Ramps in the TRA, how they work and how they effect performance.

[ReTodd]

Hey Joe,

I've been trying to follow along on this conversation and, other than getting distracted by ADD boy, I think I understand most of it. A question I have is what is the benefit of having such a huge selection of ramps for both the primary and the secondary? It seems to me that changing ramps in the primary would be most beneficial if a similar change was made to secondary. As an example, lets say you want a more aggressive engagement with more low end grunt. Not considering springs and weights, you could use a more aggressive ramp like the 414 or you could change to steeper initial angle helix in the secondary. However, it would be counter productive for someone to have an aggressive ramp in the primary combined with a flat helix in the secondary, wouldn't it?


Any thoughts?

 

[tollen77]

Hey Joe,

I've been trying to follow along on this conversation and, other than getting distracted by ADD boy, I think I understand most of it. A question I have is what is the benefit of having such a huge selection of ramps for both the primary and the secondary? It seems to me that changing ramps in the primary would be most beneficial if a similar change was made to secondary. As an example, lets say you want a more aggressive engagement with more low end grunt. Not considering springs and weights, you could use a more aggressive ramp like the 414 or you could change to steeper initial angle helix in the secondary. However, it would be counter productive for someone to have an aggressive ramp in the primary combined with a flat helix in the secondary, wouldn't it?


Any thoughts?

I guess that's kind of what i'm getting at to ReTodd.... nice handle by the way. The changes I'm more interested in are less to do with engagement and more to do with mid to peak RPM though. If a 413, 414, and 415 are all the same once you reach 18 mph then for the riding I do, they're all the same.

How long 'til your new site is up Joe? Can't wait to poke around there.



.

 

[ReTodd]

Another question I have comes after looking at the diagram of the TRA that Joe posted. With the pivot location of the arms so far out from center, the centri***al force (which wants the weight to travel perpendicular) is partly absorbed by the arm having to travel downward before traveling out. Wouldn't that make the clutch less efficient. Why would they have the pivot so far out. It reminds me of the M7 suspensions where the track was getting banjo'd everytime you hit a bump because the rails traveled horizontally rather than vertically.

I have seen after market arms for these clutches, is that what they are trying to address?

 

[Original Tetonice]

Hey Joe,

I've been trying to follow along on this conversation and, other than getting distracted by ADD boy, I think I understand most of it. A question I have is what is the benefit of having such a huge selection of ramps for both the primary and the secondary? It seems to me that changing ramps in the primary would be most beneficial if a similar change was made to secondary. As an example, lets say you want a more aggressive engagement with more low end grunt. Not considering springs and weights, you could use a more aggressive ramp like the 414 or you could change to steeper initial angle helix in the secondary. However, it would be counter productive for someone to have an aggressive ramp in the primary combined with a flat helix in the secondary, wouldn't it?


Any thoughts?

Simple, tunable.....the TRA does many things in many types of conditions and elevations trail riding, oval racing, tours sled, snowcross, hillclimb, than you have the various CC's 400cc, 500cc, 700cc, 800cc which require a differant size ramp profile, helick angle and spring load.

FYI only the primary use TRA ramp.



OT

 

[Original Tetonice]

In the mountains and deep snow on the 700 and 800 cc motor your best helix's are shallow, S40, S42, S44, along with either a 413,414,415, 417 since they are all simlar.

OT

 

[winter brew]

Hey Joe,

I've been trying to follow along on this conversation and, other than getting distracted by ADD boy, I think I understand most of it. A question I have is what is the benefit of having such a huge selection of ramps for both the primary and the secondary? It seems to me that changing ramps in the primary would be most beneficial if a similar change was made to secondary. As an example, lets say you want a more aggressive engagement with more low end grunt. Not considering springs and weights, you could use a more aggressive ramp like the 414 or you could change to steeper initial angle helix in the secondary. However, it would be counter productive for someone to have an aggressive ramp in the primary combined with a flat helix in the secondary, wouldn't it?


Any thoughts?

"However, it would be counter productive for someone to have an aggressive ramp in the primary combined with a flat helix in the secondary, wouldn't it?"

Not necessarily. Most experienced tuners will basically tune the primary for upshift and the secondary for backshift (oversimplified of course, but you get the idea). I have found on every sled I have had, regardless of brand or type of clutch that I get the best results for the mountains by using an aggressive (heavier weight) primary setup along with a fairly shallow helix to get enough backshift to match the primary. Just seems more consistant and holds steadier RPM on the hills, along with a bit more track speed....probably the result of less wavering in RPM than a light primary/steep secondary.... although for the flats or drag racing that is what I would use.

 

[TLKDPROD]

Just wanted to say thanks to Dymano Joe for such precious & interesting information on this thread. It helped a lot of people understand better how ramp works i'm sure.

 

[ReTodd]

"However, it would be counter productive for someone to have an aggressive ramp in the primary combined with a flat helix in the secondary, wouldn't it?"

Not necessarily. Most experienced tuners will basically tune the primary for upshift and the secondary for backshift (oversimplified of course, but you get the idea). I have found on every sled I have had, regardless of brand or type of clutch that I get the best results for the mountains by using an aggressive (heavier weight) primary setup along with a fairly shallow helix to get enough backshift to match the primary. Just seems more consistant and holds steadier RPM on the hills, along with a bit more track speed....probably the result of less wavering in RPM than a light primary/steep secondary.... although for the flats or drag racing that is what I would use.

So what controls the amount of "load sensing" that the clutches go through. When we here our rpm's bounching up and down, I assume that is because the clutches are not reacting quickly enough to maintain rpm....is it the secondary (backshift) that helps it react?

Rt

 

[winter brew]

So what controls the amount of "load sensing" that the clutches go through. When we here our rpm's bounching up and down, I assume that is because the clutches are not reacting quickly enough to maintain rpm....is it the secondary (backshift) that helps it react?

Rt

Could be alot of things....worn bushings/binding, a bit too much primary weight, too low of gearing, too steep of helix for the amount of primary weight....bla bla bla

 

[banditpowdercoat]

So what controls the amount of "load sensing" that the clutches go through. When we here our rpm's bounching up and down, I assume that is because the clutches are not reacting quickly enough to maintain rpm....is it the secondary (backshift) that helps it react?

Rt

I think alot of the bouncing may be from Friction? It takes a certain amount of RPM change, or load change to make the clutches react. The amount of force needed to make a change in the clutches must first overcome the internal frictions within the clutches themselve. Sticky, worn out bushings going to need more force before they move. I have noticed, things move freely when under little pressure, BUT, put the hundresds of Lbs of force that is seen inside a clutch, things dont allways move as easilly.

Case in point. My last set of ramps. They got toasted in 2 rides. Ground right down in the middle of the ramp. I checked the rolleers, each rolled FREELY. They fit nice on the pins. Had new buttons in chutch. So what was it? Well, Rollers rolled freely on the ramp with no force appplied. Once I pushed the arm/roller into the ramp the roller didn't roll no more. Just slid on the ramp. This just ground the ramps out.

oh, and if you go to your control panel, and put Original Tetonice on INORE, this thread and others are MUCH easier to follow.....

 

[Original Tetonice]

I think alot of the bouncing may be from Friction? It takes a certain amount of RPM change, or load change to make the clutches react. The amount of force needed to make a change in the clutches must first overcome the internal frictions within the clutches themselve. Sticky, worn out bushings going to need more force before they move. I have noticed, things move freely when under little pressure, BUT, put the hundresds of Lbs of force that is seen inside a clutch, things dont allways move as easilly.

Case in point. My last set of ramps. They got toasted in 2 rides...... Ground right down in the middle of the ramp. I checked the rolleers, each rolled FREELY. They fit nice on the pins. Had new buttons in chutch. So what was it? Well, Rollers rolled freely on the ramp with no force appplied. Once I pushed the arm/roller into the ramp the roller didn't roll no more. Just slid on the ramp. This just ground the ramps out.

oh, and if you go to your control panel, and put Original Tetonice on INORE, this thread and others are MUCH easier to follow.....

My last set of ramps. They got toasted in 2 rides. Ground right down in the middle of the ramp..... Sorry dude i call BS. Your roller only has a wall thickness of 1/8th inch and would grind through the roller before the roller would be able to gring through 9/16 thick ramp. Let alone all 3 ramps in 2 rides as your BS post claims.

And besides if you have been around the TRA along time as you say, while riding you would know if your rollers are grinding through the middle of the ramps becaue it shows up and would not take 2 rides. I give it 2 minutes before it show up in the performance

SW has a history of guys like you posting BS and you guys always seem to show up just before riding season. Beware What You Read !!!!!

OT

 

[Original Tetonice]

So what controls the amount of "load sensing" that the clutches go through. When we here our rpm's bounching up and down, I assume that is because the clutches are not reacting quickly enough to maintain rpm....is it the secondary (backshift) that helps it react?

Rt

1st of all your secondary is load sensing....Your helix in the secondary is always adjust to the always changing snow load at the track. When in deep snow the track is under huge load vs hard pack trails. The load of the deep snow make the helix work much harder therefore causing the "Bouncing Betty" in the primary to work hard as well to maintain rpm. Once heat consumes the TRA managing the TRA's rpm becomes more of an "art" vs a "science"

OT

 

[banditpowdercoat]

My last set of ramps. They got toasted in 2 rides. Ground right down in the middle of the ramp..... Sorry dude i call BS. Your roller only has a wall thickness of 1/8th inch and would grind through the roller before the roller would be able to gring through 9/16 thick ramp. Let alone all 3 ramps in 2 rides as your BS post claims.

And besides if you have been around the TRA along time as you say, while riding you would know if your rollers are grinding through the middle of the ramps becaue it shows up and would not take 2 rides. I give it 2 minutes before it show up in the performance

SW has a history of guys like you posting BS and you guys always seem to show up just before riding season. Beware What You Read !!!!!

OT

You know what, **** OFF

I DID notice you Idiot. Somethiong wasnt right after the end if the 1st ride, about 30m miles. Took it out again to test. I never took clutch apart as it was 2 back to back days. 2nd day I didnt go fat. so I'll ask you politely again to **** OFF

 

[Original Tetonice]

Without pictures of the 3 ground down ramps your story is BS... show the the pictures. If you can not provide pictures your story is BS.

BS'er, while your at it take the pictures of the rollers you claim didn't roll that caused the damage to the ramps as well.

OT

 

[banditpowdercoat]

What the hell would pictures prove?? You never seen a screwed up ramp?? And why would I even have the ramps now? I threw them in the garbage, at my Doo dealer. Because, after I found that they were toast, I took them out, and went to the shop to get some new ones, wanted to show my dealer. Why would I keep garbage parts?? it happened LAST YEAR. Rollers and ramps went in the garbage. New rollers, new ramps $250 later I'm back home assembling my clutch.

We all know your a 12 year old kid who thinks hes the king chit but you know, your just a punk azz goofball.

just so YOU know what they look like, these are TRA ramps

 

[Original Tetonice]

What the hell would pictures prove?? You never seen a screwed up ramp?? And why would I even have the ramps now? I threw them in the garbage, at my Doo dealer. Because, after I found that they were toast, I took them out, and went to the shop to get some new ones, wanted to show my dealer. Why would I keep garbage parts?? it happened LAST YEAR. Rollers and ramps went in the garbage. New rollers, new ramps $250 later I'm back home assembling my clutch.

We all know your a 12 year old kid who thinks hes the king chit but you know, your just a punk azz goofball.

just so YOU know what they look like, these are TRA ramps

Your full of BS and the only folks your fooling are the novice like yourself.....Your only defense for youe BS is telling someone to ****OFF.

BEWARE of banditpowdercoat he is full of BS.



OT

 

[banditpowdercoat]

Yup, I am full of BS. Sure

OT, how about YOU show us a picture with you and a taken apart TRA clutch, and something to prove that it's you and today. Like todays paper, or, a screenshot of this thread???

Like this

 

[Original Tetonice]

Blah, Blah, Blah you full of BS.

OT

 

[banditpowdercoat]

Blah, Blah, Blah you full of BS.

OT

No picture No Proof Huh. So, wheres YOUR's? you show me proof that you took a TRA apart. I just showe'd you some of my spare parts.

Who's the BS'r?

 

[Original Tetonice]

Yup, I am full of BS. Sure

OT, how about YOU show us a picture with you and a taken apart TRA clutch, and something to prove that it's you and today. Like todays paper, or, a screenshot of this thread???

Like this

Nice pile of junk TRA part. Know wonder you have trouble making TRA run....One would suspect since you collect junk TRA parts those 3 junk ramps your claiming would fit right in with the rest of your junk.

Over the years many of us forum folk have gotten used to BS'ers like yourself

ot