858 Updates Coming from AC????

[madmax]

40 is way too low even on the 800 with a variety of springs. I tried a 43 on the ascender 800 and it was terrible at 11k ft. Would have instant backshift and rev, but overall did not pull hard and was consistently 5mph less track speed in deep pow. I ended up with a 46 straight and it was great IMO. I feel this 858 will pull a 48 fine from how mine has felt so far. Time will tell. Cat and Polaris pull helix angles totally different from each other.

The 858 pulls the 48 fine on the top end, but the back shift is non existent. It’s a trade off on how you want the sled to perform.
The approach angle on the RMK and Khsos are virtually identical, I have both and have measured. If anything, it’s maybe 1-2 degrees different. The doo approach angle is even worse.
Final drive ratio on matryx (QD2) and 858 are pretty much identical. The actual gear ratio of cats belt drive is lower, but cat uses 7 tooth drivers and Polaris uses 6 tooth. You do a gearing calculation on both, final drive comes out the same.

 

[Reddragon800]

The 858 pulls the 48 fine on the top end, but the back shift is non existent. It’s a trade off on how you want the sled to perform.
The approach angle on the RMK and Khsos are virtually identical, I have both and have measured. If anything, it’s maybe 1-2 degrees different. The doo approach angle is even worse.
Final drive ratio on matryx (QD2) and 858 are pretty much identical. The actual gear ratio of cats belt drive is lower, but cat uses 7 tooth drivers and Polaris uses 6 tooth. You do a gearing calculation on both, final drive comes out the same.

So this is pulling the 48 fine....

 

[562xp]

So this is pulling the 48 fine....

It looks like mine, not good.

 

[Driver]

So this is pulling the 48 fine....

Too steep helix and they have to compensate with light clutch (light weights) to get the rpm right and this is what happens.

Again Im rattling some cages but here we go.

There's a reason why best riders in the world ride sleds that are revvy and light on the throttle. Riding those steep helixes makes the sled slow on throttle and you need more rider input in order to make the sled maneuver. Its impossible to make sled nimble and agile when engine response is slow and makes quick maneuvers hard. Old school tuners are all about track speed and low engagment and can't understand the concept of riding characteristics. They are stuck on the 90s just staring at the rpm gauge. "My sled is on correct rpm and pulling hard so this is the best".

There was talk about Syxxes vids, those sleds are just that. Heavy loading, hard pulling clutching. It makes their riding difficult and there's no skills to compensate so overall it makes riding very difficult. You also use the engine momentum to stabilize the sled and make in maneuver with the throttle.

Yeah if you are pulling chutes and drag racing your friends up the hill, heavy loading powertrain will give you the benefit. But when going for actual deep snow riding which is tree riding and technical steep and deep, it makes riding difficult. Look at Turcotte latest videos of his boost build and riding videos how it evolves.

If you watch Calebs vids, those sleds are 8300-8500rpm instant on throttle. He rides shallow stock helixes on all of his sleds. When Turcotte made his Boost build, the clutching was off right from the beginning. It was slow on throttle and you could see his riding was off for the first few rides. He lightened the powertrain and finally he said it was on point and he could push properly.

 

[clutch]

You people do realize that the clutch is never going to reach full shift until it is at max mph. I guess you could gear it for 45-50 mph top speed if you really wanted full shift in the deep snow, but it would be a complete turd.

 

[Reddragon800]

Too steep helix and they have to compensate with light clutch (light weights) to get the rpm right and this is what happens.

Again Im rattling some cages but here we go.

There's a reason why best riders in the world ride sleds that are revvy and light on the throttle. Riding those steep helixes makes the sled slow on throttle and you need more rider input in order to make the sled maneuver. Its impossible to make sled nimble and agile when engine response is slow and makes quick maneuvers hard. Old school tuners are all about track speed and low engagment and can't understand the concept of riding characteristics. They are stuck on the 90s just staring at the rpm gauge. "My sled is on correct rpm and pulling hard so this is the best".

There was talk about Syxxes vids, those sleds are just that. Heavy loading, hard pulling clutching. It makes their riding difficult and there's no skills to compensate so overall it makes riding very difficult. You also use the engine momentum to stabilize the sled and make in maneuver with the throttle.

Yeah if you are pulling chutes and drag racing your friends up the hill, heavy loading powertrain will give you the benefit. But when going for actual deep snow riding which is tree riding and technical steep and deep, it makes riding difficult. Look at Turcotte latest videos of his boost build and riding videos how it evolves.

If you watch Calebs vids, those sleds are 8300-8500rpm instant on throttle. He rides shallow stock helixes on all of his sleds. When Turcotte made his Boost build, the clutching was off right from the beginning. It was slow on throttle and you could see his riding was off for the first few rides. He lightened the powertrain and finally he said it was on point and he could push properly.

Caleb runs a good clutch set....He doesn't ride shallow helix's, just clutching that works correctly. Turcotte runs ibexx and took it out as it doesnt work well.

 

[ratlover]

Clutching for peak RPM is easy, just change weights till its where you want. Its the fine tuning and the dance of all the related parts that is an art and more complicated. To get it to that RPM and stay there as quick as possible as you are on and off the throttle. Thats what Im fuzzy on. Seems like an art and a ton of parts swapping to get the experience to have a feel for it. Ive heard guys talk about reading the belt wear/contact pattern but never 100% understood it or what to do about it.

I ordered a speedwerx hypershift clutch kit for 8000+ feet. Guess I should have asked them what the helix angle is of it. Anyone know off hand? Cant seem to find the info on their site.

 

[Reddragon800]

Clutching for peak RPM is easy, just change weights till its where you want. Its the fine tuning and the dance of all the related parts that is an art and more complicated. To get it to that RPM and stay there as quick as possible as you are on and off the throttle. Thats what Im fuzzy on. Seems like an art and a ton of parts swapping to get the experience to have a feel for it. Ive heard guys talk about reading the belt wear/contact pattern but never 100% understood it or what to do about it.

I ordered a speedwerx hypershift clutch kit for 8000+ feet. Guess I should have asked them what the helix angle is of it. Anyone know off hand? Cant seem to find the info on their site.

Most Aftermarket companies wont tell you what the helix angle is. Not sure how companies are releasing clutch kits with almost no testing. The 858 dosen't even run properly yet... how are they selling clutch kits.

This takes weeks of real world testing to get it right.

 

[MTsled3]

Most Aftermarket companies wont tell you what the helix angle is. Not sure how companies are releasing clutch kits with almost no testing. The 858 dosen't even run properly yet... how are they selling clutch kits.

This takes weeks of real world testing to get it right.

I never buy from brands that release stuff before the production models are even on the snow. Clutching, cans, etc.

 

[ratlover]

A straight cut helix angle is a straight cut angle right? Between Cat or aftermarkets it should all be the same right if its the same angle?

 

[bnorth]

So this is pulling the 48 fine....

The hub is too big on the secondary you will never see full shift on a Cat with stock Team Boss secondary. It's frustrating as hell.

 

[BeartoothBaron]

It costs money to re-engineer stuff and that hits the stock price. Stock price is king in all industries today. Doesn't matter how great/crappy the product or service is as long as you can find ways to keep it growing.

All too true. I think there's growing backlash though, and I'm hoping that short-sighted approach to management dies off as we see some giants collapse because of it. Could happen with Boeing, for instance. There is probably some truth to Polaris just being lazy here. You have Avid now selling a D&R kit that costs $1200-$2000 just to get what the Catalyst comes with. Of course, you might say the same of Cat if they never offer a twin-rail option; people will pay good money to convert over, although I don't have anything against the monorail in my limited experience.

Clutching for peak RPM is easy, just change weights till its where you want. Its the fine tuning and the dance of all the related parts that is an art and more complicated. To get it to that RPM and stay there as quick as possible as you are on and off the throttle. Thats what Im fuzzy on. Seems like an art and a ton of parts swapping to get the experience to have a feel for it. Ive heard guys talk about reading the belt wear/contact pattern but never 100% understood it or what to do about it.

I ordered a speedwerx hypershift clutch kit for 8000+ feet. Guess I should have asked them what the helix angle is of it. Anyone know off hand? Cant seem to find the info on their site.

The belt wear and contact pattern tells you if your clutch is shifting out fully, if your alignment is good, and if you've got other problems; the concepts aren't difficult, but it takes a better trained eye than mine to pinpoint every potential problem. You're right about some people just adjusting for peak RPM (and engagement) and calling it a day. Or worse yet, call themselves clutching experts. I think @Driver makes some good points there too. Sometimes, all you need is to tweak the stock clutching - which isn't mature on the 858 yet. Even when Cat/Doo/Poo sort out their clutching though, it's always a compromise: if test riders complain about a sled being buzzy on the trail or having twitchy throttle response, they're probably going to dial that back.

I've heard people complain about some of the best clutching (like TRS's, which is what my sled has) because of things like that, and it's probably a mismatch between the setup and the rider's preferences. The clutching gurus can easily make a kit they'd like, but a lot of people make the mistake of assuming that clutching their sled like Burandt (or whoever) is what they want without knowing what they're asking for. I'm also a fan of experimenting and learning as much as you can about clutching. Trying to move beyond the basics (like stabilized peak RPM and engagement) really takes changing one thing at a time, seeing what it does, trying the next thing, and figuring out the interplay between all the pieces. After monkeying with my old 600 and building up a box of helixes, springs, and weights, I'm only to the point where it's like lobbing artillery shells. I know the basic principles, but I'm usually wrong if I think I can fix everything at once. I usually have to go back to change one thing, fire for effect, change another thing, fire for effect, and eventually I'll hit the target. Or maybe it's just the "enough monkeys on a typewriter" effect - I don't know. I do know you'll waste some money swapping parts to test your theories on your way to becoming a clutching master guy who can clutch his sled and not make it worse.

 

[ratlover]

Its like suspension tuning. A bit of it comes down to personal preference and learning what you like and also how it reacts to changing snow. I spend 1/2 my day stuck though so not as much time as some to tweak and tune.

According to speedwerx the weights are same profile as Cat just adjustable. Kinda hoped/assumed that Cat had to be fairly close on that.

Its only $ buying parts trying to learn, cant take it with me only have so much good snow though so want to not make my sled worse than stock and waste good days wrenching in the trailer.

 

[Driver]

You people do realize that the clutch is never going to reach full shift until it is at max mph. I guess you could gear it for 45-50 mph top speed if you really wanted full shift in the deep snow, but it would be a complete turd.

Well you can get the maximum shift occasionally at some extreme situations but there will always be some belt slipping. So you won't be seeing maximum theoretical track speeds. But this is how cvt powertrain works. I agree that gearing has to be around 30% over maximum usable track speed, meaning that if you want those 90-100kmh track speeds gearing must be able for 120-130mh. You should never gear down with idea that full shift you get that 90-100kmh, its not gonna work well.

 

[Driver]

Caleb runs a good clutch set....He doesn't ride shallow helix's, just clutching that works correctly. Turcotte runs ibexx and took it out as it doesnt work well.

He uses helixes that have end angle between 40 or 42. In my books that's quite shallow.

That's what most aftermarket companies do. Steep helix with heavy springs, you get the feeling of hard pulling sled but riding in actual deep snow technical riding it sucks as throttle will be slow and sled reacts slow.

 

[Reddragon800]

He uses helixes that have end angle between 40 or 42. In my books that's quite shallow.

That's what most aftermarket companies do. Steep helix with heavy springs, you get the feeling of hard pulling sled but riding in actual deep snow technical riding it sucks as throttle will be slow and sled reacts slow.

Well, its clear that you dont know what your talking about. Guessing as to what someone is using in there sled versus some that knows whats in his sled...

Thanks tho.

 

[Reddragon800]

Well you can get the maximum shift occasionally at some extreme situations but there will always be some belt slipping. So you won't be seeing maximum theoretical track speeds. But this is how cvt powertrain works. I agree that gearing has to be around 30% over maximum usable track speed, meaning that if you want those 90-100kmh track speeds gearing must be able for 120-130mh. You should never gear down with idea that full shift you get that 90-100kmh, its not gonna work well.

This is again factually incorrect. Please stop giving advice when you clearly have no idea what your talking about.

 

[Sleddinhunter]

I got my sled out and it rips. The hesitation it had at 5500 is gone. It is awesome just need more snow. So I think the update worked. No problems to report other than snow depth. 26” in The Bighorns out of Lovell.

 

[Chewy22]

It took mine for out for a little trail ride yesterday, after the dealer did the software update; not enough snow to really get off trail. She rips! 35 miles and 2 hours on the meter, had .6 hours when I started. I did not ride before the mapping update. I did all the little fixes, except the brake rotor, no issues.

A few notes from the limited time:

1. I can only compare to the test ride we did in West last spring and wow did Cat F-up with the demo sleds they did not have tuned right. Was not even close to my new sled. AC needs to do better, what a disaster. Snowest was spot on on their first review. Glad AC course corrected and got them out again after some adjustments but consumers should have never been allowed to ride those.

2. Installed the track guards, you do remove the stock covers. Initially thoughts are iffy. I’m a huge fan of the Ascender skid plate and I’m not sold these will work as well. Time will tell.

3. There is a change on the y-pipe springs. The new ones are slightly longer. Just waiting for those to come in. But I did put RTV on mine, always do, and it worked fine. It does look like the current ones are stretched a bit so longer should be better.

4. Someone please come up with a better switch to adjust the ATAC shocks, what a fricken pain in the ass those are. I can’t figure out how to work that damn stock switch. I’ve read and tried everything…GRR!!! PLEASE!!!

5. These are not trail sleds and those that bought one to be dual purpose will have work to do. The reality is they run hot in $hitty snow. No debating that. You will need one or a combo of the following:
- a better or more ice scratchers. I’ve seen pics on fakebook of cable scratcher run straight down from the running boards by the footwell. Or add ski scratchers. The stock ones will not do.
- a extended snowflap of some kind.
- and possibly an extended cooler in the tunnel.

Again these are not trail sleds, that is the damn reality and anyone saying otherwise is full of $hit!!! Those super cold icy mornings getting into the back country will be a challenge.

Ok ended on a sour note but those that ponied you will be super happy. Even with the first year hiccups. It will be an awesome motor and platform. And by far the best looking sled out there.

One final thought, e-start is my new best friend. Love it and could care less about the weight difference. Kicking myself for not doing it sooner. Get a light weight battery and can and let it rip!

Hope it starts dumping around here soon, we need it!!!!

 

[Old & slow]

Mine runs good also. But it had a noticeable improvement after the 3 hour mark. Crisper and snappier. Also has the reflash. I found the cooling to be manageable but you need to be aware of the conditions. We had ice for the first couple KMS and I hade no issues. The sled runs high on the gauge but that seems like that is just where it runs