Ramps in the TRA, how they work and how they effect performance.

[Wheel House Motorsports]

OT, the weight of the ramps DOES matter, but if BRP wanted to put smaller lighter ones, BRP would just add mass to the rest of the clutch to make up for the lighter weight. Like mentioned above, the ramps are part of a whole governor cap, if BRP wanted lighter ramps they would make the governor cup equally heavier to balance the thing out in the end...

As for the ramps, your seriously the ONLY person who i have ever heard argue the point. ALL the ramps do is spin circualry, they are adjustable, but not part of the calculated mass, all you do is add them into an equation, and then basically divide them back out, simple math error, but you just dont seem to get it. Your logic would say the a PSI dial-a-dome head is movable because you can adjust the way it sits. the air fuel still hits it the same, but you are able to adjust a charactersitic of the motor (compression ratio) while it is off, same with the clutch.

 

[banditpowdercoat]

Dude shut your mouth and listen up you can't answer the question correctly so i will answer it for you.

If you ever get a chance to take the TRA clicker completely apart you will notice that each # it is calibrated. Moving the ramp from #2 through #5 at the factory calibrated position the ramp will rest stationary on the clicker # during operation.....Now listen carefully, when clicking down from #5 to #2 the ramps drops & move by its self from the centrifical force once the motor is turned on to rest at the lower clicker # calibration settings.... The ramps move slightly on there own when adjusting your clicker down from #5 to #2

You can take that to the bank,

OT

I have 2 apart on my bench RIGHT NOW.

The ramps move to the new clicked position, AFTER THAT they DO NOT MOVE. untill clickers change. WHY would a part that does not move, be calculated with the rollers as a MASS?? Think about what YOUR saying

And last time I looked, Im typing, not talking

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

Now listen carefully, when clicking down from #5 to #2 the ramps drops & move by its self from the centrifical force once the motor is turned on to rest at the lower clicker # calibration settings.... The ramps move slightly on there on when adjusting your clicker down from #5 to #2

You can take that to the bank,

OT

so if i took a clutch apart and forced the ramp back on its own would then make it non movable?? same result, just by letting the motor do it it allows us to keep the clutch together while doing it. it takes the pulling over of the motor for an infinately small amount of time to stick the ramp back into place.

your argument is like saying if i took my clutch apart and took a screwdriver and pulled the ramps off the clickers offset cog, while staying on the same clicker number, that now when i do flyweight calculations i have to add the ramps in, just because they werent seated tight. how you argue only means that the ramp is movable when clicking down, not up.

The bolts that hold the ramp in place are VERY tight so the ramp doesnt become loose, so thats why they dont just fall into place, it doesnt matter how they get back to seated on the clicker cog, just that it takes a little bit of energy to place them there, and because we are to lazy to open the clutch up in the deep snow we just let the motor do the work, sorta like when a clutch is stuck on the crank and you just turn to motor over and let it spin off. it doesnt mean it is now some totally different peice of magic, just that the motor, not you did the work!!!

 

[shortstop20]

Shortstop20

Acctually, the washing machine and clutch grip belt in the same way. Via tension between the 2 pulleys The primary pulling the belt one way, and the secondary resisting the pull, causing the belt to "wedge" in the V of the sheave and basically grip.


A clutch cant acctually PINCH the belt because of the sheave angle. This angle makes the belt ride higher. Only way Pinch, or squich, or grip, whatever you want to call it, is created is from teh other pulley resisting this upward movement and putting tension on the belt

I realize that. What I meant is that since a CVT has two sheaves that are on each side of the belt and a washing machine has just a pulley(with not much for sides, other than a little ridge) it's different. I guess I didn't explain my point very well.

I can see by your post .."A belt pulley system on a washing machine isn't comparable to a CVT system on a snowmobile. They do not grip the belt in the same way..." ..that you do not understand how a belt drive system works. You sound kind of young, so I think you can use as search on the web better than I can and you will find records of huge power plants that use pulleys that hold multi-groove pulleys, running mutibelts or serpentine like you moms car. Belts transfer power using the side contact of the belt not the bottom of the pulley. So the belt would never know whether it was running on a fixed pulley style or a variable width pulley like those used in a roof top Make-up Air unit, just you would know. In any case "Yes, Virginia" there is no difference, the belt grips the same way, always has.

Like I said I guess I didn't explain my point very well. What I meant is that since a CVT has two sheaves that are on each side of the belt and a washing machine has just a pulley(with not much for sides, other than a little ridge) it's different. Yes I do know how they grip the belt but your assessment that slipping of the belt plays no part in the heat generated is wrong. I guess you could say overtension in the secondary is causing the belt to slip in the primary(or vice versa the example). It could just be the fact that there's not enough weight(or in the case of the TRA, the correct roller or clicker position) in order to balance out the tension between the two clutches. What I am getting at is that you can't just say it's overtension, every sled and setup is different.

FYI I ride a Polaris at the moment.

 

[Original Tetonice]

so if i took a clutch apart and forced the ramp back on its own would then make it non movable?? same result, just by letting the motor do it it allows us to keep the clutch together while doing it. it takes the pulling over of the motor for an infinately small amount of time to stick the ramp back into place.

your argument is like saying if i took my clutch apart and took a screwdriver and pulled the ramps off the clickers offset cog, while staying on the same clicker number, that now when i do flyweight calculations i have to add the ramps in, just because they werent seated tight. how you argue only means that the ramp is movable when clicking down, not up.

The bolts that hold the ramp in place are VERY tight so the ramp doesnt become loose, so thats why they dont just fall into place, it doesnt matter how they get back to seated on the clicker cog, just that it takes a little bit of energy to place them there, and because we are to lazy to open the clutch up in the deep snow we just let the motor do the work, sorta like when a clutch is stuck on the crank and you just turn to motor over and let it spin off. it doesnt mean it is now some totally different peice of magic, just that the motor, not you did the work!!!

Dude, either the ramps arer Stationary & Not Moveable as you claim OR they Move reardless of how slight during initial operation.

And when your out on the trail adjusting your clicker down from #4 to #2 theres a pretty strong chance your not going to take the TRA apart and push down on the ramps by hand.

Dude you have been Schooled.

OT

 

[shortstop20]

The ramps are moveable(when the clickers are being adjusted and for the short time that they are away from their normal position). Nobody is denying that OT, you are taking a very small detail and twisting people's words around.

The ramps are not moveable once they are put into their normal position and the clutch is spinning, thus they are irrelevant in the calculations.

You are the only person that denies this, what does that tell you?

 

[banditpowdercoat]

Dude, either the ramps arer Stationary & Not Moveable as you claim OR they Move reardless of how slight during initial operation.

And when your out on the trail adjusting your clicker down from #4 to #2 theres a pretty strong chance your not going to take the TRA apart and push down on the ramps by hand.

Dude you have been Schooled.

OT

What schooling?

How do the ramps slight moving have to do with your force equasion?

Originally Posted by Original Tetonice View Post
It's the other way around it's the heat making the rpm bounce around......

As for 2 much weight you need weight to run at the motors factory calibrations. If the 800R is calibrated to peak at 8150 rpm your going to need the weight to acheive those rpm's. Weight is not an option

The addition of adding or subtracting clutch weight in the TRA primary should only be used for acheiving and maintaining peak rpm as you tune your sled. If i want to grab the belt harder im not going to add or subtract weight in the primary nor do i advise anyone else to do so.

2 thing could occur either you have 2 much finish on the primary spring or your ramp profile is to steep. When useing a steep profile ramp you slow the shift becuase it's harder for the roller to go up the steep ramp into higher shift ratios thus causing added friction in the process. Or you could also have a combination of both.

The TRA need weight between the ramps, roller/arms X 3 = 300 grams approx. to operate add 16 grams of pinweight to each roller and your near 340 grams of weight plus or minus.

each ramp 63 grams
each roller/ arm 34 grams



OT

The ramps move to ADJUST the angle as per the clicker setting. The do this once, upon first spinning the clutch. When OPERATING the clutch, the ramps NEVER MOVE. the roller moves on the ramps, but the ramps do not impart any centri***al force what will help compress the spring and close the clutch

WHy is the ramp weight in here?? explane this to me please

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

Dude, either the ramps arer Stationary & Not Moveable as you claim OR they Move reardless of how slight during initial operation.

And when your out on the trail adjusting your clicker down from #4 to #2 theres a pretty strong chance your not going to take the TRA apart and push down on the ramps by hand.

Dude you have been Schooled.

OT

Here goes each one broken down onto why your logic is flawed, and you basically dont make a specific point about your side and say i got schooled.

#1 The ramps are as movable as any other bolt on part of my sled, just because i can adjust it doesnt make it movable, im assuming you consider the selectors on the NON x-package sleds movable then??? because you can select different option on them, and the spring forces the thing down when you adjust them for a lighter rider??? Same for the secondary, does it make the belt deflection adjustment movable because you can stop the sled and take an adjust it doesnt make it movable in mine and anyone elses opinion. yes you can adjust them moving them, but under normal operating conditions when the sled is being run, do they move anywhere but in a circular direction, no. We arent clutching the sled for the first millionth of a second when the ramp moves, and thats what this whole thing is about, not if it has to seat itself when the clickers are adjusted. Your argument is very similar to calling the seat movable because when you sit on it, it moves.

#2 I said, DUH nobody is going to do that, but because It can be done, and if it was done, would that make the clicker NON-movable because it didnt go anywhere when you start the sled, because i adjusted myself?? All you did was say its a bad idea to do it that way, so did I, how does that mean im wrong?? you agreed with me and then said i got schooled, that is some hard logic for me to argue with. I always forget that when i undo parts and then reattach them differently that makes them movable, With the way you apply the word movable OT, then ANY SINGLE PART of the sled you are able to RE(MOVE) or add back to the sled is then movable, but not for the sake of normal operation which therefor makes your argument NULL due to the fact you are arguing about a condition that has NOT ONE SINGLE AFFECT on clutching, and that is the weight of the ramp.

Thank you come again.

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

the roller moves on the ramps, but the ramps do not impart any centri***al force what will help compress the spring and close the clutch

WHy is the ramp weight in here?? explane this to me please

That is EXACTLY what I was trying to say, so what it is capable of moving, the ramps still dont factor into the rotating mass of the clutch parts.

Again, you have a point, i will give you that, unfortunately, it does nothing to support your original arguement or give your "adding of the ramps to the total rotating mass" logic any solid backing.

You proved that when a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to hear it, it DOES make a sound, but what does it have to do with adding the weight of the ramp to the rotating mass??? NOTHING WHATSOEVER!!!!

Are running boards movable?? The force of gravity acting on the rider flexes them, does that make them a movable part??

 

[Original Tetonice]

Dude if it helps you any your not the 1st moron i've run into on the subject of the TRA....And the trouble with stationary diagrams is they do not explain the truth as to what happens when those parts in the diagram are moving.

FYI i have seen the same diagrams in the Skidoo race book for 20 years,and guess what the parts still MOVE the same. LOL

OT

 

[banditpowdercoat]

Dude if it helps you any your not the 1st moron i've run into on the subject of the TRA....And the trouble with stationary diagrams is they do not explain the truth as to what happens when those parts in the diagram are moving.

FYI i have seen the same diagrams in the Skidoo race book for 20 years,and guess what the parts still work the same. LOL

OT

So i'm a MORON? So cool that everyone is so tough behind a keyboard. Watch it, because Defamation of Character is an offense punishable by LAW


Why is it YOUR the only one that thinks this way?

And your telling me, that all the time, when your riding on a set clicker position, the ramps are MOVING, just like the arms/rollers? Sure the WHOLE clutch is rotating. But Were talking Centrifu-al force here.

The clutch spins, which through this spinning action, the rollers are flung out against the ramps. The rollers PUSH against the ramps and move the sheave closed.

IF the ramps were movable, when the rollers pushed on them, they would move out of the way. But no, they park themselves on the Clicker and DO NOT MOVE

Ohh you been looking at skidoo manuals for the lat 20 years?? so you were looking at them when you were 2?

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

its weird how every time somebody makes a point you just tell them they are wrong, or a moron, but produce no logical thought process other then we are all just idiots and you have looked at drawings, I as well as various others have shot down your point until it looked like swish cheese and all you have managed to do is say is its still cheese.

As far as i know that until you can prove something wrong its correct, and you havent even tried to prove it wrong, you sorta skipped a step buddy!!

 

[Original Tetonice]

its weird how every time somebody makes a point you just tell them they are wrong, or a moron, but produce no logical thought process other then we are all just idiots and you have looked at drawings, I as well as various others have shot down your point until it looked like swish cheese and all you have managed to do is say is its still cheese.

As far as i know that until you can prove something wrong its correct, and you havent even tried to prove it wrong, you sorta skipped a step buddy!!

Dube your wrong in your theory that the ramp do not move when the TRA clickers go down from #4 to #2.... Get Over It !!!

OT

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

Dube your wrong in your theory that the ramp do not move when the TRA clickers go down from #4 to #2.... Get Over It !!!

OT

I know it moves, it is being ADJUSTED, I have never said it doesnt move when you ADJUST SOMWthing but why does it have to be calculated into the rotational mass?? during normal clutch operation they DONT move. Im not arguing that they have to move about 1mm then they stay put UNTIL CHANGED AGAIN!!!! Is a needle jet on sled a movable part?? cuz when you screw it in it moves, but does that make it a movable part NO!!!

Im making points that are pertinant to this thread and clutch tuning, you are proving that when you adjust something it moves.

why does this movement affect clutchig?? it DOEST, thank YOU, come again.

 

[Original Tetonice]

So i'm a MORON? So cool that everyone is so tough behind a keyboard. Watch it, because Defamation of Character is an offense punishable by LAW


Why is it YOUR the only one that thinks this way?

And your telling me, that all the time, when your riding on a set clicker position, the ramps are MOVING, just like the arms/rollers? Sure the WHOLE clutch is rotating. But Were talking Centrifu-al force here.

The clutch spins, which through this spinning action, the rollers are flung out against the ramps. The rollers PUSH against the ramps and move the sheave closed.

IF the ramps were movable, when the rollers pushed on them, they would move out of the way. But no, they park themselves on the Clicker and DO NOT MOVE

Ohh you been looking at skidoo manuals for the lat 20 years?? so you were looking at them when you were 2?

Dude your wrong regarding your theory that ramp are stationary & non-moveable when the TRA clickers are clicked down from clicker #4 to clicker #2. Get Over It...By the way i never said that when your riding/driving the sled the ramp are movng. You should read again

 

[Original Tetonice]

I know it moves, it is being ADJUSTED, I have never said it doesnt move when you ADJUST SOMWthing but why does it have to be calculated into the rotational mass?? during normal clutch operation they DONT move. Im not arguing that they have to move about 1mm then they stay put UNTIL CHANGED AGAIN!!!! Is a needle jet on sled a movable part?? cuz when you screw it in it moves, but does that make it a movable part NO!!!

Im making points that are pertinant to this thread and clutch tuning, you are proving that when you adjust something it moves.

why does this movement affect clutchig?? it DOEST, thank YOU, come again.

Sorry Dude i may a mixed you up with another dude, regarding "Stationary Ramps & Not Moveable"

 

[banditpowdercoat]

I know it moves, it is being ADJUSTED, but why does it have to be calculated into the rotational mass?? during normal clutch operation they DONT move. Im not arguing that they have to move about 1mm then they stay put UNTIL CHANGED AGAIN!!!!

why does this movement affect clutchig?? it DOEST, thank YOU, come again.

Apu from The Simpsons, I love it


Seriously, I think were wasting our breath here Ski. Either that, or he knows were right, and just wants to see how long we will play. Either way, from now on, I am not paying any attention to anything OT types.

Someone earlier in this thread asked him to not kill it with his theory on ramps. But, RIP, another thread killed by OT.
I was acctually having fun tossing legit theory's and having discussions on the TRA, ramps, and clutching in general. Now, Thx to OT, I just don't care...

If we want to get back on track here, feel free, Im game for that. But this section of the discussion is now CLOSED

 

[Original Tetonice]

/fall

So i'm a MORON? So cool that everyone is so tough behind a keyboard. Watch it, because Defamation of Character is an offense punishable by LAW


Why is it YOUR the only one that thinks this way?

And your telling me, that all the time, when your riding on a set clicker position, the ramps are MOVING, just like the arms/rollers? Sure the WHOLE clutch is rotating. But Were talking Centrifu-al force here.

The clutch spins, which through this spinning action, the rollers are flung out against the ramps. The rollers PUSH against the ramps and move the sheave closed.

IF the ramps were movable, when the rollers pushed on them, they would move out of the way. But no, they park themselves on the Clicker and DO NOT MOVE

Ohh you been looking at skidoo manuals for the lat 20 years?? so you were looking at them when you were 2?

When clicking the TRA clickers from #2 through #5 they rest on the calibrated clicker, however when clicking down from #5 to #2 the Fall/Drop on there own caused by the centrifical force of the clutch on the initial start of the motor, therefore they move on there own and rest on the lower calibrated clicker #. Its That Simple

I can see that some of you guys willbe stumped for awhile LOL

OT

 

[banditpowdercoat]

Dude your wrong regarding your theory that ramp are stationary & non-moveable when the TRA clickers are clicked down from clicker #4 to clicker #2. Get Over It...By the way i never said that when your riding/driving the sled the ramp are movng. You should read again

Ohh but in this post, you basically DO. By taking the ramp weight into consideration..... nuff said

Originally Posted by Original Tetonice View Post
It's the other way around it's the heat making the rpm bounce around......

As for 2 much weight you need weight to run at the motors factory calibrations. If the 800R is calibrated to peak at 8150 rpm your going to need the weight to acheive those rpm's. Weight is not an option

The addition of adding or subtracting clutch weight in the TRA primary should only be used for acheiving and maintaining peak rpm as you tune your sled. If i want to grab the belt harder im not going to add or subtract weight in the primary nor do i advise anyone else to do so.

2 thing could occur either you have 2 much finish on the primary spring or your ramp profile is to steep. When useing a steep profile ramp you slow the shift becuase it's harder for the roller to go up the steep ramp into higher shift ratios thus causing added friction in the process. Or you could also have a combination of both.

The TRA need weight between the ramps, roller/arms X 3 = 300 grams approx. to operate add 16 grams of pinweight to each roller and your near 340 grams of weight plus or minus.

each ramp 63 grams
each roller/ arm 34 grams



OT

 

[banditpowdercoat]

/fall

When clicking the TRA clickers from #2 through #5 they rest on the calibrated clicker, however when clicking down from #5 to #2 the Fall/Drop on there own caused by the centrifical force of the clutch on the initial start of the motor, therefore they move on there own and rest on the lower calibrated clicker #. Its That Simple

OT

No SH!7