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Nytro powderlites DIES WHEN HOT

These sleds run hot...regardless if it is the complete fix - they need to be vented.

Is anyone running a rad delete and rear u-cooler having these issues?


What I cant understand is the "advantage" I heard of the rear over the front was heat. Why are impulse and alpine not having this prob? I agree we should have more under hood heat, but no heat issue? Most of the guys I know with frount kits do have a rear cooler and no rad, mabey that would solve the prob??
I do ride with a few guys with mcx and I havent seen them have this prob yet, mabey its yet to come from the sounds of this.
 
Same here...MCX kit and I have been following this thread. Last year I ran the stock cooling system....lots of spring rides even when my heat light would come on on the trail.....I'd stop and cool for a few minutes but I never had runability problems or the sled wouldnt start....would start just fine. It was plenty hot out and driving slow.....this year I switched to a CR tunnel and deleted the rad....its never happened yet and I hope it never does...kinda weird how some guys have issues and some dont.
 
I just finished installing stainless braided fuel lines, coolant lines to the turbo and fixed up the stainless braided oil return line with AN fittings. I think that the ss braided fuel lines will help with the issue, as the ones in the kit get pretty soft and collapse when they get hot. I guess we'll see:D

I'm also going to make up a vent that will go between the gauge cluster and steering column...
 
Guys after a little gentle push Dave has made up a few small coolers that sit in the reartunnel, the only purpose is to bring the returning coolant down in temp before it goes back to the engine, lowering that fluid has proven verybeneficial on my apex and I know on the nytro its worth more due to the higher temps the 3 cyl engine does not like heat or does the fuel system, simple install just using the line coming out of the turbo in the rear, call powder Lites he has a cure for some of these small issues, also I will state again the returning fuel needs to be coming out the end of the injector rail Dave are you working on that issue?
 
I posted a few pages back that my MPI SC is having similar starting issues. I removed the headlight to see if venting would help. It was getting plenty of air and even some snow. It didn't seem to help much if at all.

Maybe the fuel return at the end of the fuel rail and or a tunnelcooler/rad delete kit, but again who makes one?
 
Powder Lites Nytro boiling Gas

Gas boils at low temps at high altitude and Nytro have no escape for hot air behind Rad. Auto parts stores have a thermal sleeve to slide over fuel hose from pump back to top of tank to keep heat away.
Venting to let hot air out is the problem !
We have put holes in side panels to let hot air out and seems to help.
The rubber around Handlebars needs to be cut back also.
The pump cannot push air passed fuel regulator.

www.powderlites.com
 
lettin hot air out

If you look at the Nytro, there is a rubber piece around the plastic where the steering post goes through it. This is right above the "HEAT TRIANGLE" as I like to call it. Removing it will let a little more of this hot air escape. Not a total fix, but helps.
 
I posted a few pages back that my MPI SC is having similar starting issues. I removed the headlight to see if venting would help. It was getting plenty of air and even some snow. It didn't seem to help much if at all.

Maybe the fuel return at the end of the fuel rail and or a tunnelcooler/rad delete kit, but again who makes one?
Alpine Motor Sport in Salmon Arm have the parts you need for this. We run this setup on all our Alpine turbo kits, and then plumb the regulator in between the rail and the tank on the return side of course.
 
I FOUND THIS IT MAKES SENSE OF THE FUEL BOIL ISSUE AND ALTITUDE.

The higher the altitude, the worse the problems are. One is vapor lock where gasoline vaporizes from heat in the fuel line, thereby starving the engine for fuel. The other is the heat soak/ hot start/run problem.

When a hot engine is turned off, heat builds up in the engine compartment. This causes fuel to rise in the carburetor bowl and drip down from the venturi boosters into the engine. The engine is now flooded and is hard to start.

The next is what we call “geysering” and happens on a running engine. The elevated temperature of the pressurized fuel in the line entering the carb bowl past the needle and seat causes the fuel to boil violently. The drop in pressure from the line to atmospheric in the bowl causes this. The fuel “geysers” up out of the bowl vent tube.


There are two times of the year when these problems are greatest for our carbureted engines. One is in the late fall and the other is in the early spring. These are periods where winter fuels are in use but summer temperatures can be present. This is because winter fuels boil at lower temperatures than summer fuels. The problem is worsened as the vehicle goes up in altitude, because the boiling temperature of gasoline, just like water, goes down as the altitude is increased.

Unlike injected engines, carbureted engines have the fuel at ambient pressure in the carb bowl before entering the engine. Remember, the higher the fuel pressure, the higher the boiling temperature. The fuel is under pressure up to the carb. But, once the fuel passes the needle & seat into the bowl, it is at ambient pressure. Here is where we experience violent vaporization or boiling. We even see it geyser up out of the bowl vent tube. But if we cool the bowl with a damp cool rag the problem stops immediately. The fuel bowl doesn’t even feel hot when this problem occurs. This tells us that the boiling temperature at this altitude for the fuel is just a little above ambient. So if we subject it to summer temperatures, the problem occurs. It all has to do with fuel volatility.

Volatility is a measure of the gasoline’s tendency to vaporize under a given set of conditions. Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) is a commonly used indicator of gasoline volatility. Boiling is a violent version of vaporizing. The higher the RVP, the greater the tendency to vaporize or vapor lock.


We don’t have this problem with our race gas on the hottest days in the middle of the summer. So let’s look at RVP. Our 110-octane race gas that we blend down has a RVP of 6.6pounds per square inch (psi). Our summer unleaded 91-octane gas that blend with race gas to lower the octane of the race gas with has an RVP of about 9psi. That is if all the remaining winter gas has been used up from the gas station’s tank.

This is because the RVP changes during the year. The summer gas delivered from the refinery has the 9psi RVP from mid April to mid September. After September, it starts to rise monthly till it gets to a max in December & January of about 15psi. Then it starts coming down again till April. The higher the RVP, the lower the boiling temperature. The addition of ethanol can also lower the boiling temperature.

So why does the gas from some stations boil worse than from others? If the April gas is in the tank truck but there is still some March gas in the station tank, the gas you get will have a RVP higher than the 9psi for April through summer.

If you don’t run a fuel with a low RVP, the best thing to do if the vehicle has been running hard and is shut down for a while is to open the hood to let the hot air out of the engine compartment. If the vehicle is prone to geyser while running, like at high altitude climbing up to the Eisenhower Tunnel, a simple method, that may sound rinky-dink, but really works, is to carry a cold wet towel and put it around the carb bowls when the problem occurs. This works every time on our dyno at 7500-foot elevation. Following is a chart of RVP classes and which is in use at different times of the year. These apply for Colorado.


Class RVP Max 10% Boiling Temp F 50% Boiling Temp F
Class A 9 158 170 to 250
Class B 10 149 170 to 250
Class C 11.5 140 170 to 250
Class D 13.5 131 150 to 250
Class E 15 122 150 to 245


Ethanol raises the RVP about 1 psi.

Blend by month: Jan E Feb E-D Mar D-C April C-A May thru Sept15 A Oct B-C Nov C-D Dec D-E

A worse case would be a very warm day in January when the fuel starts to boil at 122deg or lower with ethanol.

Insulating lines and carburetor will help buy time till the problem occurs and may solve the problem in marginal cases. Replacing a mechanical fuel pump on the engine with an electrical pump close to the fuel tank can reduce the fuel line vapor lock problem. The mechanical pump acts as a heat source. Hot fuel with vapor can be pushed much easier than pulled as an up front pump does.

In a nutshell, cool the fuel or raise it’s boiling temperature.
 
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huh.

Yeah, that makes all kinds of sense. I have noticed the couple times that my sled has ran really good, are the times when it had the most 110 in it.

So, basically my supposed "pump gas turbo" with the head shim, which now, at altitude is basically useless, is now a "race fuel turbo"!!!!

The altitude and race fuel attributes of this equation are basically the solution as to why some guys are having lots of trouble and some guys are having no trouble at all,,, or so it would logically seem....

I guess my race fuel bill just went up, oh well, now the boost just gets turned up too......

That little bit of info just saved my day tomorrow,,,, thanks ultralord, where did you find that anyway??

Even though this will seemingly solve the problem, it really doesn't, there has to be a solution so we don't have to run so much race fuel.........
Either that, or us guys at altitude are just chit out of luck and are gonna have to run the good juice no matter what. The reason I did the head shim and this particular kit was to NOT have to run so much race fuel......
 
Wonder how many kits are out there and experiencing this problem?? I know he's sold 60 kits or more theres quite a few guys out east running them as well.. I only know of 4 kits in Edmonton here and none of us have had these issues??
 
Suction Line

The article above mentions it's easier to push fuel then it is to suck. That being said I wonder if one re-routed the fuel pump suction line underneigth the gas tank, instead of up and over the top. This would give the pump a positive pressure on the suction side and be less prone to cavitaion resulting in less heat. One should upgrade the line as it's likely extremely hot under the tank with the exhaust so close.

Or

I wonder if there is a submersible fuel pump (that meets the needs of the turbo) that could be placed inside the tank, just like the stock one was.
 
I'm going to pull the fuel rail tomorrow and see if I can drill and tap a fitting into the dead end of it and put the pressure regulator between the rail and tank as mentioned above. If possible...this should be the fix-all for the problem!
 
I was incorrect in my earlier post. The MPI fuel regulator kit DOES flow the fuel through the rail before returning it to the tank.

Could this issue have anything to do with to little venting from the tank. The tank vent is small especially on a trailtank and I noticed mine had fuel in it yesterday which would retrict or eliminate any air from venting through it.
 
I found it on some google research I think the guys that dont have the problem are running race fuel or low elevation. I think if you had a evap purge system like cars do you would not have this problem. But it should not be that hard to fan cool the rail for guys who have this issue

I am sure that with his sled budget Irorman is running race fuel:)
 
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The article above mentions it's easier to push fuel then it is to suck. That being said I wonder if one re-routed the fuel pump suction line underneigth the gas tank, instead of up and over the top. This would give the pump a positive pressure on the suction side and be less prone to cavitaion resulting in less heat. One should upgrade the line as it's likely extremely hot under the tank with the exhaust so close.

Or

I wonder if there is a submersible fuel pump (that meets the needs of the turbo) that could be placed inside the tank, just like the stock one was.

another issue maybe the fuel pump mounting it should be lower than the tank just not sure where to put it
 
Done and had quite a few MC's and can't say I've ran into this problem, both with and without radiators. Some running pump gas and others running Av gas. We had one recently with similar symptoms. Fuel pump would get hot, would run great when cold and act up as it got warm, even changed a pump which solved it for a while. It would work great, then as the pump got warm it would act up intermittently. Think we have it sorted now.....try changing the fuel filter. As stupid as it sounds, it could be that simple and the filter should be changed periodically anyway. A Fram G3 fits nicely. This particular sled had run flawless for at least 1500k
 
Done and had quite a few MC's and can't say I've ran into this problem, both with and without radiators. Some running pump gas and others running Av gas. We had one recently with similar symptoms. Fuel pump would get hot, would run great when cold and act up as it got warm, even changed a pump which solved it for a while. It would work great, then as the pump got warm it would act up intermittently. Think we have it sorted now.....try changing the fuel filter. As stupid as it sounds, it could be that simple and the filter should be changed periodically anyway. A Fram G3 fits nicely. This particular sled had run flawless for at least 1500k

My MCX ran perfect last season and started acting up this year. The venting seems to help. I am going to change the fuel filter also.
 
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