Dude it is pretty clear that you are completely confused and not able to seperate weight from rollers from ramps to how the clickers function. And the ramp are stationary and are not moveable.
Yor confused dude.
OT
Ramps in the TRA, how they work and how they effect performance.
- Thread starter tollen77
- Start date
Dude it is pretty clear that you are completely confused and not able to seperate weight from rollers from ramps to how the clickers function. And the ramp are stationary and are not moveable.
Yor confused dude.
OT
DIRECT quote from online dictionary....
ad·just
3. To adapt or conform, as to new conditions: "able to adjust themselves to their environment"
sounds sorta like what happens when the clickers are moved. they adjust to the new condition (clicker change), then they are there forever and might as well be part of the governor cap, the ramp doesnt move during the normal operation of a TRA clutch therefor is unimportant in considering in your mass calculation.
The movement you speak of is centri***al force finishing the adjustment, if the ramp didnt MOVE then the clicker change would have NO affect, I have NEVER said the ramp did not move as part of the clicker adjustment, you just wont admit that the movement you speak of is part of an adjustment, once the adjustment is complete, NO MORE MOVEMENT OCCURS!!!!!
I completely admit that during the adjustment process movement occurs, just this movement does not not make the ramp create force into the flyweight in the sense we are thinking of. The ramp CANNOT move when the motor is running, if it does, somehow magical centripital forces are occuring larger then those of the centri***al forces of the arms and weights. The only forces the ramp creates is outwards onto the governor cap, but it is less then the force required to warp or alter the cup, so the ramp just sits and is forced against the wall, sorta like riding the Zipper ride at the fair, except the weights unlike people cannot create forces inwards on there own, as weights are inanimate objects. i hope this settles all arguments we want.
The only thing you need to say besides I am right is please explain why the weights have to be put into the mass calculations, and then please finish all your math so i can view it and we shall see how it looks then. And by math i wanna see units and some physics, then we will see who gets anything. Understanding the fundemental forces at play is important to making something work at an ideal state.
ad·just
3. To adapt or conform, as to new conditions: "able to adjust themselves to their environment"
sounds sorta like what happens when the clickers are moved. they adjust to the new condition (clicker change), then they are there forever and might as well be part of the governor cap, the ramp doesnt move during the normal operation of a TRA clutch therefor is unimportant in considering in your mass calculation.
The movement you speak of is centri***al force finishing the adjustment, if the ramp didnt MOVE then the clicker change would have NO affect, I have NEVER said the ramp did not move as part of the clicker adjustment, you just wont admit that the movement you speak of is part of an adjustment, once the adjustment is complete, NO MORE MOVEMENT OCCURS!!!!!
I completely admit that during the adjustment process movement occurs, just this movement does not not make the ramp create force into the flyweight in the sense we are thinking of. The ramp CANNOT move when the motor is running, if it does, somehow magical centripital forces are occuring larger then those of the centri***al forces of the arms and weights. The only forces the ramp creates is outwards onto the governor cap, but it is less then the force required to warp or alter the cup, so the ramp just sits and is forced against the wall, sorta like riding the Zipper ride at the fair, except the weights unlike people cannot create forces inwards on there own, as weights are inanimate objects. i hope this settles all arguments we want.
The only thing you need to say besides I am right is please explain why the weights have to be put into the mass calculations, and then please finish all your math so i can view it and we shall see how it looks then. And by math i wanna see units and some physics, then we will see who gets anything. Understanding the fundemental forces at play is important to making something work at an ideal state.
You guys know that this argument was done last year with Big John and Teton for about 3 months? I'm sure the thread is still here somewhere. Hehehe.
What?? Now you just twisting your own words?? Your to much
Ya know, I just took my wife out to the shop and showed her 2what rollers, ramps and the spring is. She understands what the ramps do. and that their weight is irelavent in how the clutch operates.
THATS what I am asking you, WHY does the RAMP WEIGHT matter? You posted a weight earlier
Explane why the ramp weight would matter? sKool Me on that, oh great one
Cool were they stir crazy waiting for snow too???
Nuff said, all you have managed to say during this rediculous debate is that during adjustment movement happens, and the rest of us are asking how on earth the ramp weight has anything to do with clutching. OT, if you have some ramps that are laying around, i will test them for you, i will run the sled with em, tune it as such, and then drill a 1/4" hole in each one of them and then see how she runs. This would be like having to add pinweight when removing a starter ring gear, all it does is help the motor spin up faster as there is less resistance on the crank, not affecting the moving outer sheave of the clutch.
Back to the regulary scheduled program, so in theory, i wanna tune for clicker 1 at the lowest elevations i have in the deepest snow, thatway the only way i need to go is up, my thinking is then i can run the least pin weight, allow for less weight to be spun up initially, then the motor can do less work to spin max rpm, Or will the result in not enough belt pressure down low??
yeah, trust me, i did it then to. i think he still has fun doing it, and i have fun yelling at him. oh well, still a good time. but like i said, lets get back to ramps, im done with OT.
S
shortstop20
Well-known member
He has no proof, it's just words and numbers that are thrown together in an attempt to impress people.
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I am not sure. I would think, if you do that, may be to low pressure. I have allways heard to tune for 3 on an average day. Then you can go up or down. I was told(cant remember by who) that making a LARGE clicker change, like 1-5 is not that effective. you should change ramps if you need that much change. I think its crankshop or one of the makers of the quick clickers, the ones that use theer own exxectric shaft, that its only like a 3 position change. They made it different than Doo's Maybe a reason fro it?
Ok, I'm new to all this tra stuff since I will be picking up my first doo sunday after 20 years on a polaris. I understand the p-85 but this is a bit greek to me. Is my following understanding right on the ramp and clicker relationship? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
When the engine is off and the clicker is in position 1 the ramp could be either resting against the clicker, or it could be pivoted up and away from the clicker. Now lets assume you never installed the arms in the clutch. Once the engine is started the centri***al force will throw it against the clicker where it would stay until the engine is shut off again. As long as the clutch is spinning the ramp must stay in contact with the clicker. It doesnt look like the pivot angle is there for it to lift itself away from the clicker. Looks impossible for the ramp to try and lift up off the clicker as long as the clutch is spinning. As I turn up my clicker towards position 5, I am allowing the ramp to innitially get thrown out a bit further the second the engine is started, effectively giving the arms an easier slope or angle to overcome. When I hit the gas, the pin weight on the end of the arms wins the fight against the starting rate of the spring therefore the rollers and arms race up the ramp and force the sheaves together. As the rpm increases the forces on the arms increases but the finish rate on the spring also increases so the sheaves don't close to quick which could load the engine more than it is capable of putting out. Are we better off with light pins and a light finish rate or heavy pins and a high finish rate? As I let off the gas the centri***al forces lessen and the arms are overtaken by the spring and get pushed back down the ramp back to the starting position, therefore opening up the sheaves. Would a combo of light pins and lower finish rates give a quicker backshift and enable the whole system to sense loads better? Am I right on my understanding or am I all screwed up?
When the engine is off and the clicker is in position 1 the ramp could be either resting against the clicker, or it could be pivoted up and away from the clicker. Now lets assume you never installed the arms in the clutch. Once the engine is started the centri***al force will throw it against the clicker where it would stay until the engine is shut off again. As long as the clutch is spinning the ramp must stay in contact with the clicker. It doesnt look like the pivot angle is there for it to lift itself away from the clicker. Looks impossible for the ramp to try and lift up off the clicker as long as the clutch is spinning. As I turn up my clicker towards position 5, I am allowing the ramp to innitially get thrown out a bit further the second the engine is started, effectively giving the arms an easier slope or angle to overcome. When I hit the gas, the pin weight on the end of the arms wins the fight against the starting rate of the spring therefore the rollers and arms race up the ramp and force the sheaves together. As the rpm increases the forces on the arms increases but the finish rate on the spring also increases so the sheaves don't close to quick which could load the engine more than it is capable of putting out. Are we better off with light pins and a light finish rate or heavy pins and a high finish rate? As I let off the gas the centri***al forces lessen and the arms are overtaken by the spring and get pushed back down the ramp back to the starting position, therefore opening up the sheaves. Would a combo of light pins and lower finish rates give a quicker backshift and enable the whole system to sense loads better? Am I right on my understanding or am I all screwed up?
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Your rigth, other than the ramp doesnt fall off the clicker. It is held by a spring pin. Bolted. It pivots only when adjusting it. But thats it. The ramp doesnt fall off the clicker when the engine shuts off.
You know p85 thats good, the TRA is same, but kinda flip flop. in the P85, the rllers are stationary, and the ramp is also the flyweight.
The TRA, the ramp is stationary, and the Roller is the flyweight.
It also seems, that moreso in Powder, with the newer Doo's they are favoring a stonger spring and heavie weight combo to more level the RPM fluctuation's. I dont know why, but thats one of the things we are trying to find out. Why is a light weight light spring combo more touchy and erratic than a heavy weight/spring. even if you do the force calculations to get the same forces, They seem to act differently
Hope that helps
Original Tetonice, just forget it.....
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The way i see it is like having a bigger flywheel in a car, it may take more energy to spin it up, but it takes small fluctuation in load much better, allowing the motor to run constant RPM. need snow to get mine checked out and see how mu shift out is and all that jazz. and with a floating secondary should help keep things a little better, as the RT does wrap the thing up a little making belt aligment and clutch heat nothing but trouble.
Yea, makes sense, that it would absorbe small changes in load but, would it make it slow to react to big changes in load.
Mt Sledder,Ask yourself how does the ramp arrive back at # 2 when you had the ramp adjusted at #5.....By turn the clicker up in # the clicker pushes the ramp, However when turning your clickers back down to # 2 they fall/move into the #2 position by the cenrtifical force of the primary upon initial turn on of the motor.
All anyone has to do is open the primary move the clicker from #5 to #2 and in place od centrifical force just push on the ramps which will move until the ramp is rested on #2.
OT
Not adding enough weight to make a heavy flywheel effect. So the added weight to the clutch won't really effect the unloaded acceleration of the engine like a flywheel would
Also, Just re red your post Mtsledder. If you scroll back to the picture I posted. The clicker will RAISE the end of the ramp as clicker number is increased. Lower the end of the ramp as number decreased.
Lower ramp angle allows the rollers to move out more, and, through leverage and extra centri***al force of the rollers being out further. that attemps to close the sheave more. And thus loads the engine
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Boy, you must be slow. Did your momma drop you on your head?
He has no proof, it's just words and numbers that are thrown together in an attempt to impress people.
The only ones that need proof have either never owned a TRA or never opened there TRA to know what is going on inside.
Ive owned nothing BUT Skidoo. Bought my first NEW one in 96. First sled, Umm I thnk it was in 80 or someting like that.
Im STILL waiting for YOUR proof that the ramp weight matters in setting up your clutch in a TRA
yep no idea, seeing as i just busted the primary open on my new sled yesterday, and had my 600 clutch open plenty of times, i understand whats going on, im just not always sure how affecting one of the variable affects the others. as for you little joke for mt.sledder, yeah he can open it up and move it by hand, smart one dude, i was making an example earlier of the most innafective way to make a point to you, no need to confuse those who dont fully get the TRA function.
Like bandit said, and Joey(DYNAMOE^JOE) says over and over, flyweight mass determins RPM, clickers determine how far away from the motor the weight can spin. the ramp is just the path to getting farther away.
Heres the best example i can think of. If you stand and hold your hands out and spin in cicrles as fast as you can, try as hard as possible, then move them closer... you will spin faster. Now put some weight in your hands and try to spin as fast as before, you cant because of the added weight(pin weight) you unlike your motor arent quite as able to limit RPM based on intricate clutch system. basically, you want the clutch to force the engine to spin its peak RPM while getting the flyweight as FAR as possible away from the crank center allowing the weight to be doing the most work as far as clamping the sheaves together.
The REV is a great sled. As long as you are a flatland rider you will like the TRA, but if you ride mountains you are in for a bit of a disappointment. Not in the sled, just the TRA. I never ran the TRA in the past as people had warned me against it, but when I bought my first 04 REV I had my first introduction to the TRA in the mountains.
Like you I had certain expectations of the primary, but the TRA is very limited in what you can doo with it in the mountains. Took me a few years and a waste of money, but I had to try. Anyway I run an aftermarket primary now on my 07, and you are just going to have to decide what you will put up with, and the level of performance you need. The TRA lives under the bench now. I keep it for a spare just in case, because a ride on the TRA is better than no ride at all! And that's as good as it gets.
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