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Is the snowmobile industry going into terminal decline?

Wheel House Motorsports

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Buyers and users seem to carry the brunt of the battle to keep areas open, fight bad press continue to encourage a new generation to enjoy what we love so much.

That right there is dead on one of the things I think is horrible for the sport.

this would be like auto makers not giving a crap if there were no roads to drive on... BIG PROBLEM. people wont buy them if they cant use them.

IMO the general sledding as a sport for a lot has sort of gone sour. the uninformer(basically 99.9%) of the population dont even know about snowmobiling, or think its a bunch of retards trying to start avalanches. sled prices are getting rediculous on a product that is half the time poorly produced and doesnt last long at all. I am 20 and the only reason I can afford to dump the money I can into sledding is because I am very fortunate to have my college carrear provided to me. I still find myself working tons just to be able to ride... and I think my 2 sleds cost what maybe 1 new one would.. bone stock. such is an addiction right? If I wasnt mechanically inclined and able to build my own mod type sleds for a fraction of the cost that some pay, I dont think I would still be involved in the sport, or not nearly at the level I am now.
 
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Raff_9001M

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I am curious for Yamaha, Polaris and Ski-Doo (Bombardier) - how much do these companies make from their snowmobile sales in relation to their overall profit? I would guess for these 3 manufacturers that sleds are probably their smallest profit margin therefore their support for the sport is commensurate with their profits on sled sales.
 
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catmanm8

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I want a lighter, faster, sled with a cloud like suspension that will stand up to cornice drops and tree hits....if I ask for that will it drive the price up??

A wise man once told me "be careful what you wish for, you might get it"

As for the film guys...no one sponsors my job or hobby...except the bank lol:face-icon-small-hap

Sled companies are just trying to give us what we desire...I love my hobby....it is also my choice....
 

winter brew

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Jorli, I can appreciate your perspective on the sport and don't question your observations but allow me to play the devils advocate here and present another perspective :face-icon-small-hap. I've been sledding since the early 1970's. In this area (Wa), there are now more snoparks with bigger parking areas than there has ever been and they are packed almost every weekend. I see more sleds on the hill (ALOT more) than any time in the past. In 1985 a new top of the line sled was about $4K, today about 12K (US$)......while in the same time period cars and trucks (especially trucks) have gone up close to 4X's in price and home prices have more than tripled.
I see alot of young people on the hill. They don't always have the latest/greatest sleds....they might have $2K into 2 sleds but they are having as much fun as the guy on the brand new iron.
I don't see sled video's as promoting or marketing the sport. Buyers of sled videos are sledders and already own sleds. I have not seen anything in these videos that advertises anything specific to the big 4 mfr.....only aftermarket shops and products, and these were typically sponsors of the video's. I view sled vidoes strictly as entertainment.....and they do a great job of this... Thank you!! I hesitate to mention this, but there have been discussions on here in the past where some people blame sled videos for some of the activities some riders partake in without the proper skill and knowledge and the results (deaths) have been bad for the sport (NOT my opinion!!, but it has been brought up many times.)
I have read articles on the mfr's donating $$ and effort to keep riding areas open throught BRC and various state snowmobile associations. I'm sure with the bad economy this has been cut back in recent years like everything else but I'm sure they do what they feel is effective to keep the sport alive. JMHO- :beer;
 
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Jorli

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Jorli, I can appreciate your perspective on the sport and don't question your observations but allow me to play the devils advocate here and present another perspective :face-icon-small-hap. I've been sledding since the early 1970's. In this area (Wa), there are now more snoparks with bigger parking areas than there has ever been and they are packed almost every weekend. I see more sleds on the hill (ALOT more) than any time in the past. In 1985 a new top of the line sled was about $4K, today about 12K (US$)......while in the same time period cars and trucks (especially trucks) have gone up close to 4X's in price and home prices have more than tripled.
I see alot of young people on the hill. They don't always have the latest/greatest sleds....they might have $2K into 2 sleds but they are having as much fun as the guy on the brand new iron.
I don't see sled video's as promoting or marketing the sport. Buyers of sled videos are sledders and already own sleds. I have not seen anything in these videos that advertises anything specific to the big 4 mfr.....only aftermarket shops and products, and these were typically sponsors of the video's. I view sled vidoes strictly as entertainment.....and they do a great job of this... Thank you!! I hesitate to mention this, but there have been discussions on here in the past where some people blame sled videos for some of the activities some riders partake in without the proper skill and knowledge and the results (deaths) have been bad for the sport (NOT my opinion!!, but it has been brought up many times.)
I have read articles on the mfr's donating $$ and effort to keep riding areas open throught BRC and various state snowmobile associations. I'm sure with the bad economy this has been cut back in recent years like everything else but I'm sure they do what they feel is effective to keep the sport alive. JMHO- :beer;

If you are trying to say that companies like Warren Miller (1.2 millions theatrical visits/year) haven't provided a valuable service of promoting and helping the ski industry to grow and flourish...... an industry that has had trillions of dollars of infrastructure developed to support it......I don't know....get your head checked! Films of this nature have likely been the number one driving force, both directly and indirectly in bringing these great experiences to your living rooms, inspiring sales staff that interact directly with customers and drawing new markets.

Slednecks is directly responsible for my participation in the sport, as for many of friends as well. Two of my neighbors bought their first snowmobiles after viewing Fourcast, unfortunately your opinion is not representative of this point of entry for many participants.

The films are designed to market the tomorrow of snowmobiling to both new and existing users, new users benefit from understanding the passion and experience of the sport, existing users are inspired by seeing new riding techniques, environments and products out-performing that of the previous year's and thus inspiring sales. Most movie based advertising is done via product placement, even in Hollywood, placing a TV type snowmobile commercial in a sled film is distasteful, there are much more subtle ways to get the message across.

No, most businesses don't receive sponsorship dollars, however every business is different, but these types of films can't survive without it, especially now with Bit-torrent!

Nothing that you've mentioned validates your points, I addressed the issue of inflation in regards to pricing and your perspective on films is not shared by the vast majority of parts & sales manager that see a direct connection to their sales. Supporting snowmobile clubs should be a given, even MacDonalds helps local soccers teams.

I actually find that people that share your attitude to be proponents of the very problem I've addressed.
 
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snowmobiler

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in 1970 at $1.50 an hour.it would take 700 hours to buy a 340 puma.
in 2010 at $10.00 an hour.700 hours will buy a $7000 2010 cat f570.
sure the price of food and rent is higher but sleds are a luxury item.
not sure where $20,000 comes from.cuz entry level riders should not be
riding top of line sleds.:)
 
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Hardass

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Changing weather patterns, high prices, land closures and bad economy all add up. as far as the movie thing it seems to have lost it;s luster. before i seen lot;s of people buying a lot of movies and i just do not see that any more.
 
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Jorli

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I realize that many people posting here are likely over the age of 40 and already intrenched with the addiction of this sport. "Blinders on, Full speed ahead!" What I posted isn't addressing your personal interests, but rather a trend that is increasingly apparently with this industry.

When you look at competing winter sports such as snowboarding and skiing, although cheaper, its important to examine why they are so much more successful and popular than snowmobiling and why they have captured the attention of the younger generation. We also need to look into different ways that will make snowmobiling more of a competitive alternative amongst consumers.

If the snowmobile films received the same measure of support as they do in skiing and snowboarding from the manufactures, they could greatly assist in both educating and drawing new participants. When kids and youth are passionate about activities, generally their parent share that passion and support it. This very important as we need as many supporting voices as possible. The youth need to see that if they apply themselves to something, there is a potential benefit to their efforts, usually in the form of sponsorship.-The proverbial pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Most of the pro riders that I know are purchasing their sleds at close to full retail.

In skiing, production companies such as Matchstick and Warren Miller have received in excess of 1 million dollars annually in sponsorship funding to produce their films which have provided great value to the ski industry.

On the other hand, snowboarding's "That's it, that all" was rumored to cost 1-1.5 mil to produce and is critically acclaimed as the best sport film of all time, apparently out selling Batman on itunes in its first week. -That's F-ing Huge!

Both the ski and snowboard industries have realized that marketing is driven from the top.

There is no denying that this form audio-visual marketing can provide great value to their industries.

If the sled films have lost their luster, its a result of the producers not having the resources to produce better products and invest in better marketing and exhibitions platforms. Not to mention that there is zero incentive for the riders invest their time and effort in this sport.

I sincerely hope things change with this industry, or I can't imagine it will stick around for your children to enjoy. I hope people understand that I am writing this as a wake up call and not some bitter sense of entitlement.

There are number of people like Daniel Cedolia that have given the better part of their productive lives into supporting this industry(15 years+in his case with his Braaap film series and other productions), I know for a fact that he has never gotten a even a so much as a thank you from any of the four snowmobile manufactures.

They really use people in the worst of ways, I don't think I'd shed a tear if they all went bankrupt. The way they are conducting themselves, its a probable outcome. I love this sport, its the best sport on the face of the earth, but the last thing I want to do is give these manufactures more money.

Thats it, thats all!-J
 
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winter brew

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Jorli, like I said to preface my post.....it is only my opinion and perspective. Yes, it is different than yours and that is why I presented it.....if everyone had your same opinion this thread would not exist. I and many others see the sport...past and future, in a different light than yourself.....not the first time it has been suggested I get my head examined either :face-icon-small-ton
I would actually prefer to see sled sales stagnate....if the sled industry booms and sales go through the roof we would just see more/stronger opposition and the possibility of further regulation and area closures (IMHO)...but that's another subject.
Also, I know nothing about the ski industry...I do know it was huge before Warren Miller made his first film, so is it film promoting the ski industry or the ski industry that makes these films popular???....but if they do have trillions of dollars as you mentioned.....there's your answer! They have the $$ to back film makers and a target audience that is likely thousands of times larger than the sledding industry. I can tell you the sled mfr's do not have the cash for this. One of them is knocking on bankruptcy's door right now, the others are scraping by but I'm guessing they are not in a position to hand out $$ to relatively unknown companies without knowing what the benefits will be. Hopefully you can prove this wrong!!
Don't get me wrong, I support what you do and respect your perspective and taking the time to share your thoughts and concerns!!
Another reason you will not likely see a major mfr throw much financial support to the extreme video industry is liability. Look at all the warning and caution stickers on a new sled, the warnings on virtually every page of a brochure, owners manual, magazine ads etc..... Every move advertising makes is scrutinized by a lawyer before it can happen.....I'm guessing the return is not worth the risk to them.
Backing riders in organized racing is as close as it will likely get.
I'm off to get my head examined....having been around the industry (mfr's dealers and aftermarket) for 30+ years has warped my perspective. :crazy:
 
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Jorli

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Winter Brew,

I've certainly heard everything you've mentioned before. Here are some things to consider.

If liability was such an issue, please tell me how endorsing a production featuring professional riders is a greater liability than Ski-Doo's "send us your huck yourself video" for their Summit Drop Contest? If want to bring up encouraging risky behavior and liability.............

Maybe a reason they don't have money is for the very reasons I mentioned. I spent five years working to develop and finance an IMAX movie. I traveled throughout North America and Europe pitching the project to various advertising agencies, here is an example, in 2004, DDB billed out for 24.1 billion dollars. Ad Agencies utilize a large percentage of their client's money maintaining their profitability and infrastructure, not serving their clients. (DDB, 54 Maddison Ave. New York City -if my memory serves me correctly)

Please read the Dec/Jan issue of Photolife magazine, its explains how Olivier Staub (Photographer) produced still images for Ski Doo's Ad campaign, the shoot took place in studio and required 15 days and 17 people to produce the images. The snowmobile was suspended by cables and canons shot artificial snow to simulate real action. I don't even want to guess how much that cost to produce, but I can think of a lot better uses for that money.

On the other hand Red Bull has been the undeniable leader in corporate marketing and branding; and most admirably, has utilized local resources in various territories around the world to accomplish this. Red Bull has put money into sectors of the economy that wouldn't have received it through innovative marketing programs as most other companies were paying their ad agencies to buy billboard space at hockey games. It would be great to see the sled companies use Red Bull as an example to follow.

For the most part, a 43 year old (average age- ISMA) does not cycle through product as quickly as 20 year olds. A 20 year old has the potential to be a long term participant (client) of the sport and is more likely purchase performance oriented vehicles. A 20 year has greater potential value to a manufacture than a 43 year old, yet is virtually ignored in the marketing and sales of snowmobiles.

Warren Miller has been producing ski movies since the 60's, how popular was skiing in the 60s compared to today? How many people skied relative to the population from the 60s to today? If snowmobile is relative to skiing's popularity in the 60s, what can be done to help grow the sport more quickly?

My point is that these symbiotic relationships are failing, I know that other producers that are talking about exiting the market. I disagree with you regarding decreasing the popularity of the sport would result in less pressure to close riding areas as the sport have to regress to being virtually existent for this to be effective. Almost everything gains acceptance with popularity and understanding as large lobby groups are difficult to quell.

This industry seems to be a big pissing match and everyone is pulling for themselves. I know your opinion is shared by many of the manufacturers, however presenting the same old arguments as to why doing nothing is better than investing in the future of the sport is why this sport is in terminal decline.
 

Woody67

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Most of the pro riders that I know are purchasing their sleds at close to full retail.

1. Fourcast is a great movie

2. Have the Pro riders you know call me. I have not been able to sell a sled to anyone for retail in years...I will give them a deal too.
 

mmsports

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1. Fourcast is a great movie

2. Have the Pro riders you know call me. I have not been able to sell a sled to anyone for retail in years...I will give them a deal too.

With that kid of statement I would think you was a Cat dealer Stack Them Deep and sell Them Cheap and if that does not work you just have to buy more and more. Good luck hope the economy turns sometime soon Keep in touch.
 

Sunridge Sledhead

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I've read this thread with interest and agree with many of the things posted. Let me put another spin on this, pointing some fingers at ourselves. I am in the average age of sledders, the 40s. The average age is likely so high due to the cost of the sport. I have likely put as money into buying sleds as any recreational sledder I know. I probably need to enter an in-patient program for sledding addiction! :face-icon-small-win My daughter is now 16, my son 13, both like to ride. Weekly, I have friends asking me to take them riding. Unfortunately, how often do I do it? Because the season in short, I like to ride hard with the buds and hate to blow a weekend lifting and digging someone out who is new to the sport. WE may be as guilty as anyone for not bringing new people into the sport! Just sayin.....
 
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snowmobiler

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The statistics say that kids aren't spending as much time outside as their parents did when they grew up. I'm doing these numbers off the top of my head so they could be off some. Not too long ago 75% of people walked or biked to school now something like 20% do. Also in the 60-70's 5% of kids were obese, that has changed also. Now somewhere around 20% are obese. Kids 8 and older spend somewhere around 7 hrs a day or more on the computer, watching TV or playing videos. When I was that age I was outside playing or working.


bingo.they might see a increase in snowmobile sales if they offered a free years supply of cheezburgers,hersey bars or video games.
 

NorthMNSledder

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I still think that cost is the biggest item to overcome in this sport. I have lots of buddies who would love to sled but when you weight the cost it's a TON cheaper to go skiing or snowboarding. And not to mention that all the ski hills around us have tons of specials on their season passes and most are less than a 45 minute drive. So other than a little gas in the car you are paid for the season. Once they buy their gear and board, a couple of hundred dollar season pass and they are set for the year. Compare that to the $200+ a weekend I spent to gas up the sleds and truck to head up to the cabin to ride. Oh and the ski hills here start making their own snow a month to two before we can ride and almost a month after we are done. We usually get 3 months of riding here and this year that was even shorter. When you start to ad up all the costs of this sport it's a wonder it's as big as it is. Sure it used to have more people riding.......and our winters here used to be 6 months long also. Also I think you can give ATV's some credit for taking away snowmobile's. I'm sure we all know people who have sold the sleds for ATV's because they can get more use out of them.


I think that trying to compare the snowmobile industry to the ski/snowboard industry is like comparing apples to oranges.
 

deschutes

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The 2011 Polaris brochure is full of riders wearing Slednecks gear, etc. I was actually little surprised, even knowing their riders all are Slednecks riders as well. There is even some reference to Slednecks in some of the fine print.


I did bring up different aspects, although they relate to one problem: If this industry wants a future customer base, it needs to change the way it does things. The two aspects that stand out the most in keeping new blood from entering this sport are pricing and marketing. I know this because most young adults that are perfect candidates to be sledders- snowboarders, skiers, mountain bikers, motocrossers have no clue about snowmobiling. I tried to get these groups to come out for Premieres of Fourcast, but I had a lot them give me the "No thanks, I think snowmobiling is gay!" type response. No wonder we get demonized by the media when avalanche occur, the vast majority of people don't have a clue what this great sport is all about. That is a failure in marketing, closely followed by sticker shock at the point of sale. The two main reasons this sport is in decline.

The Polaris supports some of Slednecks riders, not Slednecks.

If dealers are having to do the marketing for the manufactures by supporting Jim, that is pretty sad and shows just how out of touch the manufactures truly are, or its as I previously mentioned; very unethical behavior.
 

ruffryder

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I still think that cost is the biggest item to overcome in this sport. I have lots of buddies who would love to sled but when you weight the cost it's a TON cheaper to go skiing or snowboarding.
Yah, that is a big issue. 5k for a sled, 1k for a trailer, now you have to make sure you have a vehicle that can tow it, pay for maintenance because sleds are all POS's...
I used to say that a snowmobile is a poor mans heli, well, ski's are a poor mans snowmobile...
 
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You nailed man! Sad but True.

I have some thoughts about some disturbing trends that have been developing over the past few years in this sport. Seeing as my e-mails to the manufactures likely go straight to their trash bins, I wanted to put this out there in hopes it might gain some attention.

Last season, I produced a snowmobile film titled 'Fourcast'. As an independent film producer, I was on the front lines, day-to-day with some of the best snowmobilers on the planet. Being in this position, one thing is becoming clearly apparent, there is very little new talent coming into this sport. This should be incredibly alarming to the snowmobile manufacturers and supporting parts and accessory companies as there is no future market for their products.

I believe there are two prevailing reasons as to why this trend is rapidly expanding throughout this industry.

1- The barrier to entry is too high for most of what's left of the middle class. In Canada, many of the manufacturer's sought after sleds- out of the box, bone-stock snowmobiles are pricing in at $16,000 to $18,000 when you include taxes. And at those prices, you'll likely be including finance charges which put them $20,000+. That's close to a 100 % increase in the last 10 years. One could argue, that the price of a snowmobile hasn't increased relative to inflation(dollar devaluation), however neither have people's salaries, thus the cost of snowmobiles are out of reach for most folks, especially young people.

2- For those that have money, the snowmobile industry is not competitive with its marketing in contrast to other sports. The manufactures are great at brand-based marketing, (which targets existing users mostly) however they have done little to nothing to support the sport. How do they expect to maintain profitability if they choose to not compete for consumer spending? Especially when one looks at other industries(sports) that have been so much more successful in drawing new participants.

I put all my own money and available credit into producing 'Fourcast'. A project that has amounted to a five year mistake on my current payment plan. I've found it to be truly unbelievable in how the manufacturers have responded to the film. Its somewhat of "You want to help us sell snowmobiles and grow the sport, ........Well F-you!" type attitude.

The manufactures seem to be very content in ignoring those who support them, or perhaps they just enjoy the free ride they've been getting. Sadly, they really owe independent media companies (such as Slednecks) a tremendous amount of gratitude for carrying the marketing of sport for the past 12 years. Even as a competitor to my product, I can say with absolute certainty that Slednecks has done more to market this sport than every other company combined, now that is really sad!

When all the independent film producers get fed up with marketing an industry that refuses to support itself, then the manufacturers can really watch their sales evaporate, along riding areas and supporting infrastructure. There is a symbiotic relationship, but its failing quickly.

I have several recommendations that I sincerely hope get some attention, much of which is pointing out the obvious. The industry has been going in the wrong direction for some time now and really needs an abrupt turn!

1- The price of snowmobiles needs to get under control, if that means curtailing development, so be it. If that means stop writing blank cheques to over-priced advertising agencies that take 15 people and 17 days to produce an in studio photo shoot, then double so be it!

2- Support the sport! The industry has got to change its ideology and look at new and innovative ways to keep this great sport alive and thriving. How can they expect independent media to market their business activities with out their support? One needs to look no further than Red Bull for examples of exercising proactive, inclusive, in-house marketing programs. While Coca Cola and Pepsi were buying billboards space at hockey games and getting next to zero ROI, Red Bull invested in local talent around the world and sought new ways to get their name out. No one can deny how successful they have been. Why is this industry so slow to clue in?

3- Quit screwing Canadian dealers and consumers, It makes no sense that one can find a Ski-Doo, made in Canada, selling for $3000.00 to $4000.00 cheaper in the US. That is completely absurd. If the dollar is close to parity, then pricing should be relative.

A call to all the independent film/video/photographer/hospitality producers and providers; stop giving these guys a free ride! We all know that there is no red carpet in doing back-breaking work that breaks your bank, where is the pleasure in that? No, its not about the money, but yes it takes money to survive and produce good products and services. If these companies think they are better off with out us, then so be it! Why on earth would anyone want to support an industry that does nothing to reciprocate?

Thats it for the rant, hope this rings true to some of you! I didn't write this to be negative, but rather there is nothing more that I'd like than to see this sport succeed as it is the best sport in the world deserves to be recognized for it merits so that it can gain public acceptance rather than be demonized and outcasted by the ignorant. We need to turn this game around!

I have a company that produces and distributes snowmobile videos including Sled Necks as well as 20 more action snow packed flicks. We have been around since the nineties and I have personally witnessed the impact snowmobile videos have made not only on the snowmobile community but how many newbies have been brought in by the excitement and hype these videos portray. The Manufactures should be outright ashamed of themselves for not supporting any of them. They love making the magazines rich though, even knowing they are singing to the quire. 3 of the 4 OE M's built empires from building sleds first than other products that far exceed sled based sales. The way they operate you would think they are sacrificing a slow death to a sport we love and there is no other power sport out there that yields the passion or enthusiasm as snowmobiles. There is not a day goes by where I don't shake my head with disgust and ask myself the same question that gets the same answere. Are these people just plain STUPID?? Unfortunately ....Yes. My advise is don't cast your pearls among the swine. They have no appreciation for it.
 
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