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dieselpower
Well-known member
I can get 4 or 5 guys and am happy to put down $500.
Bear Paw- INFO
- Thread starter NWGC
- Start date
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paulharris
Well-known member
The FS is inundated with hundreds of lawsuits- how far do you think your $100 will get you in a federal government lawsuit? I'd guess about 30 seconds. You need millions to play this game- hundreds will be laughed at and pissed away in the blink of an eye. might as well toss your $100 bill out the window of your car. All the things you mentioned have a proven record of failure, falling on deaf ears and being ignored by the FS. If you read the previous posts you would see that the FS would be notified of the work party to open the road thus forcing dialogue. Hey guys, there are all the reasons in the world not to act. Excuses, blah blah. The question becomes will you stand up for your right to access your public lands or will you let them take it away right under your nose? Will you sit behind the keyboard or get in the truck and take a meaningful stand? It really is amazing the lack of fight in snowmobilers. Status quo=bearpaw is gone forever. If your ok with that than so be it. Oh and SAWS is history because of this exact reason- no one will get involved. The comments and meetings and threats of legal action and BS never work and will not work- will you dare to try something different? Broken record.....action or Keyboard warrior?
Money
$100 to $500 times 100 people is an expected $25,000. That would definitely make filing suit in Whatcom county a reality. Maybe there is a lawyer who rides the area or somebody knows one? I am not an attorney. I am also not here to debate this into a circus show. We as a group can be constructive and form a way to a solution. Trust me, I have seen the negative side and understand the risks. Making the government follow the law is not fun, however in this case, may be necessary.
$100 to $500 times 100 people is an expected $25,000. That would definitely make filing suit in Whatcom county a reality. Maybe there is a lawyer who rides the area or somebody knows one? I am not an attorney. I am also not here to debate this into a circus show. We as a group can be constructive and form a way to a solution. Trust me, I have seen the negative side and understand the risks. Making the government follow the law is not fun, however in this case, may be necessary.
I have found out more info and as soon as I can figure out how to post it on here I will for everyone. After talking to Doug Huddle and reading the plan I am not in support of moving the barricades. Canyon Creek will be opened back up. Bear paw will be left alone.(3160) The bad news is from what I can tell the road that goes to Grosse Bute will be gated off. The Indians and the forest service will have access.
It seems the forest service acknowledged the Nepa study that was done on Whistler creek 20 years ago and signed by John Vander Hagen. This states that the area is best used for winter recreation in particular snowmobiling. They were also presented with a mou between the forest service and the Whatcom county snowmobile club for the club to do maintenance and brushing within the road corridor.
I am trying to find any pics that were taken from any of the projects we did in the past. (Whistler creek, y parking lot, main campground expansion,) I also have to find exact dates we did these projects so that we can request documentation from the forest service. This will prove from there own records that we have done maintenance on the road in the past. Right now they don't acknowledge that we have done any work.
If we move the barricades we are not gaining anything. If you have been involved at all you know they already know that we don't agree.
It seems the forest service acknowledged the Nepa study that was done on Whistler creek 20 years ago and signed by John Vander Hagen. This states that the area is best used for winter recreation in particular snowmobiling. They were also presented with a mou between the forest service and the Whatcom county snowmobile club for the club to do maintenance and brushing within the road corridor.
I am trying to find any pics that were taken from any of the projects we did in the past. (Whistler creek, y parking lot, main campground expansion,) I also have to find exact dates we did these projects so that we can request documentation from the forest service. This will prove from there own records that we have done maintenance on the road in the past. Right now they don't acknowledge that we have done any work.
If we move the barricades we are not gaining anything. If you have been involved at all you know they already know that we don't agree.
She still has 3170 ( lower bear paw spur) slated for closure. But in another paragraph she states the no roads leading to a existing trail head will be closed. Which 3170 has a trail head.
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Since I can't get the email to link on here if you send me your email I will forward the forest service plan and response to the meeting from Everett.
Also Erin has not signed the atm yet. She has gone on vacation for the next few weeks so it obviously won't be till after that and once she does sign it I believe it's 60 days before they can do any action. Also at that point the group Citizens for Forest roads is going to file a suit against the forest service. I believe the main point is because the forest service wants to gate certain roads and grant permission to only Indians. They believe just like us that not just a special group should have rights to an area.
Also Erin has not signed the atm yet. She has gone on vacation for the next few weeks so it obviously won't be till after that and once she does sign it I believe it's 60 days before they can do any action. Also at that point the group Citizens for Forest roads is going to file a suit against the forest service. I believe the main point is because the forest service wants to gate certain roads and grant permission to only Indians. They believe just like us that not just a special group should have rights to an area.
W
WINJE
Member
See if it works...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3pKmkiMfFWYY2Q0LWNNaVNfNXllNThyWXpOZTJQMWNBZXU4/view?usp=drivesdk
Let me know if it works guys... this is what Conrad aka chicken is talking about.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3pKmkiMfFWYMDM2SnZUMjRkTmwzaGcycy1JaS16eXY3RzBR/view?usp=drivesdk
And here is the cover letter
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3pKmkiMfFWYY2Q0LWNNaVNfNXllNThyWXpOZTJQMWNBZXU4/view?usp=drivesdk
Let me know if it works guys... this is what Conrad aka chicken is talking about.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3pKmkiMfFWYMDM2SnZUMjRkTmwzaGcycy1JaS16eXY3RzBR/view?usp=drivesdk
And here is the cover letter
Thanks Conrad for sharing some factual info. Mass respect to you and your family for pioneering this zone! Obviously this is a complicated issue we are all very passionate about but with the current travel management plan and new FS personnel it is a delicate situation.
Just a few things that I feel should be clarified:
Under the new travel management plan Canyon Creek Road is to receive a higher degree of maintenance than it ever has in the past. Part of the FS budget compromise is to close some dead end spur roads that don't see much traffic to focus limited funds on certain key access roads like Canyon Creek Road. This is not Erin just "saying one thing and doing another" but an official published document. While we know that the FS has a record of saying one thing and then closing roads later my opinion is that if/when the new travel management plan is adopted it will not really be possible to go back on in.
At the meeting in Everett Erin announced that the 3160 will not be closed. I understand that she had an updated map confirming this. I have not seen it personally but if that updated map is filed with the official travel management plan as stated above it would be very hard if not impossible to come back and just close it.
There have already been some lawyers retained to review certain actions by the FS with formal letters sent out. We don't know yet what the end result of the travel plan will be so lets at least wait for the final answer.
The Whatcom County Snowmobile Club recently approved a motion to formally adopt the 3160 and maintain it. There is a similar agreement that has been in place for a long time but we are trying to reaffirm our desire to take responsibility for maintaining this section of road.
The club has also already organized an official work party that we completed this fall. We had formal permission from the FS and over 20 people showed up and myself and three other operators brought mini excavators. We cleared ditches, culverts, and tree/debris from the washout to the top of all roads. I see this as a major first step forward in gaining respect from the FS and hopefully opening up the possibility of letting us do more work in the future. This is the kind of work party we need to be organizing not ripping out the barricade. Please if you want to donate time and equipment help us focus it on maintenance efforts. We started a new Road Maintenance Committee this year to try and organize such efforts so feel free to contact me if interested.
Citizens for Forest Roads has inventoried and mapped out the entire Canyon Creek Road and prioritized the exact sections and culverts that need the most immediate work. The contractor that was hired by the FS to go up there used this information to focus his work on the areas that needed it the most. I therefore believe this could possibly be one of the most efficient uses of time and FS $ ever in Whatcom County as far as a maintenance contract goes.
The timing of when the barricade went in this fall is easy to see as a targeted effort to keep sleds out. Especially after other user groups were allowed in the area all summer without getting tickets. Hopefully everyone understands that the barricade was installed because there is a washout in the road. Yes there is a perfectly fine route to drive around it on the shoulder but there are other factors at play and from a technical standpoint and view of the FS engineers the wet season is when the washout becomes destabilized and at higher risk of ongoing slope failure. The washout was caused by drainage and groundwater issues during large rain and rain on snow events during the winter and our area has a greatly increased risk of landslides during this time. Yes its unfortunate that sledding season overlaps with landslide season but there is more to the timing of when the barricade went up than just locking sledders out.
We also have reliable info that funding has been secured to fix the road this next summer. Again, under the new plan Canyon Creek is now a higher priority to keep maintained.
I understand that FS engineers wanted to close the road at the highway because the rocks were moved last year. Erin decided to override that decision and place the barricade as close to the washout as possible to allow access if snow levels permit. It would certainly sour our new relationship with local FS if the barricade is removed. We have also been told the road will be closed at the highway and formally closed to snowmobiling if the barricade is moved. We should at least give them chance to keep their promises because right now, as far as actions go, they seem to be living up to their end of the deal. Doesn't mean I trust them anymore than the rest of you but we have no actual examples yet of them going back on their word.
If the road does actually remain closed I agree 110% its time to take actions into our own hands. However given the current delicate balance with the FS the ball is in our court to act responsibly and not give them ammo to use agains our user group. It would certainly undermine the efforts and any progress made this fall by the local snowmobile club. Its hard to pass up a pow day in the short term especially given the poor snow years the past few season but I would like to see a more sustainable long term access secured.
Thanks, Ryan
Just a few things that I feel should be clarified:
Under the new travel management plan Canyon Creek Road is to receive a higher degree of maintenance than it ever has in the past. Part of the FS budget compromise is to close some dead end spur roads that don't see much traffic to focus limited funds on certain key access roads like Canyon Creek Road. This is not Erin just "saying one thing and doing another" but an official published document. While we know that the FS has a record of saying one thing and then closing roads later my opinion is that if/when the new travel management plan is adopted it will not really be possible to go back on in.
At the meeting in Everett Erin announced that the 3160 will not be closed. I understand that she had an updated map confirming this. I have not seen it personally but if that updated map is filed with the official travel management plan as stated above it would be very hard if not impossible to come back and just close it.
There have already been some lawyers retained to review certain actions by the FS with formal letters sent out. We don't know yet what the end result of the travel plan will be so lets at least wait for the final answer.
The Whatcom County Snowmobile Club recently approved a motion to formally adopt the 3160 and maintain it. There is a similar agreement that has been in place for a long time but we are trying to reaffirm our desire to take responsibility for maintaining this section of road.
The club has also already organized an official work party that we completed this fall. We had formal permission from the FS and over 20 people showed up and myself and three other operators brought mini excavators. We cleared ditches, culverts, and tree/debris from the washout to the top of all roads. I see this as a major first step forward in gaining respect from the FS and hopefully opening up the possibility of letting us do more work in the future. This is the kind of work party we need to be organizing not ripping out the barricade. Please if you want to donate time and equipment help us focus it on maintenance efforts. We started a new Road Maintenance Committee this year to try and organize such efforts so feel free to contact me if interested.
Citizens for Forest Roads has inventoried and mapped out the entire Canyon Creek Road and prioritized the exact sections and culverts that need the most immediate work. The contractor that was hired by the FS to go up there used this information to focus his work on the areas that needed it the most. I therefore believe this could possibly be one of the most efficient uses of time and FS $ ever in Whatcom County as far as a maintenance contract goes.
The timing of when the barricade went in this fall is easy to see as a targeted effort to keep sleds out. Especially after other user groups were allowed in the area all summer without getting tickets. Hopefully everyone understands that the barricade was installed because there is a washout in the road. Yes there is a perfectly fine route to drive around it on the shoulder but there are other factors at play and from a technical standpoint and view of the FS engineers the wet season is when the washout becomes destabilized and at higher risk of ongoing slope failure. The washout was caused by drainage and groundwater issues during large rain and rain on snow events during the winter and our area has a greatly increased risk of landslides during this time. Yes its unfortunate that sledding season overlaps with landslide season but there is more to the timing of when the barricade went up than just locking sledders out.
We also have reliable info that funding has been secured to fix the road this next summer. Again, under the new plan Canyon Creek is now a higher priority to keep maintained.
I understand that FS engineers wanted to close the road at the highway because the rocks were moved last year. Erin decided to override that decision and place the barricade as close to the washout as possible to allow access if snow levels permit. It would certainly sour our new relationship with local FS if the barricade is removed. We have also been told the road will be closed at the highway and formally closed to snowmobiling if the barricade is moved. We should at least give them chance to keep their promises because right now, as far as actions go, they seem to be living up to their end of the deal. Doesn't mean I trust them anymore than the rest of you but we have no actual examples yet of them going back on their word.
If the road does actually remain closed I agree 110% its time to take actions into our own hands. However given the current delicate balance with the FS the ball is in our court to act responsibly and not give them ammo to use agains our user group. It would certainly undermine the efforts and any progress made this fall by the local snowmobile club. Its hard to pass up a pow day in the short term especially given the poor snow years the past few season but I would like to see a more sustainable long term access secured.
Thanks, Ryan
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Yeah I agree. That's why my last post before you put this on here I said I didn't agree with moving the barricades.
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