BDX oil delete, Caused 09 M1000 crank seize in 950miles running 40:1

[backcountryislife]

In my experience with grease and fast spinning gears, the grease gets "slung" off the gears pretty easy and sticks to the sides of the case while the gears tend to run dry. I would use like a "Lucas Oil Stabilizer" or a "Power Punch Oil Supplement" in there I think. It is thick and super slick. Just pull the plug and squirt some of this up in there.

You can get the "T" fittings at any auto parts store. You could use brass or plastic because there is no pressure on these lines.

Aaron

Keep in mind though, that the presence of at least SOME premix in that center section is inevitable, which would thin the grease out significantly. Either way there would be a small amount if time where it would act the way you just described before the premix has time to seep in there in a quantity significant enough to thin the grease.
I may add a more middle of the road lubricant next time, but my thought was that the thicker grease would stick around longer.

Btw, the issue of running the sled lean with premix has been brought up a couple times, I ran one 07 lean enough to burn down 5 times while running premix. It never had a problem with the delete in all that time of being on the ragged edge. I can see it being a factor, but I think I subscribe to what bgreen said at one point, some sleds just allow more oil to seep through than others. Obviously I have had ones that allow more rather than less.

 

[bgreen776]

With understanding how a two-stroke works, it is pretty easy to assume there is not pushing and pulling of air or oil in that center cavity, otherwise it would affect the opposite cylinder and they would not be able to counter-act each other. Am I saying there is no seepage at all between the inner bearings, no. What I am saying is I can't see those inner bearings relying on any oil being pulled into them through that center cavity, or the theory of it being a two-stroke wouldn't work.
Aaron

There is a transfer of "fluid" (air and fuel mixture) between cylinders. You explained it yourself. As one side of the crankcase is pressurized the other is experiencing a vacuum. There is not a positive seal between the two cylinders. The Labbys leak, the rings that "seal" the labby leak, and the bevel on the upper half of the case leaks. There is fluid transfer from one cylinder to the next. This is absolute. What is unknown is how much actually transfers and its going to be different from one engine to the next. This depends on manufacturing tolerances, some engines are going to be slightly tighter than others.

You are right though, the two sides are almost completely sealed from one another. If they weren't effectively seperated, the engine wouldn't even start.

For example: The old man drilled a .100" hole under the piston, into the cavity where the gear is, on both sides. His engine starts and runs fine. So... you can have transfer. You just can't have too much. The following picture shows the pockets he milled for the ports he drilled into the waterpump shaft cavity, he just never took one of the final product. I finally decided to only drill one hole because I didn't want to deal with runability problems with having too much transfer from one cylinder to the next as I drilled a .185" hole.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

There are different lean conditions, a burn down is from lean on top. If the entire map is lean and if you consider the heat of everything the air being moved around never gets enough oil far enough to penetrate the full bearing and crank. My bearing failed which is not part of the center sections but is part of the cylinder. Most sleds will load up enough to soak the bottom end. I ran 6 miles of trail from 45-85mph, never letting the oil sit long enough and as the crank rotates it throws the oil away from the center, with oil in the center cavity it can seep through and add more lub which is obviously needed in my case. With the factory setup even if you ran the fuel lean it would still get the same amount of oil. By injecting the pre mix it completely changes the needs of how to get enough lube.

Also the on the down stoke the reeds let some air out through the intake, thats why everyone has oily intakes. thus less pressure to force into the center cavity. If I could I would put oil injectors in that spray each bearing.

 

[black swan]

side-note:

08 m1000 2300miles, 25months old......crank pto bearing failure, punch hole in bottom of case. original owner.

motor 100% stock--was never opened, injection was stock from beginning, ave 32:1 last 700miles.

running WOT on deepest day of the year, 2 hrs later...blam!

 

[krom]

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Any way we can start a new thread on this?

 

[HCM]

mine did the same thing this weekend with the Twisted kit on it so it must not get enough oil ether with the hole drilled in the case from one side to the other so now what kind of grease should I put in there when I put it back together.

 

[tar]

If you run the delete you can add the cross over hose from the bottom with out much work.Remove the belly pan and you can get to the case.
You can drill and tap from the bottom.
If your have your motor out and apart I would drill the extra holes.

I have two M1000 with the delete and the cross over hose.
On one the cross over hose loosened up and came off the case and I had a failure.

I think the center needs a little lube.
A grease zerk will leak, and you have remember to lube it.
Holes in the case or the cross over hose will be automatic.

Tar

 

[WyoBoy1000]

mine did the same thing this weekend with the Twisted kit on it so it must not get enough oil ether with the hole drilled in the case from one side to the other so now what kind of grease should I put in there when I put it back together.

How many miles, what oil do you use and what ratio do you mix it??

 

[HCM]

1600 total 600 miles on the kit I was told. 40.1 oil.

 

[bgreen776]

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Sorry guys... I'd love to help out but I cant see the last 14 posts in this thread.

 

[catunder]

Awesome Pictures

The labrynth seals leak enough gas/oil to lubricate the gear and bushing in all but the rarest cases (ie, the few failures we see on this forum and others). If they didn't you couldn't have guys like wyoboy1000 and the hundreds of other customers that have installed the bdx oil elimination kit per bdx instructions, without ever having trouble. People have been eliminating their oil injection on these sleds since the day there were first released. Greasing helps, porting the case helps, but if the tolerances between the pump shaft and the bdx bushing stack up wrong your likely to have a failure.

Here are some pictures of the case porting that the old man did on his Turbo HCR and the porting I am doing on my M1000.

http://picasaweb.google.com/akfabshop/THCR?feat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/akfabshop/OilDeleteMods?feat=directlink

and a link where aaron and I have been discussing some of the same things you guys are talking about in this thread.

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=200209

bgreen776 Thanks for all of the time you took to take and post all of those good pictures.

 

[HCM]

So this extra oil bottle that is getting put on how much oil does it go trough a day is it gone in the first mile or will it last all day. Sounds like it will burn it as fast as it is put in there witch does not do any good if you ride it dry after the oil is gone. Thanks.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

I'm not sure about the oil bottle on a turbo, the center cavity has seal but it still breathes. So with boost it may just push air into the bottle???, thats why drilling the case to the center cavity works with the check valve. the pressure pushes left over residue down the tube and past the one way valve to the center cavity. It also work the same on the down stroke on a NA sled.

 

[HCM]

That is what I was wondering Ill just slam a Zerk in there then and call it good should have my new motor Wednesday so just trying to cover my bases I guess thanks Wyo.

 

[rusty rider]

That is exactly what I am testing on the bench right now......I am going to try plugging the 2 ports that go to the intake boots for injection and see if it still pumps oil to the bottom of the engine by itself. I have to run and go get 2 short 6mm bolts to block off the holes. If this works, all guys would have to do is pull the banjo fittings to the intake boots and install bolts. They wouldn't even need to buy the BDX kit. If it works I will get a little oil bottle and just fill it once in a blue moon.

Going to plug these holes.

Sorry wyo about your machine

Aaronbnd is right with the pics, that is exactly how I did my delete, I made my own little reservoir that holds about 20 oz, if I use up my tank and add in my extra can of 3 gal of fuel it will use most of the small reservoir of oil. I'm @ 40:1, slp pipe and y, tunnel dump, bdx intake, pc3 form eric at racin station. Ride @ 10,000 + Since this pic was taken I got rid of the copper reservoir and made a shorter one out of 1 1/2'' black abs plastic so it has more volume, the center chamber actually takes quite a bit of oil. This IMO is the only way to actually do this with no issues in the future, many miles on mine with no problems.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

The oil bottle with the pump is a very good way to do it, (the only way IMO) but the twisted kits use the oil pump for the turbo oil pump so thats not an option on a twisted kit.

 

[HCM]

Nice looking set up there wish my sled was that clean but buy the time I get done rebuilding mine I could of got a new one.

 

[907KB]

Funny how if you look at the list of people who have read this post on the bottom of the first screen you will see "BD-Xtreme". Think they had anything to say or add?

Aaron

Come on they named it accordingly OIL DELETE

 

[lasse]

How to lubricate the water pump shaft gear... ?

If you pull the crank out you will see the hole BDX wants you to plug with their supplied bolt.
That is where the brass gear is oiled from. There is even a line running from your stock oilpump right to it.
Make sense now?
Ours stripped all of the teeth off of the brass gear and bent the oilpump\waterpump driveshaft about a half inch.
Ever notice whenever you split the cases on ANY 2 stroke there is always a puddle of oil in the bottom of the cases?
That's where you get the small amount of oil for your brass gear when you drill and tap the hole.

The BDX kit only lasts when you relocate the oil lines on the bottom of the motor like Shain Stanger does.
I have rebuilt 2 M1000 motors with good luck.

The question is....what can the regular Joe Blow do to protect himself ?

Is that center section a positive vacuum I assume?
If that's the case, a guy should be able to get a 6mm 90* barb fitting and screw it in the bottom of the case and have a little bottle full of oil somewhere for it to draw out of going to it in a clear line.
It would be interesting to see at the end of a 3-4 hour ride if the bottle was down at all.

For me, doing the delete was for a more consistent injection mix. You hear a lot of cases of the stock oiler going bad too whether over oiling or under oiling so I guess either way has it's problems.

I got about 250 miles at 40-1 premix when water pump shaft and bushing were toast. replaced all and now run a Ski-Doo racing bottle [ holds about 5 ozs.] reroute oil lines from throttle bottle boots back to tank, keep oil line going to crank cavity and good to go. i use about 2 ozs per 50 mile ride and no worries.

Pictures ?

Great idea.
I've been greasing the cavity every few rides, which is kind of a PITA... and potential blow-up is always in the back of my mind.
Just ordered a racing bottle from a Ski-Doo dealer, # 420 956 240

In the Ski-Doo pictures they are using it for the same thing.
To lube the oil pump shaft cavity when pre-mixing.
But, from the pics it looks gravity fed (no pump).

From what I've read, sounds like gravity feed would use oil faster than the pump system? Guys talk about smoking like crazy, etc..
Opinions ??

No gravity feed. Just used fittings I had, make sure you connect to the proper outlet on the bottom of the tank, also the cap didnt vent very well so i put a one way check valve in. c
heck this by filling with oil and see in drains out with cap tight, put a tee in the main oil line feeding the oil pump, then connect the two oil lines that were going too your reed cages to another tee and connect the two tees , done.

It's sounding to me like the only safe method is the little tank in there oiling that lower cavity.

Well, I am doing the small Ski-Doo race bottle as stated above and tested everything on the bench.
Instead of going back into the tank with the injection lines that go to the intake boots, I just "T'd" them together into one line and will "T" it right below the nipple of the bottle into the pump feed line. It works like a champ. I will have my premix for consistency, but maintain oil to that center cavity.
Can't see it using more than an ounce or two a ride tops. Not saying you have to have this, but after this whole post it will be nice to have the peace of mind anyways.

Pictures ?

There is a bevel on the upper case split line that keeps the laby rings from sealing 100%.
I don't know how much effect they have on pre-mix getting into the center cavity, but they will flow to some extent (its beveled on both sides. Something to consider.

I will NOT do a BDX-delete !

When doing a Oil Injection delete on a watercooled ROTAX snowmobile engine you just connect the two outlets from the bottle and then fill the waterpump cavity with oil.
The oil will now gravity feed the water pump cavity.
Never more any problem.
My question is: Why can't this be done on the laydown Suzuki engines ?

 

[lasse]

Full Oil-Injection/pump delete... ?

Ok, I've tried to look at this both ways & either way I don't get it.

IF the center cavity is 100% sealed then shooting some grease in there would solve the problem.

IF the center is not sealed, then we don't have a problem at all,
the premix will get in there one way or another.

The water pump cavity is not sealed to 100 % due to the labyrinth seals.

The stock labyrinth seal on crankshaft leak enough gas/oil to lubricate the gear and bushing.
The center cavity is not completely sealed.
If it was, that cavity would pump completely full of oil and you'd probably blow the oil seal and waterpump seal out.
A labyrinth seal is not a positive seal, especially the little tiny ones we have in our crankshafts.

The Arctic Cat 600 cc race engines have 2 passages drilled in the crankcase to direct lube to the waterpup gears and bushings, the race sleds where siezing pump shafts untill they did this.

That is one one way to do it.
Picture of a Race crankcase ?

I think the mod you did bgreen is the proper way to do it.
Unfortunately, not everyone tears their engine down like you did to do the mod the correct way.
The question is... what can the regular Joe Blow do to protect himself when he wants this mod?

Is that center section a positive vacuum I assume?
If that's the case, a guy should be able to get a 6 mm 90° barb fitting and screw it in the bottom of the case and have a little bottle full of oil somewhere for it to draw out of going to it in a clear line.
It would be interesting to see at the end of a 3-4 hour ride if the bottle was down at all.

For me, doing the delete was for a more consistent injection mix.
I figured it was at least a good 8lbs losing the oil tank too.
You hear a lot of cases of the stock oiler going bad too whether over oiling or under oiling so I guess either way has it's problems.

Yes, oil level will have decreased
because the labyrinth seals do not seal to 100%
...Been there done that

The decision to delete your oil pump should be based on several factors, one of which is your own tolerance for risk.
If a person wants to delete their pump simply to save a few lbs, but doesn't have the budget to pay someone to strip their motor down and do the porting (or have the time/ability to do it themselves),
they probably shouldn't consider it an option.
A burned up motor or two is a pretty expensive way to save 8 lbs or less.

If a guy is concerned about a stickey oil pump causing runability problems, has exhausted all other means of eliminating his bog/etc,
has the time and ability to perform the necessary mods to the case,
and has a moderate tolerance for risk,
then this stuff we are talking about might make sense.

The center section is probably in a constant state of change, positive pressure, through one part of the cycle, and negative pressure (vacuum) in the other.

I hooked up a hose to a banjo fitting to the bottom hole,
ran the hose up and tied it off and plugged it off after adding an ounce or two...

I can fill that hose all day and start the sled and it smokes like a train...
so the oil definately passes through the cavity and labyrinth seals into the main crankcase...
so the crankcase definately lubes the cavity.

x2
exactly !

I run 40-1 premix and have a Ski-Doo racing bottle ( holds about 5 ozs.) reroute oil lines from throttle bottle boots back to tank, keep oil line going to crank cavity and good to go.
I use about 2 ozs per 50 mile ride and no worries.

I've been greasing the cavity every few rides, which is kind of a PITA...
and potential blow-up is always in the back of my mind.
Just ordered a racing bottle from a Ski-Doo dealer

In the Ski-Doo pictures (440/600 racer parts diagram),
they are using it for the same thing...
to lube the oil pump shaft cavity when pre-mixing.
But, from the pics it looks gravity fed (no pump).

From what I've read, sounds like gravity feed would use oil faster than the pump system?
Guys talk about smoking like crazy, etc..

Opinions ??

Rotax uses a far more supperior crank seal compared to the Suzuki labyrinth seal.
Rotax crank seal design seals to 99~100%
On all Rotax water cooled engines with an Oil Delete you just mount the bootle and the gravity will take care of the rest.
Rotax has had this design since the 70's.
Fill the oil reservoir at the beginning of each season and then you will not need to refill it throughout the season ( provided the seals are intact )

Just for reference, are you one that greases, shoots oil in there or does nothing? Take pictures when you have it tore down. I am curious if your inner crank bearings are spinning rough, if your oilite seal in the end of the BDX piece is dry, or if the gears are stripped or seized on the pump shaft.
We HAVE to get to the bottom of this for guys.
It's sounding to me like the only safe method is the little tank in there oiling that lower cavity.

I am doing the small Ski-Doo race bottle as stated above and tested everything on the bench.
Instead of going back into the tank with the injection lines that go to the intake boots, I just "T'd" them together into one line and will "T" it right below the nipple of the bottle into the pump feed line.
It works like a champ.
I will have my premix for consistency but maintain oil to that center cavity. Can't see it using more than an ounce or two a ride tops.
Not saying you have to have this, but after this whole post it will be nice to have the peace of mind anyways.

I have tried this on Wife's sled and I must fill the oil bottle before every ride.
Next step is to get the same type of crank seals that Rotax using and mount them on the Suzuki cranksahft.
I am tired of constantly filling the oil reservoir and that a lot of unnecessary oil is constantly being supplied
which, among other things, has an adverse effect on idling.