Fix Kits!

[indydan]

Indy Dan,

Honest question, On your video how do we know that the length of the intake isn't just a different length on the 13 motor. That's all it looks like you are measuring. I don't see how that measures anything with the crank or any offset there might be.
Maybe I just don't know what I am looking for. Can you please explain?

Thank you for taking the time to make the video.

Great question KC.

Ok, first of all the only reason I choose to show a caliper measurement on the reed area was because its so easy to see.

After I figured out the the upper case on the 13 had positioned the cylinder slightly rearward I looked for the easy way to show it to someone.

Put your head into the engineers head that decided to alter the cylinder location, chances are it was done with corrective software that said ( when you slide the cylinder back the reeds are going to move back and air box fit is going to change ) So I figured if he Z'ed the case so to speak then he probably took a similar amount out of the reed blocks....... And sure as heck there it was. The only case with a shorten reed block.


If the engineer wanted to really hide this he could have over rode the software suggestions and he could have hide all the little things I saw.

If you want to do the almighty check get yourself a piece of 3-1/2 plastic stock 8 inches long machine in done to 3.345 and then machine 4 inches down to 1 inch.

Then put it in the mill and mill 2 flat spots 180 degrees from each other.

Then assemble and empty 13 case, set any cylinder on it then take a peak down the bearing bore and look what side it favors.

If you can't see it machine up another plug and put it in the other hole and run a straight edge down along both plugs and measure the front and back distance of the 2.8335 bearing bore you will have the exact off set.

The sleeve extensions on a 2013 cylinder are thicker front and rear "( not just the intake like Kelsey mentioned )

The 2013 is a completely different motor then the 2012 and it will give a much better service life then older motors.

This off set means Polaris now knows there was a problem, if the rod was longer they would not have had to off set the cylinder.

IMO THE 2013 with a long rod will be the most dependable high mileage 800 motor ever offered to the public by any manufacture to date.



Dan

 

[Kcjepperson]

That's makes more sense than measuring the intake, IMO, I was looking for something exactly in the middle of the bore and then measuring off that each direction to show any offset.

Thank you for explaining.

 

[indydan]

That's makes more sense than measuring the intake, IMO, I was looking for something exactly in the middle of the bore and then measuring off that each direction to show any offset.

Thank you for explaining.

Your welcome.

Sometimes things are really hard to explain... or better yet invision.

This example might simplify what Polaris did.

Imagin your motor all together with the crankshaft bolted in sitting on the floor exhaust port side facing down..... Now imagin The engineer putting his foot on the bottom case 1/2 and grabbing the reed blocks and pulling them towards himself and stretching the top 1/2 of the case about 2mm straight back.

That's why it's hard to see

This why I measured the reed blocks in the demo.

You can also use 2 straight edges...... 1 accross the reed blocks and the other on the edge of the rear
Cylinder bolt holes then compare it to any other year.

Dan

 

[indydan]

New snowest user here...not a new sledder. I recently had to rebuild my motor (top and bottom) after it spit out the cage of the PTO side crank bearing, resulting in "cold seize" on the PTO side piston/cylinder. Sled had 2442 hard miles on it. I rebuild it with RKTek Pistons and 13:1 head. One huge plus I find to the RKTek stuff is that the Wossner pistons were a full 38g lighter than the factory pistons, and 100% equal in weight. Factory pistons were 2g different. I didn't like the idea of the "fix kits" with a 1/4" spacer between the cylinder and base, to me creating another seam is asking for another issue (tho I realize many peeps have used these kits without fail, I don't feel it was the way to go for me). I've put on 3-400 mountain miles since the rebuild and I'm very impressed and happy with the increase in power, quicker throttle response, increase in rpm, and smooth running...

For me, best 800$ spent.

As I said before, your stock pistons were collapsed at 1000 miles.

If you save your old Orem pistons, and then run the woosners 2400 miles they will be collapsed worse then the Oem.

Any new piston with a fresh skirt width will make throttle response better then you increased compression with the head.

You would have seen the exact same thing with anyone's piston and anyone's 13:1 head.

The woosners are lighter, and you will surely see reduced clutch service life.

I am not picking on the woosner pistons, it's a proven fact lighter pistons in Polaris sm block motors wears the clutch out faster.
And makes it feel zingyer !!

Not really a good thing. The longer rods smoothens the motor more then any other mod and increases clutch service life.


Dan

 

[snowmobiler]

indy hits a home run.

 

[xTonyCRx]

Dan,

I see how the 2013 offset will reduce the intake skirt side loading but I was wondering if the power delivery of the engine would be effected at all? It seems to me that a slight change in offset would change how the piston moves in the bore in relation to the crank pin thus changing the moment arms and forces throughout the stroke.

Any observations?

 

[mattymac]

They are both great when designed and manufactured correctly.. But here are a few facts

1) ALL NASCAR engines use a forged piston
2) ALL Top Fuel Dragsters use a forged piston
3) ALL Motocross (factory level) engines use a forged piston


QUOTE]






Great thread! Lots of good info here boys!!!! I think anyone who is reading this has learned something and thats what these forums were intended to do!

So I just wanna get this right here kelsy, ya know with the facts...

We are talking about longterm reliability here on this thread your comparing some of the most short term engines on the planet in relation to a long term reliability topic??? I guess if we were talking solely from a high performance all out horsepower topic then thats a diffrent thread since I dont think anybody reading this are going for the land speed record or 1/4 mile ET record on a polaris pro 800.

anybody know what style of pistons are in say a good ol' 5.9 cummins? yeah but cast is good for long term high mileage service life, the cummins motors arent known for big power...... OH, wait...

 

[indydan]

They are both great when designed and manufactured correctly.. But here are a few facts

1) ALL NASCAR engines use a forged piston
2) ALL Top Fuel Dragsters use a forged piston
3) ALL Motocross ( factory level ) engines use a forged piston


QUOTE]






Great thread! Lots of good info here boys!!!! I think anyone who is reading this has learned something and thats what these forums were intended to do!

So I just wanna get this right here kelsy, ya know with the facts...

We are talking about longterm reliability here on this thread your comparing some of the most short term engines on the planet in relation to a long term reliability topic??? I guess if we were talking solely from a high performance all out horsepower topic then thats a diffrent thread since I dont think anybody reading this are going for the land speed record or 1/4 mile ET record on a polaris pro 800.

anybody know what style of pistons are in say a good ol' 5.9 cummins? yeah but cast is good for long term high mileage service life, the cummins motors arent known for big power...... OH, wait...

MATTY !! You beat me to the punch.

I thought it was so strange to use 3 examples of the highest maintanance,
shortest service life motors in use today to make a forge piston comparrison.

and thats what they are good for.......fit correctly they will work great for a short time then and OEM Pistons for regular user.

Not the Top Fuel driver.

Dan

 

[indydan]

Dan,

I see how the 2013 offset will reduce the intake skirt side loading but I was wondering if the power delivery of the engine would be effected at all? It seems to me that a slight change in offset would change how the piston moves in the bore in relation to the crank pin thus changing the moment arms and forces throughout the stroke.

Any observations?

Good question - The major changes were all done in the top crankcase 1/2.

The 2012 & 2013 cylinders are the exact same length 4.100, and the 2013 base gasket is the same thickness but a different part number because the sleeve O.D. is bigger.

All the heads are the same part number 3022214

And the firing edge of the piston is very close to the same spot.

So all of your concerns are not to worry everything has been adjusted to correct for the off set.

Its funny with the power of the internet I never saw any anyone varify the off set.

I even had a few people call me last summer that said they got a 2013 cylinder for their 2012 motor.......I said really are you sure it will fit ?/

The Phone caller - YEP I HAVE A BUDDY THAT WORKS FOR POLARIS AND HE SAID THEY BOLT RIGHT ON !!


DAN - interesting..... Let me know how that works out.

A month later:


Phone caller - That cylinder didn't fit.... It hit the case so i call my Polaris buddy and he siad i forgot to tell you you have to bore the case. So I had it bored and it went right on.


Dan - Did you center off the old case hole and bore it equal on both sides ??


Caller -...........Pause.....What do you mean ?

Dan - Did the machine shop mention any problems ?


Caller - Nope.


At this point i was pretty sure Polaris had the off set in the case and the cylinder was dimentionaly the same as far as bore to mounting bolt location.
*( if the cylinder was off set they would have had to indicate the case in and off set bore it and not center off the old hole ) * very simple to figure out if
you know how to bait and switch all the right questions.


I wonder how off set they really are ? There not.


Now had he bought a 2013 case and put a 2012 cylinder on it now he has an off set motor.


There is still much more to this small block story.


I will hold my poker hand and wait for Kelsey to explain all the mis-information I have posted.


Dan

 

[Leaf27]

Holy cow !! Things are wild on here !! Ok thanks for the help from Steve a crafty Canadian I got the video converted so it will up load.

Please understand, I was going extremely fast in this video and I threw this pile of parts on a table and told Cade to follow me with my iPhone.

Now I am not going to over tip my hand do to the fact that Kelsey needs to try and figure some of this stuff out on his own before he claims to be gods gift to the Polaris motor.

There is also a lot of examples and data I left out about the differences in short rods & longer rods and the plus and minus of cast or forged pistons. And why one clearance is good for one motor and not another. And why sometimes you have to Taylor to a certain person and where he rides or what he does.

Or if he has a turbo or runs nitrous and so on.


And please cut me alittle slack on the video I was racing to keep it short but I hope most everyone gets the idea of just a few factors that go into these motors.

And I used the most basic example I could think of in the short time I had to show the off set.

Here's a link to the video.

https://vimeo.com/62214565

The off set is in the top half of the case and nothing can be learned by anyone by putting a 2013 upper on a 2012 lower. All the off set is in the upper case half above the bearing area.

Dan

Thanks Dan, great to come on Snowest and actually learn something.

 

[Jaynelson]

Drag motors also use things like aluminum rods, which would be 100% useless to the average user.

That said, there are definitely examples in the automotive world of forged pistons being used for a good amount of power with a long service life. Although there isn't anything in the consumer auto industry that makes anywhere near 180-190hp per liter from the factory, let alone something naturally aspirated with a lightweight block....so I'm not sure what would be a good comparison. Not being smart or condescending, or saying it won't work....just saying it's hard to draw a comparison.


Thanks to all for the great reading.

 

[indydan]

Clearly no centerline off-set...

These are 2013 upper case half mounted on a 2012 lower case half

This example shows we are on a completely different chapter.

 

[jims68]

Forged to Cast

Dan your the man again! This is why I call him or send a joke with a question and he responds back usually laughing and I send him my stuff no fuss no muss! By the way your setup was spot on for Island Park two weekends ago! Made my trip fun for once I was not the one with problems or testing! Answer me this anyone! Other 13 with us installed brand new he says VForce III reeds and in a short time they would start to break about a 1/3 of the way down inside or outside sets? He happened to remember Skidoos would work so we modified some to get him going for the second day but had the same problem towards the end of the day.

Now back to a couple of examples from the drag racing days. 1981 SRX chassis with a improved 440 motor from Pat Hauck. He took 1976 340 srx rods, sleeved cylinders then bored them for a 1982 RM 250 piston. Cut boost ports in upper top intake side and cut a port through sleeve about 1/2" x1/2". Shimmed cylinders and ran 46.5mm polished and knife cut carbs and re-domed heads. Sled weighed 304 when done without studs, ran at 10200 rpm,s with stock 81 clutch and 77 srx weights highly modified. Claimed hp at 120+ and ran on 112 race gas with the cast pistons. Now when I got it all you could find were forged. Cast were not made by Suzuki anymore. Former owner in Chicago had problems scuffing pistons till he started running 116 non nitro fuel. Motor cc'd at 440 but Pat used Math to actually make it more like a 500 1982 SRX. He was never caught and now has this motor back in his possession. I could not LEGALLY run this sled in any division so I sold it. Why the need for so much more octane HMMMMMM!

Last motor I built was back in 2006 770 Union Bay setup. Again shimmed cylinders and bored to fit Yamaha Waverunner pistons. All you had to do was cut down the skirts and move the rings a little. After I had some initial problems with burn downs, original owner had the high cc domes cut so they were a LITTLE tight Thanks Engine Tech!, and after discussing with the Union Bay guys before they closed shop about why they used cast. Plane and simple was they lasted longer and didn't not need the warm up time, expansion, so WAY less fuss. That thing was a Raped Ape and is still out there somewhere!

In the SRX I had to run at least .006 to make it last in a 660 and the Union Bay was .0045 to .0055. Now Pat had messed with knurling the pistons and I tried a set in the SRX but they wore out much faster and really didn't gain anything.

Now we go the the 2013 Pro. Gas and go, no missing skin and love this thing. Forged have there place just have never found it in my world yet. We use to cheat and lighten stock cast pistons and run say a 440 fly wheel on a bigger motor so your throttle response was close to wild even with the big old round slide carbs BUT your harmonics through your crank would change dramatically so your clutches wore out faster and if you tried to trail ride it take out your crank in a short amount of time. I am more amazed at what SUBTLE changes do to a motor or chassis then when a big swing is taken. I learn NOTHING from that. Below is my 770 baby that was built ALL from used and new parts and tried to make as POLARIS as possible to fix on a trip. Loved it but could not hold a stick to the new ones. That is why I bought a new one.

Answer me this anyone! What can be done with Muriatic Acid and Aluminum besides cleaning up aluminum on a cast cylinder?

THE END

 

[mountainhorse]

Wink

​

.

 

[mountainhorse]

In terms of CAST or Forged pistons ONLY.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that all Cast and all Forged pistons are alike...and exhibit the same characteristics.

Design and not material are HUGE in the piston "equation".

The pistons that Polaris uses are cast ELKO pistons made in Europe (Austria).. very high quality...but just look at the ELKO 2005 and 2006 900 cast pistons... one was "good" the other not so much.

The ELKO pistons ARE high QUALITY... but poor specification, stock, for overall ... the LR changes the loading dynamics of the piston and adds longevity... the stock piston with the stock setup is the part that is remedied.

To be fair and on the flip side of the coin.

A proper question here would be, have RKT Forged pistons shown that they have cold-seizure issues or not?




.

 

[mountainhorse]

Life is good...

Breathe easily ...




.

 

[tdorval]

Quick question for Dan. RKT has said 2013 has a new crank/supplier that is better (fugi) would you agree with that statement? I'm contemplating refreshing my 11 or updating to a 13, it sounds like the 13 may be a better option but I'm trying to weigh everything out here.

Thanks

 

[indydan]

In terms of CAST or Forged pistons ONLY.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that all Cast and all Forged pistons are alike...and exhibit the same characteristics.

Design and not material are HUGE in the piston "equation".

The pistons that Polaris uses are cast ELKO pistons made in Europe (Austria).. very high quality...but just look at the ELKO 2005 and 2006 900 cast pistons... one was "good" the other not so much.

The ELKO pistons ARE high QUALITY... but poor specification, stock, for overall ... the LR changes the loading dynamics of the piston and adds longevity... the stock piston with the stock setup is the part that is remedied.

To be fair and on the flip side of the coin.

A proper question here would be, have RKT Forged pistons shown that they have cold-seizure issues or not?


.

Hi Eric, yes there is a flip side and I still use forged pistons once in awhile.

And being Woosner is a German company I have a pretty good feeling they are good pistons.

The problem is a certain someone parade's around on here like he is the almighty god to the piston world and his piston which is not his pistons its a Woosner Piston other people have drop shipped here before from CVTECH of what ever company sells them to be fitted.

I sold a good friend on Mine last year a set of Wisco prolites for his 1100 watercraft Nitrous motor....... The cylinders were alittle loose and I told him they will work great and a few hundred pounds of Nitrous later its still going.

Kelsey causes high defense tactics and to be honest I do not have time for this type of BS.

Its tiring.

Thanks for letting the thread go.

Dan

 

[indydan]

Quick question for Dan. RKT has said 2013 has a new crank/supplier that is better (fugi) would you agree with that statement? I'm contemplating refreshing my 11 or updating to a 13, it sounds like the 13 may be a better option but I'm trying to weigh everything out here.

Thanks

Good question.

There are 2 different crankshafts ( type 1 - 3753 ) ( type 2- 0262 ) both are engraved on the crank snout.

The type 2 is a Fuji.

The type 1 is a mape

At this ppoint in time I do not have enough date to answer that.

There is so few problems with the mape crank that i don't see worrying about spending the money to switch.

if I had could pick which one I want to run I would take a fuji first.

Dan

 

[RKT]

ALL I can say is "WOW".

Does anybody, besides myself, see that the video posted shows nothing and proves nothing about the relation of the crank center-line to the cylinder center?? All it is showing is the machining changes that were made to accommodate the thicker intake skirt on the 2013 cylinder.

The 2013 cylinder is 100% on center with the crank center. As is the 2011 and the 2012. There has been no changes.

The idea that Polaris would offset the cylinder .070" with respect to the crank is crazy!
Making the claimed offset would put the piston "cocked" with respect to the crank and rod and put much larger pressure EVERYWHERE on the piston itself. It would even, essentially, shorten the EFFECTIVE stroke.

IF, this, cylinder offsetting, was done, the piston would fail in very short order.. not to mention, it is just plain poor design to have ANY engine with a cylinder that is not on center with the crank center.. Especially a large amount like .070"

I will ask the question..

Do you want me to show via this thread (with video) that the 2013 crank is 100% on center with the crank centerline? It is very easy to prove.

People, I am just trying to put out factual information that is relative.. I am not discounting anything but the notion that the upper case half has been offset on the 2013 cylinder. There is no Malice here... but incorrect information about the crank and forged pistons is present in this thread.. ALL I am doing is trying to present the truth and keep it technical in nature. All this name calling and personal attacks from Dan is very unprofessional and certainly uncalled for..

I was hoping it would not come to a "video-off" and that Dan, would see that he has errored and be graceful about it. But, we all know this is not been the case.

OH.. Dan... the Wossner pistons that you get from CVtech (or from any Wossner distributor) are VERY different from the RK Tek Pistons in almost EVERY aspect...Once again, the pistons we offer are OUR design with our chosen materials and components. Just clearing that up for you.