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Fix Kits!

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Kelsey you have finally explained your position! Your a piston man and Dan is a clearance man! Your hook and bait tactics should get you a spot on Celebrity Apprentice! Both of you have very swelled heads but then all successful people do but your tactics on a social medium is just not cool! I have not run or dealt with your stuff so I will stop here! Dan has been spot on when I have needed something and if my question is warranted I get an answer. Same has applied with Hauck, Aaen, Bender, Artco Race, Polaris race on and on. If you BS these guys the phone goes dead or they get personal for wasting there time. But REALY Kelsey forged 4 stroke in your examples is like Mars to earth! We and I include myself with dealers and others in my flatland area that have done this stuff for far to long and have run every combination of cast to forged chromed, nicasil, sleeved in sno twisters, srx's, zr's whatever we could modify with usually my stuff being the guinea pig. Stock configurations ALLWAYS last the longest! Sometimes all they need is a little help. The minimum we have been able to make a forged piston last in RACING applications is .006 unless you dump a ton of fuel to it so the dome doesn't go squeak! They expand too fast and too far compared to cast in a naturally aspirated motor! When I can take a motor down in 400 feet it is either too tight or lean! Only other way is a bad crank, phase or way out of tolerance. We even tried oxy propylene which was dumb and we didn't know enough about at the time. This is something that has been going on for way longer then any of us on this forum have been around. Comes down to warranty, cost and profit margins. Didn't Chevy just have some issues with piston slap! Just rebuilt an 800 cat with this same problem all be it 2003. My ZR's had it and they were 600's. There was a time when clutches wore out motors and it wasn't that far back! Remember the 1980 srx's? Most beautiful sled ever produced in my mind. I found my third one from a guy in Utah that saved it from a dealer there. It had 1600 mountain miles on it and still had mountain clutching in it. Hood and seat gone but the motor was like new yet! Why is that? Come to find out it was ridden at 8 to 10000 feet all of its life! Here at 1800 at 1000 miles it would of needed pistons. Clutch would of needed rebuilding every 2 to 400 depending on the operator. Don't get me wrong mountain ridding is still hard on machines but the design margins are way less because of the loss in horse power! Enough rambling if the manufacturers could control us users maybe they could build a tighter motor not? Of course not because they need them to wear out to sell more hence your management and bean counters. Kelsey you and Dan are there biggest nightmares because now they live longer! Warrantys sell more sleds, cars, campers whatever. That is what angers me! Now I am hearing there is a dollar limit on my 4 year warranty? We should be up in arms! When I need my warranty is the 4th year! Enough wasted energy! Good Night! Out!

Jim, thanks for your response.. The personal attacks... Not so much...
Sound slike you have some racing experience, as do I.. Much is always learned from trying new things (pistons , fuels, clutching etc.) throughout decades of running these engines.. no doubt.. These engines are so fun!!

I will try and respond to a few of your statements. Please do not take offense because none is intended.

1)Clearance: There is not 1 production , snowmobile, 82mm or larger CAST piston that comes from the factory with a .004" or even .0045" piston to cylinder wall clearance..Smaller bore sizes.. you bet, but not the larger bores. ALL of them are .005" or larger .. CAT 800 is the tightest at .005" the others are larger.

2) Forged Pistons: You are 100% correct, that if you take an off the shelf forged piston and install it in an engine and pour the coals to it for extended periods, it will usually fail... NOW.. If one spends 2-3 years working on a piston design to address this issue, then you can design this "fail" out of the piston. That is what we have done... Our forged piston does not require ANY "soft glove" treatment. It can and is treated as a you would the OEM cast piston.. So, you get OEM "character" with all the benefits that accompany the forged piston (and there are many) and you do NOT neeed to run excessive clearances...I Think you must agree that there are some very good benefits that accompany a forged piston?? Hence the reason ALL the top race engines in ANY sport utilize them exclusively..

3)Sea level vs. Mountain: Again, 100% true about the power levels in the mountains vs. the lower elevations. the engine is surely making less power at elevation (stock for stock). OK.. So, now add in higher compression, larger bores, exhaust and intake systems, cylinder porting.. AND, the TURBO.. and ..you now have an engine that is making equal or MORE power than the stock engine AT ELEVATION and also being PUNISHED on the mountain, in a manner that can not be duplicated on a lake..

Point being...once you mod the engine, the delta between the power outputs lessens or even switches... So, the entire engine is subjected to even higher stress levels than production designed it for.

4)Polaris Warranty: I hear ya on that one.. it appears that the fine print on the warranty is pretty specific (and fine printed).. Bummer for sure for all those that are finding that out after the fact.. I get those phone calls every week and it is a sad deal to have a scattered engine and no support from the warranty that you thought you had.. All I can suggest is to not install the same "short lifetime" products back into the engine that have you stranded.. You can upgrade to the 2013 crank, install better pistons and you will be better off in the long run... It is very unfortunate that these sleds cost so darn much money and can not go the distance of the old SRX...
 
i've used rkt drop in kits on 2 of my own sleds and plan on getting another one for for my sons 11 pro that he just bought.these kits work great,and are as advertised,nice power gain and simple to install.plus the price is very reasonable 700 to 800.00 bucks. kelsey is also a local guy.very nice to deal with.i've had questions for him sent him a pm and had almost an instant responce from him even after hours. dan seems like a great guy also but can't or won't admit to him self that there is more than one way to skin a cat(or a polaris). dan chooses to warranty the motors he sells but he is selling whole motors. do you expect kelsy to warrant your whole engine for the price of a good set of pistons.:face-icon-small-coo
 
Ok kelsey, you like to speak of derogatory commits towards you, you come on here anytime someone speaks highly of indydan dans kit and pretty call him a liar.... kelsey, how many 900's you got out there running your kit? With how many miles? Poi t being, didn't you just show up in the polaris srmk's!! een? Why do you wish to, down right call indydan dan a liar, he has been making our polaris motors bulletproof for awhile.
 
Jay, great points for sure..

You are right , but there is a big difference between bragging and confidence in ones products You will never see me bragging on a public forum... . But I do not see how having confidence in ones product is a negative thing???

I think one of the main issues is the manner in which I type.. I am a very lousy typer and do NOT "pre-plan" my responses..
I shoot from the hip, so to speak, and I like to get right to the point... This, I KNOW, comes off wrong sometimes and that is unfortunate, but I can not control how "TYPING" is preceived..nor do I have the patience or desire to write some political correct response.

Take this thread, for example, I have not once made any personal attacks or negative comment towards anybody, YET, the perception is that I am doing just that.. People like to infer hidden meanings in all writings and can always find 1 or 12 in there if they ar elooking.. The REAL thing is that I do NOT have any hidden meanings in the responses.. I just call it like I see it and it really shoul dbe taken for what it is NOT for what people can twist it into.

But I can not control that and am OK with it... I fully expect that the bargage of personal attacks from certain people here will continue but I prefer to stay on the technical side of the writing and leave the personal attacks out of it.

In this thread I am ONLY trying to point on mis-conceptions regarding the engine in question.. honestly, trying to HELP other sled owners with FACTUAL information regarding the engine and not THEORY.. MANY see this and benefit, while others try and spin it into a different (negative) light.. I can not control that.

I , honestly, believe that there is some real mis-information with respect to this engine and what is preceived wrong with it and what is realy wrong with it.

Anyway, back to your warranty query. ya know, that Tommy Boy vid sums it up quite well as far as my thoughts on it.. When you are one of the oldest shops in the county , the products speak for themselves due to the history of the company and the obvious attention to detail in the products offered..You do not stay in this business long if the products are sub-par..

Anyway, no harm no foul.. just try and read the responses for their literal meanings and not their "skewed" meanings.. It may surprise you as to what is really being said.
I agree i must not be good at reading cause I have no idea what you're talking about lol

Someone asked if you had a warranty of some type, you said you did, someone asked for clarification, then a bunch of inuendos that we're supposed to make something out of. Unless I missed the boat somewhere.

As mtncat stated above, I also wouldn't expect you warranty the entire motor for just a piston kit; particularly if you don't install it. I don't think either product is sub-par....this is a thread comparing the kits and this is a point of comparison for many people, myself included. There are many other factors, of course, and the more info available, the more points for someone to base their decision on :)
 
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Thanks for keeping this thread open their is some interesting reading here .
I just pass over the non informative ones .
I got to ride one of Kelseys Kit this weekend ,it is diffidently smother than stock , IMO I believe the guy is running to much weight he is running 66 bb and I run 64 bb. It did not seem to have the snap like my kit did but mine is geared lower and I run a trimmed track could be the difference . I waited for Tom to say it first about the low end grunt before I brought it up . Tom is this owner of the sled both are 11 pros.
IMO any kit you choose will be better than stock I would have no problem running RKT kit . I do not believe Indy Dans has one in are area ,it would be nice if we could get the 4 top kits together and ride for a day to compare.
Keep up the great work guys .It is always a great day of riding when you make it back under your own power.
 
Clearance

Kelsey that is a great explanation above and is Exactly what I was looking for. I did a little bait and hook on you so you can feel what it is like! I understand why you do not want to show your hand any but on here if you don't the trust thing will never happen. Now that I have seen you open the door a little bit I would DEFIANTLY talk to you or try one of your products. The only thing above I would not agree with is the apples to oranges comparison of the TURBO! You cannot take above said setup down to my elevation without adjustment or change or fuel, many factors and not leave a pile of parts here! If these devices were linear that would be great but they are not. I was doing an apples to apples example I guess. Don't get me wrong Turbos have there place and are a great product but will push you over Design Limits REALLY fast if you get my drift! You and others drop in kits definitely help correct lets say a BIG issue with *.*aris large bore motors and Dan goes beyond this for a greater dollar factor to help correct a design miscalculation and bring things in to tolerance with the added benefits of a long term warranty and no piston replacement every 2000 miles or so. To keep a Warm Fuzzy Feeling with a drop in you would still need to replace said pistons every so often! Kind of like comparing a gas to diesel pickup, I know not apple to apple but this is what people do, and where you regain said investment. How many miles to recover added diesel cost and fuel cost for one. What you are going to do with them two. How long you are keeping them three. How big of an ego you have four and many more. Pick your poison I guess. On top of it Pola*.* would of not let there bean counters or stock holders or maybe it was ROI "return on investment" fog there design process this would not be happening but then neither one of you would have anything to talk about or sell to use bottom feeders then either!! Where I am going here is this has been like Ground Hog Day or a bad episode of Orange County Chopper's! You two aren't related or brothers by different mothers or something? You two are very passionate about what you do and need to get together for a meal or drinks and NOT talk shop. Maybe get to know each other and who knows where that will lead you two. I could see this turning into a door busting throwing stuff around bad made for TV thing if one of you don't put out a hand or something. Now do what you have to do or put on a pair of Rose Colored Glass's and continue!!!! Good Luck
 
2013 CYLINDER OFF SET EXAMPLE

Kelsey there so many things your incorrect about I do not know where to start or stop.

I made a video with a 2008 motor, 2011 & a 2013 motor. ( the video went over 6 minutes ) and I can't figure out how to get it to snowest. It won't even allow me to e-mail it. ( can anyone help with this )


The video shows all kinds little measurements that proves how misleading you can be when you want to sell your stuff and you slander my stuff with mass quanities is BS and no proof.

Heres a few pictures to show you where the off set is.......... You say its not there.

all cases from 2008 thru 2012 are exactly the same in relation to crankshaft centerline except the 2013

Kelsey I see you have countless other stupid questions....I will address all of them and maybe it will stop you from jumping on threads spewing your theroies instead of facts.

I will also answer the good questions that were asked by many of you once I get the vidoe to post ( the video will explain alot so I do not have to type so much.

Thanks, Dan

PS - Kelsey..... ( I have better things to do then teach you things about Polaris motors )

You are so hung up on facts about the Polaris small block you should first make sure you know something about them before you mouth off.

Just under 2mm of Off set and you just put it up in print that i am wrong......and their is not an off set ? Remember you have both motors on the bench ?

I was out of town all week-end and I figured you would hang yourslef out to dry if I left you alone long enough.

Don't you drive a ski doo ??

800 SMALL BLOCK CASE PICTIRES 001.jpg 800 SMALL BLOCK CASE PICTIRES 003.jpg 800 SMALL BLOCK CASE PICTIRES 005.jpg 800 SMALL BLOCK CASE PICTIRES 006.jpg
 
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Just to Clarify..

Polaris did not offset the cylinder.. it is in the SAME location as before with respect to the rod and bore.. ALL they did is thicken the intake lower skirt... To accomodate this they, needed to remachine the case as well... But no change has been made in any other area..
Cylinder and case are unchanged except to allow for the thicker skirt fitting..
I have both engines on the bench and have the proper measuring equipment to determine this...
Not trying to be rude.. just sayin' and correcting misinformation.

QUOTE]

Thank you for not being rude, And thanks a bunch for correcting my mis information. ( I DID NOT POST ANY MISINFORMATION ) you are the one who takes care of that in this thread.

Dan
 
Ok kelsey, you like to speak of derogatory commits towards you, you come on here anytime someone speaks highly of indydan dans kit and pretty call him a liar.... kelsey, how many 900's you got out there running your kit? With how many miles? Poi t being, didn't you just show up in the polaris srmk's!! een? Why do you wish to, down right call indydan dan a liar, he has been making our polaris motors bulletproof for awhile.

YES AND THIS IS EXACTLY THE WAY I SEE IT WITH YOU KELSEY !!

Who really has both motors on the bench ? I have every year Polaris made here the shop and alot more then just one each.

Your the Liar. ( DON'T YOU EVER INSINUATE THAT I AM A LIAR AGAIN ) it looks like your making things up just to sell pistons.

and I don't think you meansure as many cylinders as you would like everyone to believe. Take a good look at my bore guage and look how far it travels
for .0001 ( 1 full circle is .010 thou ) most discount bore guages are .100 thou for 1 circle. ( maybe when you were measuring the case off set you were using a stanley steel tape meausre ?

Kelsey.... I have to much work to do to be playing around with you.

And I also know exactly where you ride,

I am 50 yrs old... alittle out of shape and have riden with many that make me look stupid. There is NO WAY you or me will ever be able to test as much as many other people. ( don't feel bad I don't ride that much anymore either. )

Now, we can stop right here or we can go on with this banttering. ( I think the people would rather get their questions answered ) about forged verses cast pistons and why I use what i use.


Dan
 
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Thanks for keeping this thread open their is some interesting reading here .
I just pass over the non informative ones...........IMO any kit you choose will be better than stock I would have no problem running RKT kit....Keep up the great work guys .It is always a great day of riding when you make it back under your own power.

Yes...have beers guys, and keep up this discussion, but keep it non-personal as tough as that may be. Great info for us who don't know all this, maybe even Polaris???

Thanks Mountainhorse, hopefully it will get better.:focus:
 
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Stick to the TOPIC!!!!!!!

Yes...have beers guys, and keep up this discussion, but keep it non-personal as tough as that may be. Great info for us who don't know all this, maybe even Polaris???

Thanks Mountainhorse, hopefully it will get better.:focus:

would be alot better for everyone if they just stick to the topic and knock off the name calling~ good info in here but the name calling really needs to stop~
 
Oh crap, now Im really confused. One thing that stands out in my mind, when I am riding way back in the alpine, reliability is a big deal. As both these systems seem to provide longer life span to the polaris motor, then you are going to be ahead of the game either way.
 
would be alot better for everyone if they just stick to the topic and knock off the name calling~ good info in here but the name calling really needs to stop~

801 - I'm all over the topic ( I just had to get back to a level playing field.).

If I didn't address all these angles people would believe Kelsey knew what he was talking about.....The video will show even more of the facts and will also prove Kelsey is just out to push his product and slam mine.

For the most part I stay away from SW........But when people call me and tell me that PAR or RKT is at it again it forces me to defend.


Trust me I do not enjoy this.....I enjoy working on motors. PERIOD.

Thanks for puttin up with all this BS everyone.

Dan
 
Kelsey there so many things your incorrect about I do not know where to start or stop.


Heres a few pictures to show you where the off set is.......... You say its not there.

all cases from 2008 thru 2012 are exactly the same in relation to crankshaft centerline except the 2013

Kelsey I see you have countless other stupid questions....I will address all of them and maybe it will stop you from jumping on threads spewing your theroies instead of facts.


PS - Kelsey..... ( I have better things to do then teach you things about Polaris motors )

You are so hung up on facts about the Polaris small block you should first make sure you know something about them before you mouth off.

Just under 2mm of Off set and you just put it up in print that i am wrong......and their is not an off set ? Remember you have both motors on the bench ?

I was out of town all week-end and I figured you would hang yourslef out to dry if I left you alone long enough.

Don't you drive a ski doo ??

Hey Dan..

Tell ya what... Take the case top of EITHER the 2012 or 2013 case half youhave inthe pics (I will also attach) now, machine or file... say .050" more at the boost port (where you have the caliper placed) or add .050" to the reed gasket area...
OK.. now.. your harbor freight caliper number will surely be different by .050"..
So.. Did the crank offset change again due to your mod??

few questions you missed: Since they are technical related and engine related, you should have no problem answering them..

1) Where is your connecting rod manufactured?
2)Why does this engine need a long rod conversion? Data to support this?
3)How much test time do you have on your connecting rod you offer in your 800SB long rod conversion kit??
4) So you are telling us that your caliper picture is confirming a 2mm crank offset? Correct??

Thanks

indy1 big.jpg indy-2big.jpg
 
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Just an old guy with a ruler and a metwrench kit here but it's a lot easier for me to warranty an engine that I or my men put together than it is to warranty some parts I ship out for someone else to put together. I have no control nor knowledge of their abilities. Just saying
 
The gussets did not effect performance., and because I want MAXIMUM dependability.
If there wasn't a rod ratio problem Polaris would have NEVER re-tooled a complete new cylinder & crankcase for 2013. NEVER !

You can mark my work the 2013 motors will last WAY longer then the 08,09,10,11,12 motors with the exact same piston.

Its plain and simple..... its not a piston problem. ( Pistons are a patch )

To much clearance with a short rod. ( Bad combination. )



I havent heard of many( or any) 2013 motor problems. There is another thread in this section that seems to confim that. You might be on to something Dan!
 
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WOW

All I have to say is WOW! Hey I take offense to the Harbor Freight comment! That is half my stuff I lend or use on my friends stuff! I only use SnapOn on my stuff! Makes me feel more impotent or important WHATEVER!!! Ding Ding! El Toro! Lets Go Racing Boys! I better pull these glasses off before someone gets hurt!
 
leeroymercer_cartoon.jpg
 
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