Ramps in the TRA, how they work and how they effect performance.

[Dynamo^Joe]

Just as if you watch which way the wind blows, you continuously regurgitate other people's comments about how the parts work. One guy says this, then in an obvious way, you repeat them, then one guy says that and in an obvious way, you repeat them too -
You miss bits and pieces in your explanations and too many times they are just outright wrong.
ot, brush up on the principles ok and you'll be able to complete your thoughts in correct fashion.
....just a little good advice for you
thanks.

"Quotes Aaen/BRP" Regarding the primary - Aggressive: The clutch exerts more forceful energy using less engine rpm.

Out of the 41X series ramps...
414 is most aggressive - At the start of the shift, the clutch exerts more forceful energy using less engine rpm.
413 is less aggressive - At the start of the shift, the clutch exerts less forceful energy, producing higher engine rpm than the 414
415 is less aggressive - At the start of the shift, the clutch exerts less forceful energy, producing higher engine rpm than the 413

Depending on gearing you can safely say that around (lower gearing)30mph~(higher gearing)40mph track speed all the ramps blend into the same curve right to full shift.

A little info, out of the 41X series ramps...
410, 412, 417 are less aggressive - At the end of the shift
Their ramp angles increase - The clutch exerts less forceful energy producing higher engine rpm.

 

[Original Tetonice]

You guys know that this argument was done last year with Big John and Teton for about 3 months? I'm sure the thread is still here somewhere. Hehehe.

If you do the search BJ finally admited that the ramps move. Some guy's are just slow thinkers. LOL

OT

 

[Original Tetonice]

Just as if you watch which way the wind blows, you continuously regurgitate other people's comments about how the parts work. One guy says this, then in an obvious way, you repeat them, then one guy says that and in an obvious way, you repeat them too -
You miss bits and pieces in your explanations and too many times they are just outright wrong.
ot, brush up on the principles ok and you'll be able to complete your thoughts in correct fashion.
....just a little good advice for you
thanks.

"Quotes Aaen/BRP" Regarding the primary - Aggressive: The clutch exerts more forceful energy using less engine rpm.

Out of the 41X series ramps...
414 is most aggressive - At the start of the shift, the clutch exerts more forceful energy using less engine rpm.
413 is less aggressive - At the start of the shift, the clutch exerts less forceful energy, producing higher engine rpm than the 414
415 is less aggressive - At the start of the shift, the clutch exerts less forceful energy, producing higher engine rpm than the 413

Depending on gearing you can safely say that around (lower gearing)30mph~(higher gearing)40mph track speed all the ramps blend into the same curve right to full shift.

A little info, out of the 41X series ramps...
410, 412, 417 are less aggressive - At the end of the shift
Their ramp angles increase - The clutch exerts less forceful energy producing higher engine rpm.

Joe i understand the 41 series of ramps, and there not ALL the same as you stated. Period

OT

 

[banditpowdercoat]

If you do the search BJ finally admited that the ramps move. Some guy's are just slow thinkers. LOL

OT

BJ admitted just to SHUT YOU UP

 

[Original Tetonice]

BJ admitted just to SHUT YOU UP

If you only knew how to take your TRA primary apart i would SHUT YOU UP as well.

OT

 

[banditpowdercoat]

If you only knew how to take your TRA primary apart i would SHUT YOU UP as well.

OT

Dude, I've had my primary apart. pretty hard, ya. Take out clutch bolt, insert puller bolt. Sometimes apply heat. SHEESH.


Ohh, I'll save you a step too, everyone says you need a clutch spring compressor tool when your changing the Primary spring. YOU dont. Just remove the 3 allen cap screws. Make sure your looking directly at the spring cap when you remove the last one. It's all good, trust me

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

ot, What makes it frustrating to consider anything you write, it seems you don't read what people write. I'm dead serious in thinking that it seems you have a condition that makes it extremely difficult for you to read, write, and spell despite that you seem to have around average intelligence.

I stated the ramps are made from one ramp - the 414.
I stated these ramps are different in the first 20mph or less.
I stated they are the same ramp curve from 20mph to full shift.

It would look like this...
_ ______ the ramps are ____ ____ one ramp - the 414.
_ ______ _____ _____ ___ _________ __ ___ _____ __ ____.
_ ______ they are the same ramp curve ____ _____ to full shift.

I apologize and try to be more sensitive here so I'll put up an illustration for you to look at, im sure you can see shapes in plain view.

Notice the line at 18mph. When running in snow under heavy load, what track speed are you seeing?
IF you see more than 18mph track speed - THEN the roller is past that 18mph line.
To visualize, imagine the ramp curve divided into 5 equal divided locations.
For tuners running in 20mph to 50mph the roller is dwelling in the mid area of the ramp where the profiles are all even.

So now AFTER 18mph track speed, would the ramps deliver a different personality between the 3 of them? (yes) or (no) answer responds.

 

[Original Tetonice]

Joe, when comparing the 413,414,415 & 419 you will also notice the Height of overall ramps you mention are not the same as well. Taller ramps tend to engage higher as well.

YES the ramps mentioned are similar but the same NO.....And for what it is worth if you can get your TRA to full **** meaning your cruising at over 90 mph the tip of the ramp becomes a mute point....Heck you going over 90 miles per hour.

About the only thing a ramp change will effect at 90 mph is just how fast it took the roller to shift from 0 mph to 90 mph.

OT

 

[banditpowdercoat]

Thx for the pic Joe. That's awesome layout

Would you by chance have a 226 and 294 ramps that I could see a compare pic? I am running 226 right now, and a friend suggested 294. But before I order them I would like to see where the differences are.

 

[Original Tetonice]

The 413, 414, 415, 419 are all the same ramp, made out of a 414.

The 419 produces highest engagement because of a notch then transition to a 414.

The 415 is less aggressive than the 413, 414 (in this order) Producing highest rpms under sustained throttle position.

The 413 is more aggressive than the 415 and produces lower rpms than the 415 but higher rpms than the 414. (under sustained throttle position)

The 414 is the most aggressive, produces lowest rpms under full throttle in low ratios, the clutch pushes hardest. (under sustained throttle position)

Depending on gearing you can safely say that around (lower gearing)30mph~(higher gearing)40mph track speed all the ramps blend into the same curve right to full shift.
Remember the picture comparing the 441 vs 413 and the "ramp angle" at the start of the shift?
The 441 is nearly like the 414 when you put them up side by side...the 414 has slight higher angle, merely a few thousanth.

Joe i agree at the the finish of the tip they are the same, however when i read your post that is not what you write. You start out with a general statement of the ramps being ALL the same.

You know this to be true as well in the mountains above 9000' in deep snow get the roller to get to "full shift" or to the tip of the ramp is diffucalt to acheive as well. So in terms of full shift at the tip of any ramp myself and many other mountain riders have been chasing that overdrive gear as well.....When your at the tip as your diagram indicates that considered TRA's overdrive.

You also need to ask your self on the trail how many riders ride at full shift or at the tip of the ramp ? 90 mph plus !!!! Yah Write, maybe while there typing on the forums. LOL

By the way at the TIP the 414 could be made out of the 413, 415 or 419 at the TIP

OT

 

[Original Tetonice]

Joe i just put the 3 ramps you mentioned side by side and from the mid point to the tip they are slightly differant. So my answr is NO based on the profile of my 3 ramps.

OT

 

[tollen77]

Joe i just put the 3 ramps you mentioned side by side and from the mid point to the tip they are slightly differant. So my answr is NO based on the profile of my 3 ramps.

OT

Is there anything that can be done (by one of the moderators maybe) to filter this from the conversation???


.

 

[SRXtreme]

Where did this idiot (OT) come from? He is worse than a 2 year old. Thanks Joe for the great info.


MODERATORS: KICK OT OFF THE FORUMS AGAIN PLEASE!!!!!!!!

 

[tollen77]

Joe et all;

Lets say I'm heading up the steep and deep and although I still get to full 8,150 RPM, I'd like to try and get up to 8,150 a little faster. I have the stock 413 ramps in my 800 XP. Will moving to a thinner ramp allow my sled to get to RPM a little quicker? A shallower ramp? What are the trade-offs? Let's assume that the snow conditions, altitude, etc... will stay exactly the same.

(Keep in mind, this is just a theoretical question. Just trying to understand the theory a little better so I can make adjustments either way.)


Thanks in advance.



.

 

[Original Tetonice]

ot, What makes it frustrating to consider anything you write, it seems you don't read what people write. I'm dead serious in thinking that it seems you have a condition that makes it extremely difficult for you to read, write, and spell despite that you seem to have around average intelligence.

I stated the ramps are made from one ramp - the 414.
I stated these ramps are different in the first 20mph or less.
I stated they are the same ramp curve from 20mph to full shift.

It would look like this...
_ ______ the ramps are ____ ____ one ramp - the 414.
_ ______ _____ _____ ___ _________ __ ___ _____ __ ____.
_ ______ they are the same ramp curve ____ _____ to full shift.

I apologize and try to be more sensitive here so I'll put up an illustration for you to look at, im sure you can see shapes in plain view.

Notice the line at 18mph. When running in snow under heavy load, what track speed are you seeing?
IF you see more than 18mph track speed - THEN the roller is past that 18mph line.
To visualize, imagine the ramp curve divided into 5 equal divided locations.
For tuners running in 20mph to 50mph the roller is dwelling in the mid area of the ramp where the profiles are all even.

So now AFTER 18mph track speed, would the ramps deliver a different personality between the 3 of them? (yes) or (no) answer responds.

Joe you are just guessing when your drawing your lines right ? I have often wondered myself where exactly is the roller positioned on the ramp and at what rpm. Other than the colored pencil lines what is your testing based on ?

OT

 

[Original Tetonice]

Is there anything that can be done (by one of the moderators maybe) to filter this from the conversation???


.

Maybe you should consider taking your BS into a "private room" so those with TRA headcase issues can stroke each other until your hearts are content.

OT

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

I don't know what you mean by "overall ramps"

The reason 90mph is discussed is to illustrate an issue between 2 reference points.
Ref #1 is Roller position at rest.
Ref #2 is roller position at full shift = approx 90mph.

IF you can know the peak mph at full shift, THEN on the ramp, you can calculate roller positions per mph on the ramp. (applied under full throttle)
As an example - IF a tuner is having a problem at 55mph track speed, THEN knowing the gearing/mph potential of their sled, they can look at the ramp and have a reference point to where the roller is at the problem @ 55mph track speed.

Other than "peak mph, whatever-it-may-be is a 2nd rerference point" - see, again the lens you read through is foggy, you miss out on what is written, sorry this happens to you, im sure it's difficult at times.

The issue is nothing about 9000 feet, nothing about 90mph. I could have said any mph to match any gear ratio -
If I only said "peak mph full overdrive" then there would be no reference point other than a "place" so you have to give a value to have a reference point.

I know the manager of manufacturing for the TRA ramps, in fact I buy ramps/rollers/levers/springs from the manufacturer (BRP does not make these parts) I am told by their technician that these ramps are made from 414.

If you line up those ramps they are the same curve where mentioned. If you don't see them line up then whatever you are using to line them up is misaligned - if you are stacking them on top of each other by sight without an align rod, then you need to buy a ramp block or have an align rod installed through the hole.

quotes ot - Joe i just put the 3 ramps you mentioned side by side and from the mid point to the tip they are slightly differant.
quotes ot - Joe you are just guessing when your drawing your lines right ? I have often wondered myself where exactly is the roller positioned on the ramp and at what rpm.

Since you say you have those 3 ramps, then you can mark them up with a felt pen and go test those 3 ramps yourself. The 415 ramp in the picture come out of an 06 summit 800 and has markings on it from the roller running up the ramp path. I don't guess with the lines, I have run those ramps under full throttle, the rollers made the start and finish lines, I draw them in for ease of illustration.

I try to verify what I say by manufacturer and their techy type people so I have something of value to quote rather than a hollow "i suppose so".
I would like to see the picture of your 3 ramps lined up and if you like you can email me the picture, I will post it for you.

good day

 

[maluchm]

Maybe you should consider taking your BS into a "private room" so those with TRA headcase issues can stroke each other until your hearts are content.

OT

Pot meet kettle

 

[Original Tetonice]

I don't know what you mean by "overall ramps"

The reason 90mph is discussed is to illustrate an issue between 2 reference points.
Ref #1 is Roller position at rest.
Ref #2 is roller position at full shift = approx 90mph.

IF you can know the peak mph at full shift, THEN on the ramp, you can calculate roller positions per mph on the ramp. (applied under full throttle)
As an example - IF a tuner is having a problem at 55mph track speed, THEN knowing the gearing/mph potential of their sled, they can look at the ramp and have a reference point to where the roller is at the problem @ 55mph track speed.

Other than "peak mph, whatever-it-may-be is a 2nd rerference point" - see, again the lens you read through is foggy, you miss out on what is written, sorry this happens to you, im sure it's difficult at times.

The issue is nothing about 9000 feet, nothing about 90mph. I could have said any mph to match any gear ratio -
If I only said "peak mph full overdrive" then there would be no reference point other than a "place" so you have to give a value to have a reference point.

I know the manager of manufacturing for the TRA ramps, in fact I buy ramps/rollers/levers/springs from the manufacturer (BRP does not make these parts) I am told by their technician that these ramps are made from 414.

If you line up those ramps they are the same curve where mentioned. If you don't see them line up then whatever you are using to line them up is misaligned - if you are stacking them on top of each other by sight without an align rod, then you need to buy a ramp block or have an align rod installed through the hole.

I try to verify what I say by manufacturer and their techy type people so I have something of value to quote rather than a hollow "i suppose so".

good day

I get it now Joe.....your verifaction is based on what the techy type people at the manufacture tells you.

And i agree with you BRP does not make the TRA ramps..... FYI, or any other clutch part for that matter.

And yes i use a "alignment rod" when looking at ramps such as the 413,414,415.


OT

 

[Original Tetonice]

JOE, I have to confess that i have to give credit to those "techy types" back at the factory for getting it right

My Bad it's not "FACTORY its "MANUFACTURING". Heaven for bid i confuse the unstable TRA members LOL

OT