Gearing, Clutching, helix, springs, MDS 2016 update

[WyoBoy1000]

After running the 40* with 2.45 gears.

Everything is for 10k elevation

Throttle response want what I thought, but the backshift was really good. But the upshift was not good.
Fighting to gain speed. In the trees it would pull good track speed and worked great but it just back shifted to hard.

Got to thinking about it and with the gear up trying to run tip weight in the mds it changed the shift timing.
With gears it works better to load the middle to get more throttle response, with stock gears the tip works better.

So this time I went with 2.45 gears, 48* helix but installed a 200/280 sw spring. Stock 180/240.
120/310 primary, sled bolt in tip, sorry bolt in middle. Worked ok. 7450rpm.
Pulled to weight, worked better, I like the throttle response but rpm was 7500 to 7800.
But it still ran better across the range but not optimal anywhere.
I'm going to play around until I hit rpm with the 48* just to see what it does, then try the 43 with different springs.

So far the easiest that I know works good is the 43* a slight or no gear up. MDS weights, tip loaded with 120/285 spring. Replace stock secondary spring with sw 180/240, stock spring goes bad in a few hundred miles.

I may wind up with a 45* or who knows what,

 

[CO 2.0]

What track speed were you getting yesterday?

 

[WyoBoy1000]

Couldn't see it enough to know for sure, it pulled good. The 40* pulled better if your barely moving. But I was also down on power only turning 75-7600 rpm on average.

I like the feel of the shift but need to get a little better backshift and the rpm dialed before I know.

Really wish the spring tension was adjustable for tuning

 

[TRUEBLUEMAX]

I've been reading about a different helix depending on the build date. Is there an easy way to tell? I want to change the gearing to the 20/49 so I guess your suggestions will be a good place to start.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[summ8rmk]

I put the team primary with MDS on my 14 with 20/49 gears stock secondary with 36° helix.
I have a 153 2.6 claw and run @ 7k ft. I finally ended up with a polaris 100/340 spring, gold bolt (5.5g) in the tip and the super short (2.5g) in the middle great track speed and pulls good throughout. At 70-75mph it still has some pull not flat like it was when it was stock with 19/50 gears.

GS6

 

[richardderkevorkian]

I've been reading about a different helix depending on the build date. Is there an easy way to tell? I want to change the gearing to the 20/49 so I guess your suggestions will be a good place to start.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pull your secondary off and it's stamped on the back

 

[CO 2.0]

I was hitting 8250-8400 rpm yesterday same snow north of where you were. 34-38mph. Too high of rpm on paper, but it works great. Same outcome with my axys. Still need to add smallest screw to bottom of mds and try it on cat. On the cat and axys I pull 3mph slower track speed at 10k ft when rpm is down to 8100 compared to 8300. Im gonna go for instant backshift over less upshift in the heavier snow this spring. Has worked great that way on all past sleds.

40 helix
20/49 gearing
7 tooth
083 belt
125/340 SW primary w spring cup and glide washer
180/270 SW secondary spring
Mds unloaded

 

[knifedge]

After running the 40* with 2.45 gears.

Everything is for 10k elevation

Throttle response want what I thought, but the backshift was really good. But the upshift was not good.
Fighting to gain speed. In the trees it would pull good track speed and worked great but it just back shifted to hard.

Got to thinking about it and with the gear up trying to run tip weight in the mds it changed the shift timing.
With gears it works better to load the middle to get more throttle response, with stock gears the tip works better.

So this time I went with 2.45 gears, 48* helix but installed a 200/280 sw spring. Stock 180/240.
120/310 primary, sled bolt in tip, sorry bolt in middle. Worked ok. 7450rpm.
Pulled to weight, worked better, I like the throttle response but rpm was 7500 to 7800.
But it still ran better across the range but not optimal anywhere.
I'm going to play around until I hit rpm with the 48* just to see what it does, then try the 43 with different springs.

So far the easiest that I know works good is the 43* a slight or no gear up. MDS weights, tip loaded with 120/285 spring. Replace stock secondary spring with sw 180/240, stock spring goes bad in a few hundred miles.

I may wind up with a 45* or who knows what,

-So stock gearing is ok...is that correct?

--Or is that a slight gear up from 2.45 to say 2.50 ish?

 

[03Firecatguy]

I'm going to need a kick *** setup for a 17 153 with Jawz pipe kit. Get going on that!

 

[knifedge]

I was hitting 8250-8400 rpm yesterday same snow north of where you were. 34-38mph. Too high of rpm on paper, but it works great. Same outcome with my axys. Still need to add smallest screw to bottom of mds and try it on cat. On the cat and axys I pull 3mph slower track speed at 10k ft when rpm is down to 8100 compared to 8300. Im gonna go for instant backshift over less upshift in the heavier snow this spring. Has worked great that way on all past sleds.

40 helix
20/49 gearing
7 tooth
083 belt
125/340 SW primary w spring cup and glide washer
180/270 SW secondary spring
Mds unloaded

----

Looks good

I will probably stick with 43 helix

 

[WyoBoy1000]

I was hitting 8250-8400 rpm yesterday same snow north of where you were. 34-38mph. Too high of rpm on paper, but it works great. Same outcome with my axys. Still need to add smallest screw to bottom of mds and try it on cat. On the cat and axys I pull 3mph slower track speed at 10k ft when rpm is down to 8100 compared to 8300. Im gonna go for instant backshift over less upshift in the heavier snow this spring. Has worked great that way on all past sleds.

40 helix
20/49 gearing
7 tooth
083 belt
125/340 SW primary w spring cup and glide washer
180/270 SW secondary spring
Mds unloaded

I'm trying to get that for the low end all the way through with taller gears. I never ran the 48 so I needed to know what happens so I went to far too feel the difference.

Going to try the 43 with 200/280 but first I want to try hitting rpm with the 48, then change to the 43 so I know the difference

 

[armey37]

Summ8rmk,

I run almost the same setup as you. A black Polaris 100/340 Spring, Mds 2.5+.8 tips and 2.5 in the middle. Stock 14 secondary. I've ran 20/49 all year tell last weekend at Mt Baker (4to 7,000ft) which I switched back to 19/50 and liked it more then the 20/49 and had better pull on the bottom in. I never really felt that running out feeling with the lower gears like I did when it was completely stock. Im guessing since I have the clutch dialed in and I'm using the motor/gearing/clutching to their full potential. What rpms are you pulling consistently with your weight set up at elevations? I'm 7920 to 8050 in the steep and deep.



QUOTE=summ8rmk;3950029]I put the team primary with MDS on my 14 with 20/49 gears stock secondary with 36° helix.
I have a 153 2.6 claw and run @ 7k ft. I finally ended up with a polaris 100/340 spring, gold bolt (5.5g) in the tip and the super short (2.5g) in the middle great track speed and pulls good throughout. At 70-75mph it still has some pull not flat like it was when it was stock with 19/50 gears.

GS6[/QUOTE]

 

[summ8rmk]

I haven't got to ride any deep stuff since i put the 100/340 spring in.
About 12in of heavy wet snow and i was pulling 8000-8100.
Track speed was 43+. All of the long hills were tracked up and the people i was with didn't want to go find freshies so i couldn't test.
2 days ago we had 8in of good stuff on top of some setup snow and track speed was 48-49 and 8000-8100rpm @6k ft. Pulled hard from the bottom all the way to the top.

GS6

 

[WyoBoy1000]

So I have some weird stuff going on.

120/310 spring, short drilled bolt in middle of mds, 48* 200/280 spring.
It runs good but won't backshift, rpm is between 7800-8100 sometimes will drop to 7500. Pulled 35-39mph track speed in decent powder.

So I installed a 125/340 spring to see if it would hold rpm. It held a little better but still would drop.

So I put the 43* helix in with 200/280 spring. And 120/310 spring.
It held better but still lost rpm. 35-36mph track speed.
The first setup felt like it shifted better and if I got a run it would pull higher speeds to the hill even with worse backshift.
Just really not sure why it wouldn't hold rpm with the 43 and heavy spring.

I'm geared up to 2.45 and my 14 had no problem pulling 2.42.
Thinking about going to a 8t again.

Some could be from the kmod as you have to run a tighter track.

I'm going to go up to the 2.54 just to see what I think and mess with helix.

So far I liked the first setup on this post the best out of any setup I've ran.

I think something else might be going on. Hard to stop and change out parts when having fun.


2017 mc
With mds weights
Put short bolt in middle hole, 43* helix, 120/310 sw spring. Stock gears on the 17 is 2.63 Runs good! Can't really compare to mine with kmod. I can tell my track is a little weak. Nothing like a new 3" powerclaw. Got some good u turns. I think the 8t drivers help a bunch.

 

[richardderkevorkian]

So I have some weird stuff going on.

120/310 spring, short drilled bolt in middle of mds, 48* 200/280 spring.
It runs good but won't backshift, rpm is between 7800-8100 sometimes will drop to 7500. Pulled 35-39mph track speed in decent powder.

So I installed a 125/340 spring to see if it would hold rpm. It held a little better but still would drop.

So I put the 43* helix in with 200/280 spring. And 120/310 spring.
It held better but still lost rpm. 35-36mph track speed.
The first setup felt like it shifted better and if I got a run it would pull higher speeds to the hill even with worse backshift.
Just really not sure why it wouldn't hold rpm with the 43 and heavy spring.

I'm geared up to 2.45 and my 14 had no problem pulling 2.42.
Thinking about going to a 8t again.

Some could be from the kmod as you have to run a tighter track.

I'm going to go up to the 2.54 just to see what I think and mess with helix.

So far I liked the first setup on this post the best out of any setup I've ran.

I think something else might be going on. Hard to stop and change out parts when having fun.


2017 mc
With mds weights
Put short bolt in middle hole, 43* helix, 120/310 sw spring. Stock gears on the 17 is 2.63 Runs good! Can't really compare to mine with kmod. I can tell my track is a little weak. Nothing like a new 3" powerclaw. Got some good u turns. I think the 8t drivers help a bunch.

why are you using such a heavy secondary spring? iv achieved everything i need out of the secondary with a 155/240.

if its losing rpm on a hill you should try a multi angle helix from stm like a 44/38 or a 48/38

 

[ACTM7]

19/50

16 With stock gearing an clutching are we seeing clutches shift all way ? I am back to stock gearing but 43 helix an spring from racin station mds weights with lots of tip weight an can pull more mph than stock helix an stock weights .

 

[Marble]

I have a 16' M8000 LTD 3'' 162 and my wife have 16' M6000 3'' 153. we ride at 3000'

On both sled, sluggish backshift on stock gearing/stock clutching

My wife's M6000 dont need a strong setup like me, she learn to ride, so when i try it, i do a small change.

On my M8000, i'm riding 19/50 only one ride, after i'm putting 20/49 and this thing help to get more load on engine, i'm riding this gearing until last week. This Easter weekend, i'm puting 21/49 (to get same final ratio than 17' MC), i love it, i feel than the sled take out more track speed than before. (i never look my trackspeed on speedo, it's on feeling and versus my friend's sleds.. Axys.Proclimb, ProRMK,Summit)

I'm playing on clutching this winter. I don't try MDS weight. My best secondary spring between 140/200, 155/240 and 180/240 is the 155/240.
I tried 66/49-0.20... lazy....48 straight, very minor better, i put a STM 44/42progressive, and backshift are amazing, little loose upshift but i'm playing with a weight distribution on weight arm. . Stock weight it's too tipped at my idea. I know than is not a great thing to do but i'm welding at 77-78gr the stock 72gr weights than come with sled and i'm play on weight distribution, tip weight... middle weight, heel weight . My best setup look like Cat clutch weight or .... Team 4stroke weight... so i buy J14-76gr.

Current and best setup:
083 belt
21/49 gearing, 7T sprocket
85/225 Team primary spring
J14-76gr weight (i take heavier weight, 77.1; 77.0; 76.9)
44/42 progressive helix
155/240 secondary spring
Rpm are at 8000 on deep, 8100 on hardpack/trail

M6000 current setup, i don't play alot on it
19/50 gearing, 7T sprocket
083 belt
100/340 Poo primary spring
J13-66 weight
44/42 progressive helix
155/240 secondary spring
Next test on it, 20/50 gearing

I play alot on suspension, i love the new front and rear geometry of 16', Evol shock do amazing job on stock form when you ajust it right, revalving (like my M8000 are better)

I order a new Cat skinny running board in 17' accessory book. I feel than stock running board are too wide when the snow are harder like spring snow. I never have issues on deep powder snow this winter, but on this spring snow.. i notice than sled is little harder to keep on edge.

Thank at everybody sharing their observation here!

 

[Dam Dave]

14 and 16 primary and secondary are totally different and performance is totally different, primary setup with 16 sec is way different than primary set up for 14 sec, at same elevation that is

Summ8rmk,

I run almost the same setup as you. A black Polaris 100/340 Spring, Mds 2.5+.8 tips and 2.5 in the middle. Stock 14 secondary. I've ran 20/49 all year tell last weekend at Mt Baker (4to 7,000ft) which I switched back to 19/50 and liked it more then the 20/49 and had better pull on the bottom in. I never really felt that running out feeling with the lower gears like I did when it was completely stock. Im guessing since I have the clutch dialed in and I'm using the motor/gearing/clutching to their full potential. What rpms are you pulling consistently with your weight set up at elevations? I'm 7920 to 8050 in the steep and deep.



QUOTE=summ8rmk;3950029]I put the team primary with MDS on my 14 with 20/49 gears stock secondary with 36° helix.
I have a 153 2.6 claw and run @ 7k ft. I finally ended up with a polaris 100/340 spring, gold bolt (5.5g) in the tip and the super short (2.5g) in the middle great track speed and pulls good throughout. At 70-75mph it still has some pull not flat like it was when it was stock with 19/50 gears.

GS6

[/QUOTE]

 

[summ8rmk]

14 and 16 primary and secondary are totally different and performance is totally different, primary setup with 16 sec is way different than primary set up for 14 sec, at same elevation that is

[/QUOTE]
Y?
Y does the primary change?


GS6

 

[WyoBoy1000]

Primary is very close to the same, just way better.

Secondary is a lot different.

I tried the heavy spring to see if the 48 would work, you always want the steepest helix you can run, but will also backshift and hold rpm within 1-200 rpm.

This is with 2.45 gears (calculated as final with 7t)
The part I find odd is the 48 with stiff spring is the most responsive across the board and still pulls hard even with rpm drop. The 40* holds the best backshift and works great if your never over 40mph over that it doesn't want to shift up very fast. You would think the 43 would still hold rpm. But I lost some of the upshift and it still had to much rpm fluctuation.

With stock (2.86) and 2.54 gears it will pull the 43 great. Which makes sense, but my 14 had 2.42 gears with 8t driver and had a broad shift range, only thing lacking was high speed shift was slow.

When I ran stock gears with cat weights 66g and 120/285 spring and 43* it pulled great. Noticeably more performance than a 48* with 64g weights and far more throttle response.

Then I added mds weights 120/285 with 3.6g in the tip, 43* stock 180/240 secondary spring and that again was a noticeable jump. All compared to feel and other similar sleds.
We setup a 17 the same way and it is better than the stock setup.
It ran pretty even with all the other sleds with pipes, my sled, etc... biggest difference was the new track being stiff hooked up better than our broke in tracks.

To me, I should be able to get similar performance and shift as my 14. In fact it should be better.

I'm going to switch a few more things, I'll compare the cat weights against the mds some more just as an indicator. Might even put the stock skid back in for testing purposes against the 17.
Change gearing around, possibly a 8t driver. Every setup I've ran had a good spot, just need to get it ask put together.
Maybe it's not possible to get it all but I can tell there is more.
The other weird thing is that no matter what I have for gearing and clutching the top speed hasn't changed at all, which is really strange to me.