850 gone down already??

[indydan]

I did a quick read over you ride report. Doesnt look like you had a bone stock 0 mile 850 in the group.
What is the point of the test if you didnt have the factory engine right next to you getting the same abuse?

You are correct i did not..... and however i would have like to but it doesn't matter at all for what i was testing.

I did....( is what i believe to be a change the motor has to have to be really dependable ) The only change i made that requires testing was the grooves i machined into the center crankcase cavity around the center seasl..., and the cylinder honing.

As far as the....
lock ring groove ( motor just needs this )
shorten rod oil fittings ( long fittings was a stupid move ) the 900 had them.
Stock head volume ( different shape ) done this many times.

I will pull this motor down after the next 3 trips and post pictures of the pistons..... by that time will have lots and lots of stock pistons to compare to.

I will aslo leak down test the motor after each trip.

My instints tell me no premix is stupid.... but i did it to maximize the torcher to the piston coating..... Mark my word by the end of the season the pistons in this motor will look amazing compared to any OEM honed cylinder by a long long ways.

And the leak down will be better.

Dan

 

[indydan]

Dan, you mentioned running no premix during your testing. What are your thoughts on premixing the 800s and 850s? Is it beneficial?

I still think premix is the way to go for the first tank... ( then a spash in every tank after that for the rest of its life. ) 200:1 to a max of 100:1

If our shop 850 was NOT going to be made an example for this thread i would have premixed it for sure...... irreguardless of what Polaris says.

I did the NO premix and WOT deal so this sled got the worse break in possible so we could see what the pistons look like.... And the way some sleds could possibly get driven like.

Like a mountain sled gets used.... Zero to WOT

Dan

 

[Detox]

next one: seized center bearing pto side(this sled suffered an unclipped pto oil line failure one day prior to this failure). both of those sleds were out of break-in mode only a few hours(oil pump). aside those failures, both sleds suffered both from center bearings being almost gone even though both center bearing being completely independently sealed from each other wich is telling me we might have a center bearing oiling problem. there absolutely no reason for the center bearing(mag side) to be that worn out on those sleds has none of them suffered mag side seizure.....so basicaly, if those 2 sleds didn't suffer those breakage, it would have been not too long befor center bearing seizure anyway....also, both of the sleds had nice and wet mag side pistons.

That's ugly

 

[indydan]

That's ugly

Exactly why i machined 2 slots past the center seals...to get more oil to the center bearings.... and insure that the cavity never over pressurizes.

Dan

 

[shattuck]

I wish Indy Dan worked for Polaris just look at all the headache they could have avoided by having someone that actually understands how to build a durable 2 stroke motor.

 

[BeartoothBaron]

I'm still riding my EDGE – they're still great sleds even if they're generally outmoded (plus they make the new sleds look like botched plastic surgery recipients). Would be fun to swap an 850 into one, but Dan's definitely right about the mounts – look at how the 800 with 30 less HP eats motor mounts. I'd find a way to make the newer mounting system work in the EDGE if I were to attempt such a swap. Not something I'd attempt unless I had a lot of time and money though. Either way, it would be cool if Polaris sold crate motors – not that we're likely to ever see that.

I think getting an 850 to run on carbs would be interesting, even if it's impractical. I wonder if the wet bottom end would improve bearing life: I think it was Dan talking earlier in this thread about how the rod bearings are basically starved for oil on a cold start. I've got plenty of experience with carburetors on sleds, cars, and trucks, and I've had few issues (once I learned to work on them). I'd say they take a more proactive approach to get peak performance and reliability, but once you take the time they're just as reliable as EFI. The biggest downside is economy – that and (more so) emissions are why they've been replaced on most sleds. Not trying to pick a bone, I just don't see where carbs are anywhere near the biggest hassle with getting my sled on the snow.

Anyway, I'm interested to hear what Dan finds from his testing. It'd be really telling to buy an identical 850 and run it bone stock for comparison, but that's asking a lot. I'd also like to know the story behind the extended WOT behavior. Maybe it's a break-in thing; if it's part of the basic program, it's the kind of thing you'd like to see explained in the owner's manual. Also, maybe getting into the weeds a little, but if you're doing a slash of pre-mix, would it make sense to run a different oil than the rest? I'm guessing synthetic either way because it'd be less likely to flash off, but just guessing. Finally, it just happens I weighed an 800 VES a month or so ago. It had the recoil, flywheel, and all on the front, mounting straps, boots and reed cages, but no clutch, y-pipe, VES assemblies, or carbs. Just a hair under 80 lbs is what I saw.

 

[indydan]

Not so fast !

I wish Indy Dan worked for Polaris just look at all the headache they could have avoided by having someone that actually understands how to build a durable 2 stroke motor.

I have been around 2 stroke Polaris motors a long time. However I am not a motor engineer.

I do appreciate your kind words, but it is very important to understand that it is very easy after a master piece has been designed to find a few flaws.

It always cracks me up after you think of something new and spend 3 days programming, fixturing, and machining.

The first person that walks by and checks it out will almost always have advice on what they would change.....most often the person that stopped to check it out with advice on changes.....

couldn't think of it
Couldn't program it
Couldn't fixture it
And couldn't machine all sides of it.

Once something is built its very easy to find upgrades to make it better.

I know I have never built something that 1/2 way thru the build I didn't already know what I would do different next time.

When I build clutch weights..... I most often have REV 1 & 2 done in my head before the one I am working on is complete.

It's important to be realistic about these type things without getting off course.

There have been many skeptics on this thread ( and I understand that ) skeptics are very important.

There has been many nice things said about me in this thread and I truely appreciate all of them.

Many of them come with far to much credit... I Have made my share of mistakes.

At any rate it's been kind of fun getting back on here with a new motor from Polaris.

It's good for the brain.

Dan

 

[indydan]

Finally, it just happens I weighed an 800 VES a month or so ago. It had the recoil, flywheel, and all on the front, mounting straps, boots and reed cages, but no clutch, y-pipe, VES assemblies, or carbs. Just a hair under 80 lbs is what I saw.

Oh my !! I am going to have to do a re-weigh!!

I'll have to see what happened.... It was a quick weigh but it was what I remembered from 1996 when I weighed the 680 untra against the 700 big block.

I and I thought I remember them being close to the same so I figured I had the scale ( teared )

I will double check it

Thanks for the heads up.

And your are correct the old edges are still great ! I guess I just know if it was up to those sleds Indy Specialty would be getting smaller so it wasn't fair to push them aside.

I built my last shop off the Gen 2 & the edge

Dan

 

[Nanner]

View attachment 299107

Exactly why i machined 2 slots past the center seals...to get more oil to the center bearings.... and insure that the cavity never over pressurizes.

Dan

I think the center bearings are going to be the biggest issue and might not start showing up until miles start getting put on. It might not happen the first year but I don’t think they’re going to make it through the 4 year warranty. Those bearings look to be really close to the web and completely covered on the side. I just can’t imangine them getting oil or marginal at best. Cat at least has holes coming from the top half of the case into a hole in the bearing. The ctec crank also looks like part of the bearing is exposed from the web so oil can get in easier. But then again I’m no engineer either.

 

[summ8rmk]

^ agreed

[emoji12]

 

[Devilmanak]

Local dealer was allocated 20 850 sleds. They have two engines in boxes on the floor now. One a local sale, another from WA. One the bearing slid over and hit the crank. The other was a center bearing gone down.
There is a new procedure for rebuilding (from Poo), to use Loctite to secure the bearing to the cases, to keep it from moving. Not sure which Loctite, but supposed to be badass stuff. Seems like gluing a bearing to keep it in place is a bandaid, betcha next year's 850 sleds have a mechanical fix. Just sayin...

 

[summ8rmk]

Local dealer was allocated 20 850 sleds. They have two engines in boxes on the floor now. One a local sale, another from WA. One the bearing slid over and hit the crank. The other was a center bearing gone down.

There is a new procedure for rebuilding (from Poo), to use Loctite to secure the bearing to the cases, to keep it from moving. Not sure which Loctite, but supposed to be badass stuff. Seems like gluing a bearing to keep it in place is a bandaid, betcha next year's 850 sleds have a mechanical fix. Just sayin...

Idk? Loctite may be permanent.....
They're still using the clamp on the driveshaft....[emoji37]

[emoji12]

 

[john6719]

Local dealer was allocated 20 850 sleds. They have two engines in boxes on the floor now. One a local sale, another from WA. One the bearing slid over and hit the crank. The other was a center bearing gone down.
There is a new procedure for rebuilding (from Poo), to use Loctite to secure the bearing to the cases, to keep it from moving. Not sure which Loctite, but supposed to be badass stuff. Seems like gluing a bearing to keep it in place is a bandaid, betcha next year's 850 sleds have a mechanical fix. Just sayin...

Loctite is a bandaid. Wasted 6 months and hundreds of thousands of dollars arguing that with an engineer... in the end, we had a mechanically locked race...and still do to this day many years later.

 

[simnil]

Idk? Loctite may be permanent.....
They're still using the clamp on the driveshaft....[emoji37]

[emoji12]

If you ever consider putting Loctite 638 on something make very sure you will not have to remove it again! That stuff is not your average "glue".

Might even be that the next time the engine is torn down the case halves will be "impossible", (read very hard), to separate if the outer race is glued to both case halves using 638 or eq.

 

[BeartoothBaron]

Oh my !! I am going to have to do a re-weigh!!

I'll have to see what happened.... It was a quick weigh but it was what I remembered from 1996 when I weighed the 680 untra against the 700 big block.

I and I thought I remember them being close to the same so I figured I had the scale ( teared )

I will double check it

Thanks for the heads up.

And your are correct the old edges are still great ! I guess I just know if it was up to those sleds Indy Specialty would be getting smaller so it wasn't fair to push them aside.

I built my last shop off the Gen 2 & the edge

Dan

Oh, not trying to call you out at all – could that weight have been with the clutch? With the VES valves, carbs, and Y-pipe, I'd guess around 90? No question that the old big block is significantly heavier, and 71 lb for the 850 is pretty impressive. Even if it's only 15lb lighter, that's significant; if it's 30, that's losing a big chunk of iron.

Glad you haven't forgotten the old sleds, but I can't deny you'd be out of business if that's all you worked on. Oh well, it seems that for better or worse, Polaris is doing a good job of keeping you in the game!

 

[Mafesto]

If you ever consider putting Loctite 638 on something make very sure you will not have to remove it again! That stuff is not your average "glue".

Might even be that the next time the engine is torn down the case halves will be "impossible", (read very hard), to separate if the outer race is glued to both case halves using 638 or eq.

Was thinking the same thing.
I would hope that they would have the foresight to apply to only the lower half.

 

[PaulAnd]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[indydan]

Loctite

If this is a true story from Polaris.......its proof they screwed up.

And I would NOT Loctite a bearing in a crankcase other then an absolute last resort.

And NEVER both sides.

Why don't they just fix it the right way?........ I know why.... BEAN COUNTERS !!

Dan

 

[JJ_0909]

If this is a true story from Polaris.......its proof they screwed.

And I would NOT Loctite a bearing in a crankcase other then an absolute last resort.

And NEVER both sides.

Why don't they just fix it the right way?........ I know why.... BEAN COUNTERS !!

Dan

cognitive bias. Just my guess.

 

[BILTIT]

Oh, not trying to call you out at all – could that weight have been with the clutch? With the VES valves, carbs, and Y-pipe, I'd guess around 90? No question that the old big block is significantly heavier, and 71 lb for the 850 is pretty impressive. Even if it's only 15lb lighter, that's significant; if it's 30, that's losing a big chunk of iron.



Glad you haven't forgotten the old sleds, but I can't deny you'd be out of business if that's all you worked on. Oh well, it seems that for better or worse, Polaris is doing a good job of keeping you in the game!

15-30lbs of the front of my 121" would make a world of difference for sure. Its already a wheelie machine though so it would get worse in that respect.

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