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Better Boards (enhance traction, strength, and ease in snow removal)

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I don't know about everyone else but I don't like this idea. I'd much rather have a one piece brace/better board, I don't think slapping a better board on top of my factory brace will fit/look good. I also don't see how this would be any stronger/better than just cutting out the holes around my existing brace myself and save my $150(plus shipping). I would much rather spend an hour or two drilling rivets and doing a thorough install than half *** it and end up with a finished product that doesn't live up to expectations.

If you decide to continue with this route for the production run please cancel my order, this is not the product I thought I was purchasing and I won't be happy with it.

As another purchaser, I agree. Well said.

I'm with the above two^^

I think our gravitation towards purchasing the Better Boards was the fact that they were an open window design with an integrated "fishbone" support. If you look at the above post by Verticaledge69 and the pics of his Gen2, that's what we were looking for. Not a secondary floorboard placed on top of the factory support. Rox tried that with their traction boards which were far from appealing.

SK.
 
I see what these guys are saying and I agree. I can see the issue from both sides. 1) Harder install but a better finished product in the end. or 2) Easier install, less design time, etc. But I don't think the #2 is going to evacuate snow as good as we'd like, maybe I'm wrong I don't know. If I was at home I'd look at my Pro-X a little and brainstorm this.
 
Alan, your buggy is looking good! I hope you like the ride as good as the look. Cheers Rob
 
WOW OK gang...do to the overwhelming disastisfaction of the design plan and just the general conflict I've decided to pull the plug on the PRO X and Racer Chassis designs. I wish I could have that twelve hours of computer time, draft measuring, and drive time to the prototypes back! I could have used that valuable time to fill the other 30 orders that got delayed by this project.

YOUR CARDS WILL NOT BE CHARGED and I apologize for the hassle. I will dig through all of these orders and notify each of you personally. argh

Rich E with the money order that I received today will be tranfered back into your name and returned.

PHAZER Fans you are still a go...mostly since it's done (all sales are final!) he he he sort of
 
WOW OK gang...do to the overwhelming disastisfaction of the design plan and just the general conflict I've decided to pull the plug on the PRO X and Racer Chassis designs. I wish I could have that twelve hours of computer time, draft measuring, and drive time to the prototypes back!

You mean disastifaction with the CHANGED design plan. Everyone was happy with the original one, I get the feeling you decided it was too much work/money to follow through on your promise. Hence the "plan b" and resulting conflict. What would it take to get 'plan a' back online?
 
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F-bomb, my heart sank.. with that post...
but thank you for keeping on with the phazers, i'm going to PM you
with another guys name who is interested, hopefully he got ahold of you.

Thanks again, for allowing the low production/interest folks a chance to get on the F-Bomb boat.
 
That's too bad that this was abandoned. I'm a long time member on HCS and I joined so that I could read and respond on this topic. Count me as another customer lost as I was planning on calling you tomorrow(today) to place and order until I heard the news.

I hope you do reconsider doing these again as I think there is a bigger market for them than you think(you need a little advertising and customer testimonials). Maybe over the summer when you are less busy you can design a set or something. Just throwing this out there.

Also, I understand you are frustrated that people are backing out but realize it is because of the design changes. There is no reason to backlash at us and say we wasted your time because you decided to change it. Your original product cut to fit prox running boards that somewhat resembles the prox fishbone design on the tunnel would be one sweet product.
 
Rob,

I can understand your reasons for wanting to change the design so that the stock fishbones would be left in place. It would be much easier for us, the consumer to install and for you to design/fabricate I imagine. There is no doubt that those blind rivets will be a bit of a PITA. Maybe some of the consumers are not aware of this? I think some of us got a little carried away with our replies after you said that the fishbones would not be incorporated into the design. No matter what happens, our running boards are the same as they were before the design was started and we haven't lost anything. I can understand if you feel somewhat disappointed in the replies after you have put time, money and work into the project. I am disappointed that the Better Boards won't be offered but I am by no means upset. I hope we can still somehow compromise on a design and make it happen as I would love to have a set for my sled. I agree with what ESFR Pro XR rider said, I think there is a larger market than most realize for this sled, some are probably just reluctant to order a set until they have been tried by others with positive results.

If you decide to not make the Pro-X Better Boards w/fishbones supports, I would be interested in buying a set of flat stock sets made for a Pro-X if you have any made already. I'm just looking for traction and snow elimination mainly. Anything is better than stock traction and snow elimination(or lack of) in stock form.
 
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I also signed up just to reply to this after finding about about them on HCS; I was about to call and make an order for 2 sets, and was thinking for ordering a few more to put on ebay. I have a set of the discontinued ROX treads and they suck. I fully agree with all the above statements. You changed design at the last second. If your worried about the rivets just make it a no returns sorta deal. Let us people who love to mod deal with it. I loved the idea of replacing the fishbones b/c one of my sleds has loose "bones" and the suspention holes are slightly cracked and wollowed.

I think you seriously underestimated the market for these treads and your gonna get too backed up without more employees and more tooling. If thats the case I'm sure some of us can wait can wait till next fall. Do the right thing man!
 
I got a PM back from Fbomb answering a few of my questions, basically it comes down to money, not greed but just common business sense. Currently better boards come with a 90 degree bend, not a rolled corner like our stock fishbone brace, to change that would make this already financially risky project unfeasible. Also the install time/effort required to remove the blind rivets is a concern, if anyone had trouble with it and badmouthed Robs product because of their lack of mechanical skills it would hurt sales for all lines of better boards, not just the small Pro X market.

I'm still hoping for a summer production if enough people express interest, but it's Fbombs call since he would still be doing this project more as a favor to us than as a way to make money.
 
People the matter at hand is not an issue of anyone backing out. I pulled the plug on this very limited non profitable and potentially negative project because I have a highly successful aftermarket parts business with a known successful product line that works and has proven to sell. The posted responses make it clear that the risk associated with these two models is much higher then any benefit that they will ever provide. Especially as it was a non profit time consuming favor since things are going so well for our company.

Manufacturing business lesson to help enlighten everyone:
If this was a situation of a viable production run model then we would do it conventionally were we design, prototype, install, test (normally redesign, reprototype, re-install, retest) and then then manufacture for marketing. Not only do you require the facility and ability to do this but you also require a risk free donor sled for each sample. You the consumer can research the results of this process and then make your purchasing decision. Because of the fact that these two products are so limited this was a situation where you consumers were going to have to trust my experience in design and obviously many do not. I extensively researched this and the facts are that we don't feel like it is viable even in a perfect state of design and function. Unfortunately experience warns me that this is not the situation either marketing or by design. If there is a failure in anyone of those areas it is wise to not be involved.

These two designs have inherent issues that prohibit production in the form that you people are expecting. Please remember that I've personally performed the expensive and exhausting process of design, installation, and testing nine seperate individual products that I have sold over a thousand units on this season alone. We have install and ride time with hundreds of hours invested in testing. Having personally done all of that work {remember I designed them, install them, and USE them daily} I can see issues with the process on these two models that prohibit bringing them on line in the fashion that you people are expecting. Furthermore I am not going to risk my business or my reputation putting out a product that has this many potential pitfalls for either function of installation. Because of the design factory wishbone support (rolling structural support) and the use of multiple blind expanding rivets we cannot functionally produce a product that can be installed without sacreficing strength of the running board and integrity of the existing tunnel, while performing the expected benefit of added traction and ease of snow removal over the existing factory running board.

I am by no means being a smart elic here guys. I welcome any one or all of you to step up and get involved if you feel it would be viable.

If one entity will make a minimum order of 30 units, prepaid, and shipped to one location I'll manage production, packaging, and delivery for you. Our experience shows 30 units at 34% NET/NET profit is the front end break even point on any one design. Keep in mind that is with our in place brand and marketing tools so your experience might vary wildly (just ask the other five or six entities that are attempting to compete with similar products). It would be your design with your exact specifications, THAT YOU WOULD PROVIDE ME WITH, and you would own the exclusive rights to that design. You get the advantage of my manufacturing experience as well as the use of our facilities. This is not a group buy this is YOUR own product and you assume totally the potential risks involved herein.

Also note that if you would like to buy my very successful company lock stock and barrel I would enjoy nothing more then going back to being paid to ride your products. I can also have more fun picking on dumb people like the good old days of snowest. This being handcuffed with politically correct-ed-ness all of the time is nearly killing me!

Standard price for US manufacturing and service industries of 10 times earnings. Let's make a deal!
 
Well, I just walked out in the rain and stared at my sled for 20 minutes. For some reason this topic just concerns me and I can't let it go. Couple statements/questions I have:

1. Why does it have to be a rolled edge and not a more 90* edge like the original better boards design? If you extend it a little higher like the stock fisbones won't it be basically as strong? If not, can't slighty thicker aluminum be used? Also, what is so hard about making a rolled edge? Does that require a different type of press besides one that just make 90* angles?

2. Getting the rivets out. Wouldn't a good bit and some good oil for lubrication and some patience get the job done? I don't care if it takes me a couple hours to install it because I'll be spending way more hours riding it. Am I just ignorant as to how hard these may be to get out?

3. If the fishbone extends all the way down along with the betterboard from the rear torque arm bolt to the footwell won't that be stronger than stock?

4. I am basically broke as I am 19 and in college with no job but if I had the money I would take the chance with the 30 orders(easy to say I know as I'm not doing it but I really think I would give it a shot).

5. I'm just stumped as to why this won't work. I understand the reasons you're telling us but for some reason I just see those as things that can be worked through.

6. Maybe if you get some extra time this summer you can mess around and try to figure something out. Then you will have some more business in the fall from the pro-x'ers

F-Bomb if I am dumb please just tell me. Since I asked, you can be politically correct and still call me stupid.

End of rant/complaining(I just want this product on my sled)
 
I did not see your post as a rant. It was well thought out and inquisitive. Not knowing the facts and wanting to learn is not at all stupid. Stupid is when you have the information but refuse to listen and understand those facts. I thank you for your questions and comments because it will eventually help people understand the task at hand. It will also help consumers become more informed and that makes them more valuable to my business in the long haul.

To answer some of your questions and hopefully help build a better understanding of the process.

The wishbone press bend vs rolled angle bend

The existing wishbone with the rolled angle is substantially stronger then the 84* crease bend that we have the ability to do when incorporating the wishbone to the cleated traction and snow removing areas. It essentially narrows the width of the board to equal four times the weight distribution which equals significant structural strength value. We have a $150,000 computerized brake that handles the cleats and any up tunnel supports we add to designs when they require or accomodate them. We don't have a computerized rolling bender so that is one major issue. I can build rolled angle dies for the process but it is extremely expensive. The strength or limitation of the flex of your boards is far more dependant on the rolled angle then it is on the height of the wishbone on the tunnel. The rolled angle is redistributing the force over a 20 time larger surface (leverage at 3.5 mm width vs 36mm). The other solution would then be to use a thicker gauge of stock per your question. To maintain the same structural integrity we are guessing at almost double the thickness and that is conservative. (the only way you could know for certain is a stress test and limited funds and potential return bancrupt that plan) Adds too much weight and cost. The third solution is an insert beam tying the angles together. Expensive labor intensive add on and once again without adequate testing we wouldn't know how to best place it to equal existing strength. We continue to be handicapped in this issue by demand and simple business accounting.

OK next issue to resolve and a much stronger detrimental factor then the rolling bend is as follows:

The blind expanding rivet. The reason those are used from the factory is the fact that this a high force and flex area. Normal rivets irregardless of tensil strength will wow, wobble, and loosen in this application. I'm not opposed to using them with our product because the conventional rivets are simple and cheap to replace if that happens. But Polaris can't afford to have this take place on a factory stock product. Those babies on designed to be permanant! Blind expanders are cheaper and better for the application then weld or glue affiction. So we have the battle of getting them out when they didn't mean for you to do that in any easy fashion. Once you do get them out you leave a bowed hole almost two times diameter of the normal rivets that I use. That is in a best case scenerio. Some times they require driving once you've removed the backs and that causes wowing of the entire area around the rivet. The net result is the swiss cheese affect on your tunnel. Once again if I sell you a product that actually weakens the whole then we have gone backwards in our design goal.

You cannot get an aftermarket product put out with matched factory holes for any reasonable cost. Especially after they have been ridden so that the fit is not uniform. You guys would then have to redrill new holes and hopefully miss all of the factory spaces completely to get a good solid connection. There are a bunch of those blind rivets and the chances of a screw up are very high and probably multiple screw ups.

So once again we keep running into weakened tunnel, inability to maintain factory strength if the wishbone is removed, and difficulty of the install to a level far greater then most garage mechanics are prepared for puts even more challenges into this project. All sacrefices to get traction and easier snow removal. That is why I determined that the design needed to be as stated. Design is a delicate balance of function, benefit, and cost (cost meaning negatives or sacrefices not necessarily money) in an effort to resolve a problem. Having a viable design still doesn't warrant a manufacturing process because we then have to factor in economics. Remember that we have to accomplish our design goals and keep this project around $150.

All of those issues build up to make this a no go in the form that several of you guys are requesting. I won't be building these in that fashion irregardless of time, energy, or money. Keep your eyes out because braver pioneers have agreed and are going before you now. What I build will work, look to be the same quality standard that my brand represents, be universally installable, maintain a minimum of the factory strength standard, and be financially feasable. Wether or not I make that available to the general public is yet to be determined. Watch and see if a set of these doesn't make the podium at Jackson this year on a Polaris Racer Chassis. Any bets? I'll be pretty hard to deal with then!!!!!!!!!
 
Got the Phazer boards today... they look good.(that was FAST)

Now all I have to do is chisle the ice off my boards from this past weekend.. ;)

hope to have some pictures soon.
 
Very good! The new phazers all went out so it will be interesting to see how much they improve that system. Very special order limited run Polaris RACER Chassis is last to go. I'm really interested to see how that one turns out. Could get a bit held up as I've got to go riding for a few days then a couple back and then two straight weeks of product testing! THE FRUITS OF OUR LABORS so to speak.

Hey we just automated delivery and inventory control a couple days ago and the last forty orders seem to have gone perfectly smoothly. That is great news so now I can focus on testing. We also have an online shopping cart coming up next week. That will make it even easier for guys to buy BETTER BOARDS. Hopefully that transition will be as smooth as our new automated packaging, inventory, and shipping system.

Thanks for the excellent support everyone! Rob
 
WOW OK gang...do to the overwhelming disastisfaction of the design plan and just the general conflict I've decided to pull the plug on the PRO X and Racer Chassis designs. I wish I could have that twelve hours of computer time, draft measuring, and drive time to the prototypes back! I could have used that valuable time to fill the other 30 orders that got delayed by this project.

YOUR CARDS WILL NOT BE CHARGED and I apologize for the hassle. I will dig through all of these orders and notify each of you personally. argh

Rich E with the money order that I received today will be tranfered back into your name and returned.

PHAZER Fans you are still a go...mostly since it's done (all sales are final!) he he he sort of

Rob, WTF??!! On the 9th when we talked you told me that you'd get my money order right back to me. Well............ in case you haven't noticed it's the 24th, over 2 weeks later. When I called you on Tuesday you told me that you would have to call me back and you had to check to see if "she" had sent the mo back. You still haven't called and I'm still waiting!

Rich
 
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We are just in from a break in our EUROPEAN CUSTOMER APPRECIATION DAYS. Average over 4ft of champagne powder. Can't hardly even go and getting up what used to be a groomed trail is next to impossible even with turbo apex and some really nice mountain sleds. Three of our eight have Better Boards...those three have been very happy.

The others will have them when I get back from this trip and fill their orders.

Proof in the head to head comparison. One of our guests from Norway (good rider) has fallen off his IQ RAW RMK multiple times due to the board build up (sometimes its been in very very tricky spots!). Mine are awesome and I absolutely love this mod! Everyday in the deep snow proves this to be the number one mod you can do to a real deep powder riding mountain sled. Feet stick to your running boards even when there is massive buildup. A couple of stomps or quick easy foot grate after you stop and you are good to go again.

Rich...your US Post office money order was returned.

Racer Chassis custom prototypes are being worked on but it's slow going. We are doing some mock ups and it's a back and forth time consuming process. To expensive to screw up. I'm now on a 12 sled trip so that contributes to the delay. Sorry about the delays but time ran out on us before this big event. I'll be back to the shop next week and we will get those tested and finished for production. PRO X guys got wamboozled by outspoken people that have no idea what they are talking about...sorry to those that got affected by them.
 
yep shipping daily plain aluminum or black powder coated...call for info
or credit card ordering Rob 1-208-724-6677 or order directly on our website with Paypal or CC.
 
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