight, so yes, those clutches it matter. But Not on a TRA

QUOTE : You change clickers, That changes the ramp angle......Is that your final answer ?



OT

 

[banditpowdercoat]

OK, now your just being an ahole and starting to pee me off

Never said changing clickers allows you to throw in a different ramp. BUT, it is changing ramp ANGLE. Could you not change ramps to achieve same results, YES,
.
Look at the 285, 286, 287 ramp series. They are all basically the SAME down low, but finish angle is changes. Just like what would happen when you use clickers.


Do you even know what a TRA looks like inside? Its starting to look like your basing all
this off a Comet, Or P85 clutch. Those clutches are of different design. Although same job, the parts act differently

******************************************************************************
NO, changing clickers positions does not imitate a ramps profile. You need to get re-educated.....And your lesson begins with answering, when on clicker #4 and clicking down to clicker #2 how do the ramps when set on clicker #4 return to clicker #2

what the hell are you trying to say? The ramps shift their angle with the clickers, YES they move that way, BUT, that movement is NOT to be calculated as flyweight mass to work with the spring, like you stating in your calculations.

ONLY the arm weight. Rollers, pin, washers, cotterpin and the arm itself. These are the only things who's weight can be used in the force equasion. Ramps are not involved when concerning their weight. The ramps are part of the govenor cup. Sould the whole cup be included in your calculation too???

 

[Original Tetonice]

what the hell are you trying to say? The ramps shift their angle with the clickers, YES they move that way, BUT, that movement is NOT to be calculated as flyweight mass to work with the spring, like you stating in your calculations.

ONLY the arm weight. Rollers, pin, washers, cotterpin and the arm itself. These are the only things who's weight can be used in the force equasion. Ramps are not involved when concerning their weight. The ramps are part of the govenor cup. Sould the whole cup be included in your calculation too???

Dude shut your mouth and listen up you can't answer the question correctly so i will answer it for you.

If you ever get a chance to take the TRA clicker completely apart you will notice that each # it is calibrated. Moving the ramp from #2 through #5 at the factory calibrated position the ramp will rest stationary on the clicker # during operation.....Now listen carefully, when clicking down from #5 to #2 the ramps drops & move by its self from the centrifical force once the motor is turned on to rest at the lower clicker # calibration settings.... The ramps move slightly on there own when adjusting your clicker down from #5 to #2

You can take that to the bank,

OT