Still great!

[BeartoothBaron]

Well, I'm just a neo-luddite sledder, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. If you feel like you need more, it's probably best you stop reading and move on with your life.

Anyway, the Pro blew a piston, pushing me to my "backup" sled, the old 600 RMK. It started life as an '02 136, and eventually got upgraded to a 144 series IV with Vertical Escape shocks, SLP can and Powder Pro skis, Holzman ATAAC, Boyesen reeds, gear down (18/43 gearing), two-wheel kit, seat upgrade, SLP helix, sway bar delete, and a few other things I've forgotten about over the years. Anyway, in '20 I bought the Pro ('12 800/163), and until now only rode the old EDGE once since then. For some reason (maybe old gas), it didn't seem to run quite right, and then I bent a trailing arm, so not a great day. Anyway, the Pro decided to remind me of what Polarises of recent years like to do, so I'm waiting on a monoblock and cylinders, but not going to sit around until I get that going again. So I dug out the spare trailing arm, pulled the carbs and cleaned them, greased the skid and front suspension, drained the old gas (that actually seemed pretty fresh), and tweaked the carb and oil pump adjustments. I think I have a fuel leak: the gas tank only had a few gallons in it, although I'm pretty sure I filled it up before I parked it...

I headed up to Buck Creek yesterday. Tons of people up there, but I didn't see anything remotely as old as my sled all day. The conditions were around six inches of fairly fresh snow on a pretty firm base, so not great by any means, but for better or worse, pretty average for what I've seen the last couple years. You always wonder when you haven't run something in a while, how it'll work. Well, if it's run better, I can't remember when. Never so much as a burble or hiccup. I sort of forgot how much better it is on the trail than the Pro, but what's really surprising is that I never really missed the Pro. I could tell the difference, even putting aside the power and track disadvantage, in how it acts on edge, how it tended to grab the random rut or such when I was climbing. But I got around just fine, and despite taking a firm move to get on edge, I could hold a decent sidehill (even besting my equally-capable friend on his new Summit at one point).

Of course things would have been different in a bunch of powder, although more would have made a big difference on the old sled too. Really, I noticed how much more I needed to keep the track spinning compared the Pro, especially uphill or on edge, than the amount of effort to get and stay on edge. But, dare I say, I had more fun than I would have had on the Pro. It makes me wonder if I should have left the Pro home more often over the last couple years. Don't get me wrong: on a great snow day, the Pro is better and more fun. On the sort of snow I've seen more of, however, the old EDGE holds its own. And the Pro is coming up on, what, at least its third motor, effectively? I don't know how many motors it's had; both odometers read just under 5000 miles, but the Pro has seen at least one completely redone motor (Indy Specialties long rod motor) and is now getting another top end. I don't think the old 600 has even been redone. I bought it in '09, the PO didn't say anything about a new motor, and I haven't seen any evidence that it's ever been apart. Even if it had work done, I put half the miles it has on it, and never opened up the motor. Everything still checks out almost like new.

My improvements over a bog standard sled probably made some of the difference, but it's not like I spent a ton of money to get there. Find a blown Vertical Escape parts sled, and you're halfway there. So many people look at the EDGE chassis and think "eww, trailing arms," and dismiss them as old junk. But I'd take one over the 900 and Dragon problem children any day. A Vertical Escape would probably hang with a 900 or any iQ without breaking a sweat. It would probably take a little more work on the rider, sort of a really well-modified sled, but it wasn't until the Pro that they were really outclassed. And then, Polaris should never have taken the brilliant 600 VES and tried to stretch it into an 800. That's probably part of the reason my Pro is in pieces right now and I'm spending more than I've ever spent on a sled, outside the initial purchase price. Sure, the 800 VES had its issues too, but there are probably more of them running around on all-original internals than the 800 CFI. And when you're talking about the 600 VES, well, when I got mine I barely knew how a two-stroke operated, but it's still going strong. There are things you can nitpick on the EDGE: a few "what were they thinking" spots where you wish you had a go-go-gadget wrench and perimeter cooling that's like a slush magnet in real snow for a couple. But at the end of the day, my "old" sled isn't "better than nothing" or even "decent," "good," or "great backup sled," it's just a great sled. I'm not sure my next sled will be a Polaris, but I can say this: Long live the EDGE!

 

[summ8rmk]

Edge good sled.....

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

 

[mt.sledder]

I had a 2002 800 vertical edge. Loved that sled.

 

[sno*jet]

I think before caleb K. got so big, I remember a few vids when he bought an old edge 700 to get by on, and boy he pushed that thing into areas it wasnt designed for. The big blocks were rippers but cheaply made imo. I was always a fan of the smaller 600 mono when it came out. Polaris obviously thought it was a better design too.
thats some really low gears you are rockin, must be that slp helix...

 

[BeartoothBaron]

Yup, I'd agree on the big blocks. I hear a lot of good things (my only experience is tearing one down for parts), but also, a lot of them went down early because of poor assembly, balance, and such. They can be built into a bulletproof, not to mention more powerful motor. I'll have to dig up those videos; people don't realize these sleds will go places, but will make you work hard for it in difficult terrain. The 600 was, to my mind, the big performer of the lot. The 700 gave you more grunt, and was just as reliable (typically), but gained you a lot of weight. The 800 was the clear winner in raw power-weight, but still heavier, and a lot more issues.

I'm still not exactly where I want to be on clutching. I'm pretty happy with how it gets up and goes from a stop, but it's showing 8300 or so wide open, and it feels like it plateaus pretty quickly once you get moving. I could try going back to the 19t, but I don't feel like it's shifted all the way out, and the clutches don't look that way either. I need to calibrate the tach, just to make sure of where I'm at. I think in part, I should probably be running a 34 degree finish angle, vs 32. I'll probably keep an eye out for an R8 helix. The R32 that was originally in it worked well on the top end, but would overrev in the midrange (apparently they're a very short progressive setup - more biased to trail riding). I think I see here what people say about heavily geared down sleds - that they're more sensitive to clutching changes. I decided to swap the SLP weights into the Pro because that needs a bit more weight, so I'm running 61g weights in it at the moment. The one other thing is that the back-shift is poor by comparison. I might swap to a TEAM clutch and keep tweaking on it, but it's working great right now. I should have the Pro back up this week, so I probably won't do more on the 600 this season - just ride it a few more times this spring. I'll have to keep my eyes open for some parts this summer...

 

[whoisthatguy]

I have three 04 800 x 159 Vertical Escapes in my stable. It makes it easier with troubleshooting. Sure they are heavier than the new ones that wheelie over on top of you and kill you. I can live with that shortcoming. 2004 was the first year of the new and improved cooling capacity replumbing. I also retrofitted a couple of them with extroverts and the 3 bladed Yamaha and Arctic Cat 3 bladed camoplast track and increased the pulling capability in powder by at least 50%. Where the newer deep lug sleds are getting stuck in fresh wind blown powder, this will stop and restart in place with no track spinning. Polaris does not build their sleds with the best available tracks as part of an agreement with after market suppliers.

 

[sno*jet]

Yup, I'd agree on the big blocks. I hear a lot of good things (my only experience is tearing one down for parts), but also, a lot of them went down early because of poor assembly, balance, and such. They can be built into a bulletproof, not to mention more powerful motor. I'll have to dig up those videos; people don't realize these sleds will go places, but will make you work hard for it in difficult terrain. The 600 was, to my mind, the big performer of the lot. The 700 gave you more grunt, and was just as reliable (typically), but gained you a lot of weight. The 800 was the clear winner in raw power-weight, but still heavier, and a lot more issues.

I'm still not exactly where I want to be on clutching. I'm pretty happy with how it gets up and goes from a stop, but it's showing 8300 or so wide open, and it feels like it plateaus pretty quickly once you get moving. I could try going back to the 19t, but I don't feel like it's shifted all the way out, and the clutches don't look that way either. I need to calibrate the tach, just to make sure of where I'm at. I think in part, I should probably be running a 34 degree finish angle, vs 32. I'll probably keep an eye out for an R8 helix. The R32 that was originally in it worked well on the top end, but would overrev in the midrange (apparently they're a very short progressive setup - more biased to trail riding). I think I see here what people say about heavily geared down sleds - that they're more sensitive to clutching changes. I decided to swap the SLP weights into the Pro because that needs a bit more weight, so I'm running 61g weights in it at the moment. The one other thing is that the back-shift is poor by comparison. I might swap to a TEAM clutch and keep tweaking on it, but it's working great right now. I should have the Pro back up this week, so I probably won't do more on the 600 this season - just ride it a few more times this spring. I'll have to keep my eyes open for some parts this summer...

I grew a hate for the big blocks trying to rebuild the 97 for my wife. Bottom end just looks Farm grade at best to me, (i believe polaris actually subbed the first couple years of these out to a farm company) cheap belt pulley water pump that wobbles, water manifold half bolted on like an old car exhaust manifold with allen bolts that strip easy...oh the memories... They do rip when they are running tho!

Love the 600s, even prefered them in the dragon chassis.
Ive never liked the performance of low gears but I also dont ride super high elev. Guys used to say 18 tooths wrapped the gear too tightly for effeciency and I believe it. On my edge I dropped 1 tooth on top gear and that was plenty for me. Im a fan of the bone stock button clutch also, for the peppier backshift in our heavy snow here. My 02 had a team roller on it with a pretty good helix for the bone stock rest of it, but I eventually went back to the button for that little extra rpm when climbing. If youre set on sticking with the low gears you might love the Team sec with the right helix. One way I always tested what I thought was a good aftermarket setup was to take it back to bone stock clutching and gears for a ride to confirm. Stock is hard to beat if you have clean clutches and a good factory belt. I dont subscribe to the "must shift out fully on hillclimbs" theory. You end up with an incredibly slow sled doing that in my experience. I settle on what pulls fastest up hill, not off the line. I used to pull the airbox apart and pull the foam out as well as the wall in front of the carb faces (leave the flat shelf) and they always seemed a bit throatier as well. This was on the big blocks tho, not sure if yours is same

 

[BeartoothBaron]

That's some good info, @sno*jet! Obviously, I'm partial to the small block 600, and there are lots of good reasons for that. The big block is one that can run and run if you happened to get one really well put together from the factory, or you go through it top to bottom. I hear the later 700s are particularly good. The downside is you'll always have a heavier and more complicated motor there. But if you've gotta have an 800 (or bigger!), and you build it right, it's still a pretty good platform. I'm also developing a growing theory that transfer port or direct injected engines will never match carb sleds in longevity - not ones that are rode hard anyway. Running wide open continuously puts so much heat into the pistons and rod bearings that you're always close to the edge of something starting to break down without something to cool them. On carb sleds, you've got that in the fuel wash. You'll almost never have problems with reeds either. I get why people gripe about carbs, and I'm not suggesting I'd rather go back to them, but anyone who tells you EFI is better in every way and carbs belong in a museum is really telling you they don't understand what's going on inside a performance two-stroke. And you can probably assume they could never get theirs to run right...

The air box on mine doesn't have any foam in it. Maybe it had some and the previous owner removed it though. There's a shelf in the middle and two air horns going into the lower half of the box. I can't say for sure that those are there for intake tuning; it could have more to do with sound than power. One weird thing I've come across is that the air box doesn't want to fit tight to the carbs - it'll move back to where it looks like the PTO carb is on the edge of slipping out of the boot - so I've taken to jamming a chunk of 2x4 between it and the fuel tank. I think I'll switch to a chunk of blue board XPS foam, but I tried running around without it, and ended up jamming my little first aid kit between the tank and box because it looked like the PTO carb was pulling out.

On the clutching, I'd heard the same thing about the button vs roller clutch. The roller is more responsive, but the old setup would always win the race to the top. The other reason people upgraded was for reverse, but I've been able to get by without that; another "nice to have" that people will say you can't live without... With both those, I'll consider adding it if I come across the parts, but I'm not digging or paying flea-bay prices for them. I should probably try going back to the 19t gear on top and see what it does; I know a few others have mentioned that the 18t doesn't gain much (even if it gets them closer to optimal gearing) because of the tight turn the chain has to make. Mine was originally 19/39, with a 136. That's probably not optimal if you get up high ,even with a 136 (I'm typically 7000-9000, but sometimes 10k+). Jumping to 144 probably needs about as much gear down as you can get in that chain case. I can't remember what the biggest bottom sprocket you can run on these is, but I think it's 43 or 44; 45 or higher is definitely out. If I could, I'd probably gear it the same as my Pro (19/46). One advantage of going back to the 19t is there's only the slightest of dog-legs in the chain (running 74t chain). That said, the biggest gains I noticed weren't wide open going uphill, it was on/off throttle situations where you could get the track spinning in the snow more quickly, especially on the 144. It probably depends a lot on your snow, riding elevation, and riding style. If you're in the trees a lot, you probably never hit full shift no matter how far you gear down. Anyway, I should see if I can get my hands on an R8 helix and see what I think. When I was running the R32 with adjustable weights, I found that if I set the weights based on long runs, it'd overrev like crazy from low speed or a stop; put more weight in, and it'd take off like a bandit, then lose it on the top end. It'd also be interesting to try a 50/32 and 50/34 full progressive, but that's another one I'm not going to throw money at.

 

[BeartoothBaron]

So, I'm planning on doing the top end, (and checking the bottom end over and replacing seals while I'm in there). Last time I rode it, she felt a little weak and wouldn't pull RPM like usual. And this is with fresh gas, carbs cleaned, boots checked, yada yada. Leakdown check, last time I did it, was in the mid-90s. Given that, and 20+ years and around 5000 miles, a top end just seems like a good idea. I can't say for sure it's not something else, but everything in the clutches is fairly new, so I don't think it's that. One suspect is the ATACC going out. I can't say I say any other symptoms. I've never been fully happy with the low-to-mid throttle response on that though, so I'm tempted to ditch it and see what I think. It's been on the sled seven years (give or take) and I hear they go bad... Anyway, the Pro is running fine; the main reason I'm thinking of this now is I've got a friend who wants to ride.

With that said, I'm thinking about clutching again, and mostly wondering if anyone has any thoughts on helixes. What I've got on it now is a SLP dial-a-spring 48/32M, and I run 60-62g (using SLP Magnum Force adjustable weights), but I'm wondering about going back to something with a 34 degree finish angle. I don't think I'll put the R32 back in it: the progressive part is just too short. Maybe that has to do with the gear-down, but I suspect Polaris originally clutched the sled as much for trail riding, where you'd expect the track to hook up sooner, and track speed to be much closer to actual speed above 20 MPH or so. I hear the R8 (same start and finish angle) has a longer progressive angle, so that might be worth a try. I really would have been better off with SLP's lightweight Magnum force weights (57-64g), but that came out after I bought the standard setup (60-68g). I'll definitely need less weight if I go back to a 34 degree helix, and I think my biggest question is what the advantages and disadvantages are of more weight with a shallower helix vs. less weight and steeper helix (finish angle). The shallow finish (32 degree) with more weight works in terms of peak RPM, and isn't terrible overall, but it could be better; maybe I went the wrong way with that. I suppose swapping between what I've got now and an R8 helix with lighter weights should tell me something. I'm also curious if anyone's tried a full progressive helix. Finally, anybody got some helixes and weights I could add to my collection?

 

[whoisthatguy]

So, I'm planning on doing the top end, (and checking the bottom end over and replacing seals while I'm in there). Last time I rode it, she felt a little weak and wouldn't pull RPM like usual. And this is with fresh gas, carbs cleaned, boots checked, yada yada. Leakdown check, last time I did it, was in the mid-90s. Given that, and 20+ years and around 5000 miles, a top end just seems like a good idea. I can't say for sure it's not something else, but everything in the clutches is fairly new, so I don't think it's that. One suspect is the ATACC going out. I can't say I say any other symptoms. I've never been fully happy with the low-to-mid throttle response on that though, so I'm tempted to ditch it and see what I think. It's been on the sled seven years (give or take) and I hear they go bad... Anyway, the Pro is running fine; the main reason I'm thinking of this now is I've got a friend who wants to ride.

With that said, I'm thinking about clutching again, and mostly wondering if anyone has any thoughts on helixes. What I've got on it now is a SLP dial-a-spring 48/32M, and I run 60-62g (using SLP Magnum Force adjustable weights), but I'm wondering about going back to something with a 34 degree finish angle. I don't think I'll put the R32 back in it: the progressive part is just too short. Maybe that has to do with the gear-down, but I suspect Polaris originally clutched the sled as much for trail riding, where you'd expect the track to hook up sooner, and track speed to be much closer to actual speed above 20 MPH or so. I hear the R8 (same start and finish angle) has a longer progressive angle, so that might be worth a try. I really would have been better off with SLP's lightweight Magnum force weights (57-64g), but that came out after I bought the standard setup (60-68g). I'll definitely need less weight if I go back to a 34 degree helix, and I think my biggest question is what the advantages and disadvantages are of more weight with a shallower helix vs. less weight and steeper helix (finish angle). The shallow finish (32 degree) with more weight works in terms of peak RPM, and isn't terrible overall, but it could be better; maybe I went the wrong way with that. I suppose swapping between what I've got now and an R8 helix with lighter weights should tell me something. I'm also curious if anyone's tried a full progressive helix. Finally, anybody got some helixes and weights I could add to my collection?

Atacc last only 2 years, in my experience. Pull it and reset the main jets to 400 with the needle in the #2 position for 0 feet to 8000 feet and 20 deg F to 45 deg F. 62 gram weights and green spring are standard for the original P-85 primary clutch on the RMK. I would focus on the cylinders, rings and pistons. I'll bet that the cylinders are toast at this point. As in, lots of gouges. But if you don't have gouges, I have taken one of those cylinder honers with 3 blades, but wrapped the blades in 2000 grit wet/dry sandpaper and brought the cylinder walls to a mirror finish. Then I put some diagonal honing lines in it by hand, or you could lightly use the 3 blade honer without the sandpaper. Then buy 2 new SPI pistons with rings set for about $115 from sledpartsguy off of Ebay. You can't beat the price. Your O rings on the cylinder head are probably toast. Bring the compression up to over 135 psi. I would probably replace the stator because the new ones give you more power, for about $166 on Ebay.

 

[BeartoothBaron]

Well, at least I got more than two years out of my ATACC. One thing I wonder is how many fail because of a leak somewhere or another in the system; I'll have to check it over before I toss it. The pressures involved are minuscule, so it doesn't take much... I think I have 320 jets in it right now. 400s sound like 800 territory. I had to go a step richer on the pilot jet (40 to 45, I think) and run the needle in #1 or #2 position after I put on the ATACC. The idle was finicky too - I think I went a quarter turn or so in on the air jet. But until recently, it always pulled well at WOT, and seemed to do it's job and eliminate the double effect of elevation on carbs (losing as much power because of the jetting being rich as from the thinner air). As long as it's working, I'd say worth it if you go up and down a lot in elevation, but not worth it if your riding zone is pretty consistent.

The cylinders have always looked great from what I can see, but you never know until you get in there. I've got a bore gauge, so I can check for taper and out-of-round. If that checks out, I might take the jugs somewhere to have them honed. I've done something similar to what you describe with a brake hone when I had calipers that just needed a light touch, but from my reading about honing, it might be worth the $50 or so to get the angle and grit just right. I've followed Indy Dan on honing pretty closely, but I suspect there should be some cross-hatch for ring break-in and oil retention. But I'm thinking something like a 200 grit - just enough to set it in without removing much material - and then something like 1000 grit to get to a plateau finish. Hopefully I can find a machine shop that speaks two-stroke... I get the sense that honing nikasil by hand is risky, and you're better off doing little or nothing over trying to match the best with just a drill and lever-type hone.

I'll check out the stater; I've been meaning to build a test setup so I can measure in the tenth ohm range. That said I've never seen any indications of electrical issues, so hopefully it's good. All seals would be replaced. For pistons, OE pistons are still available at around $200 each, and I'll probably go that way. I actually put SPI hyperdryve pistons in the Pro, but that's mostly because the Wossners I put in after I had a cylinder go down caused some abnormal wear, and I didn't think it was worth the expense ($320 each!) when I might have to re-plate the cylinders before long anyway. If the cylinders on the 600 seem sketchy, I might chance something cheaper, but I'm not too worried. Given how long it's gone, I want the closest thing to the pistons it came with. I don't know that they make them that well anymore, but hopefully OE is worth the price. Of course, part of the longevity seems to be the better lubrication you get from gas/oil wash in the bottom end. Anyway, I don't have illusions of chasing the big boys in this sled - it's just too limiting and difficult to ride in more challenging terrain - but it's still great fun to rip around more mellow terrain, and honestly just as much fun to ride once the good snow turns to mush.

 

[whoisthatguy]

The headlight can reveal whether the stator is going out. If it flickers while running, but the engine still runs, then it has some issues. If the headlight goes out when you try to rev it up, and the engine then won't stay running, your stator is definitely bad. They are so cheap on Ebay, that it is a good investment to help keep you alive when the stator finally decides to quit 20 miles from the snopark. When I removed a swaybar on one of my 800 RMK 159, I then went with XC springs. Since I have sled with both, after comparing, I like the one with the sway bar still installed and the stock rmk springs. I would not waste my money on OEM pistons.

 

[whoisthatguy]

As far as the Liberty engines are concerned, they only have 3 issues that need to be addressed. 1. Replace the 4 outside crank bearings every 2000 miles. 2. Grind the tips of the VES guillotines down about 1/32 nd of an inch and monitor the stop on those guillotines so that if they show any crushing, you replace them and 3. On years up to about 2003, their was no oil drip hole in the top half of the crankcase, from the PTO piston spray area beneath the cylinder, that drained oil directly onto the PTO bearings. Drill it yourself. Once the guillotine stop starts to crush, then the VES guillotines will grind against both the rings and the piston, causing cylinder damage and engine failure.

 

[BeartoothBaron]

Well, I've gathered most of the parts needed to do the top end. I went with OE pistons, and now that I have them in hand, I'm happy I went that way. I was a little concerned Polaris might switch suppliers or something, but I got a pair of Austrian-made Elko pistons (as well as OE wrist pin bearings). For all I know, cast knock-offs could last just as long, but I'd rather stick with what lasted over 20 years and almost 5000 miles than take a chance - even though it's another $200. I'm not of the same mind on the o-rings and gaskets though - other than the cylinder base gaskets. They want $20 for each piston o-ring and $35 for the head cover. Also, I find a lot of Polaris o-rings are made in China or Taiwan now, so I don't think you're getting anything for your money. Possibly highway robbery going on there. I bought a SPI gasket set, and I already have Comitec crank seals. I used to lean towards Winderosa for gaskets, but they got bought out several years ago (now the same company as All Balls ) and they've switched names to Vertex. I suspect it's the same stuff (maybe even some Polaris pieces).

One stumble was on the base gaskets. I wanted the metal ones - I've heard they're less likely to give trouble than the paper ones - but accidentally got the OE paper ones because I thought Polaris had superseded to the metal ones for all 600 VES/HOs. Nope. The HO has the metal one, and they still make the paper one for the VES. One side-note on that: I measured the thickness of the OE vs the SPI base gasket, and the SPI is about .005 thicker. So if you run SPI base gaskets, you're losing a little compression. I'm a little split on what to do. I could probably return the OE paper gaskets and get the metal ones. On the other hand, I'm running paper gaskets coated with anaerobic sealer on the Pro, and it seems fine. I'll probably see what they say about returning them, but I'm curious if everyone else seems to agree that the metal ones are a wise choice. Anyway, I just need a little warmer weather to pull the motor out, and I can't wait to get this going. I might be too late for the great snow we've been having, but once we get into spring, I'll probably want to take the old sled instead of the Pro anyway. It'll be fun to see what kind of new life I can breathe into the old girl!