850 gone down already??

[indydan]

So I was wrong..... At 10.7 hours on my 850 The PTO oil line did not pop off. The oil line that feeds the water pump cavity popped off. I was able to personally inspect the crank bearings and other engine internals at the dealership, and was happy with how the bearings felt and top end looked. Still no difinive answer as to why the cavity built pressure and blew the line off. Dealer tested both entry and exit check valves, and both flowed freely. No evidence of excess sealant inthe cavity.... We do not have Polaris marching orders yet as to how to procede. I will update once a proposed solution arises. EDIT: The waterpump cavity was full of injector oil upon dis assembly according to the dealer.

I believe the biggest mistake Polaris has made on the 850 is sealing up the center section & putting a banjo fitting in the upper case half.... I know they were trying to make the oil level deeper then the bottom of the center bearing mag drain..... and figured it was better to fill the center.

As I believe it wasn’t bad thinking.....but 2 big mistakes were made in doing this.

#1 - switching the center seals from ( inside the bearing ) on the outward side of the center bearing. ( in other words.... a sealed bearing ). To a non-sealed bearing and putting the seal inward of the center bearings.

#2 - using a banjo fitting as the cavity drain in the top.

2 - big dependability risks here....

#1 - the oil pump pumping against a check valve with a tiny hole easily plugged with a gear wear or case sealer.

#2 - center bearings that no longer use center gear cavity oil to lube the center bearings ( center bearing now depend on oil from inside the rod cavity ) around the crank wheel... and with crankshaft wind and centrifugal force makes it really hard for those 2 bearings to get oil.

So what I did might go strongly against an engineers line of thinking...

I put the upper case half in the mill and programmed a set of grooves past both inner crank seals... which some might think creates short circuit to both cylinders destroying the integrity of sealing the cylinders from themselves.

Not the case at all.... as matter of fact what I did is the single biggest fix to extended center bearing life and PTO rod bearing life.

2 examples to think about .

1- a utility trailer with a rear loading ramp made with expanded metal, chicken wire, or lots of slots for the air to past thru.

At high freeway speeds the holes basically almost completely go away.... if you think I am kindling.... go on a 200 mile trip at 75 mph with a V6 SUV and check your mileage..... then take the ramp off and try it.

2 - the center is ( Full ) of oil and it has hydro lock protection.

So it doesn’t mater if you tie them together..... as a matter a fact there is no down side.... it’s all plus’s. ( granted they have to be the correct size )

The groves are at the very top... and they create a positive drain to both center bearings and both cylinders ..... ( instead of JUST to the mag cylinder) and no oil to either center bearing.

This small little trick insures the center oilline will never over pressurize and pop off.

Dan

 

[509_Colton]

Talked to the service manager at my local dealer saturday when i was picking up my new 2018 800 163. Know him since i was born (literally one of my dads best friend). Said they sold around 30 850s. They have lost 3. All within the first 3 hours due to bearing touching crank. Seen two of the motors on the bench ready too go in .He believes they were touching on assemble. Just shareing info.

 

[brett soluk]

250 miles/15hrs oil line to water pump popped off. Wait and see what Polaris has to say. Still my favourite sled I’ve ever owned. Power is so strong.

 

[ntm_08]

Well people, I have not had time to do any catch up reading but thought I would throw out a post before I do some reading.

Took the new 850 with zero miles we had the motor out of and did all the updates.

What was done to the motor.

#1 - HG7 polish honed the cylinder ( stock OEM pistons )
#2 - lock ringed the PTO BEARING
#3 - machined 2 grooves into the upper case half @ the 12 o clock location ( this eliminates any chance of the banjo fitting plugging with silicone, also oils the * both * center bearings with oil exactly where they need it )
#4- shorten rod banjo fittings.
#5- installed our billet head ( stock size hemi domes ) never detonated
#6 - also had our heaviest Billet clutch cover ( with no holes ) on the sled.

Ok it was really really warm out ( 35 to 45 degrees ) in the middle of the day.

( fuel used ) - pump premium with NO premix. ( gold ves oil )

I unloaded the sled at Lakewoods early morning before everyone was ready..... when I got on the lake 100 feet away
I held the sled Wide Open throttle for at least 1 mile without letting off.

The sled went to 95 miles per hour and nosed over like I hit the choke..... I never let off. It then sat at about 75 miles per hour till I let off.

So for the next 30 miles I ran in the shoreline powder maybe 8 inches deep. And ran the throttle all over the place and circled the lake 90% of the time I had the throttle wide open let off when it nosed over just so it would come back.

I was trying to blow it up. I found out the sled acts like **** for exactly 2 hours....... ( went and refilled the sled ) it used exactly 5 gallons in 30miles... then I held it wide open on the lake and it went 105 I held it for almost 2 miles. (It does a few weird things during extended full throttle ) almost like it resets for a sec .... noses over @105 and will not go past that.

Does weird cutting out ( seems like by design )

I had the sled WOT every chance I got.

At 2 hours the fuel cunsumption fuel mileage over tripled and the sled got the best mileage in the group.

Day 2 more of the same except the sled went 107......

Mid range power is pretty impressive..... 12 sleds in the group almost all 800 Polaris axys’s Sleds

At a dead stop or rolling the 800’ s do not really have a chance the 850 literally drives awayfrom them all with easy by a long long ways.

I heard the sled needs 10 hours to get past double oil.... and it DRINKS OIL ! Used over twice as much as anyone else.

I was just short of 10 hours on the motor and never got to see what it was like on top end speed with normal oil delivery.

What is my opinion of the 2019 850 Indy 129 ...... ?

I love it !
It pulls your arms really really hard
Way smoother then an 800 motor with the light weight crank.
Runability after 2 hours was pretty darn good ... I expect the after 10 hours performance to even better.
Sled ran cooler then all other sleds in the group except one ( and that was a 2016 PROX 800 with a Ride cool head with the bigger thermostat )

That sled ran just over 100 degrees and the 850 ran 108 to 111most of the time.

Almost all other sleds were running 130 plus...... unless idling or on super hard pack / dirt trails.

I really tried to hurt the motor with the changes we made to see if there was a weak link.

I see this motor being a real leader in both mountain and trail. I really do love the motor.

This was the maiden voyage.... we have 3 more trips planned in the very near future those will be alot more miles. With lots
Of high speed running.

We will do a cylinder leak down after each trip.


Dan

Sounds like a nice trip! Why do you think the engine is the real leader in both classes? Does it have more power? Better response? Better fuel mileage? Smoother characteristic? Against the 800ctec or Doo 850?

 

[indydan]

Sounds like a nice trip! Why do you think the engine is the real leader in both classes? Does it have more power? Better response? Better fuel mileage? Smoother characteristic? Against the 800ctec or Doo 850?

The main reason like it for the RMK is because of crankshaft length ( they added width between the cylinders without makin* the crankshaft wider ). They robbed
Length from the mag crank end and put it in the center to gain the power without losing * flick ability *

The bueaty of this motor is the wide center to center distance while maintaining
A relatively short crankshaft. ( and flickabilty is all about crankshaft length )

I like the motor mounting
I like the charging system for a magneto ( alternator is not far away )
I like the 6 bolt cylinder design ( pretty much a SKI DOO copy ) 8 bolts just doesn’t work for big power in a motor this short. ( better water flow around exhaust )
It will be hard To compete with in the handling area because The motor is so short.

It has more torque and horse power @ 840 cc’s then the 800 small block would have @ 850 or even 900cc’s both motors are poor big bore candidates the math on crank length just makes it very impractical. Low-end torque will go up a little.... and both operating RPM torque and horse power will stay about the same.

I think it’s the most impressive 40cc gain I have ever seen in a Polaris motor.

I think it is mathematically just better then the small block..... and the Small block is no slouch in stock form.

The axys 800 has really turn into a great motor other then the mounting system.

It would really be nice if Polaris would focus on adjustable motor mounts so you can put the center to center distance where it’s suppose to be in relation to belt length..... instead of always to long in relation to the belt length.

And one last wish for me.... I would like to see a new drive clutch that is a little heavier and more on the lines of the new TEAM drive clutch on the Cat....... ( and that TEAM clutch needs a few changes also. ) but it was a step in the right direction.

I really like the bearing..... even though it can cause some summer storage problems.

The current design does not have enough flywheel effect since 2015 when the light weight crankshaft showed up.

Light weight cranks and light weight drive clutches are a bad combo ( the clutch wear since 2015 AXYS has doubled. )

Yes..... doubled. The drive clutch needs service or replacement over twice as fast has the pre-light weight crank motors.

Dan

 

[BILTIT]

So a lightweight crank is not really an upgrade for the pre-15' 800s?

If everything you say about it is true, it would be nice to see this motor mounted in past 800's chassis. From what i hear this is not possible without a huge amount of work, correct? Maybe an economical retrofit kit is worth looking into?

Lastly, can this 840 be run with carbs?

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[Type Z]

So a lightweight crank is not really an upgrade for the pre-15' 800s?

If everything you say about it is true, it would be nice to see this motor mounted in past 800's chassis. From what i hear this is not possible without a huge amount of work, correct? Maybe an economical retrofit kit is worth looking into?

Lastly, can this 840 be run with carbs?

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lightweignt crank is an uprade if you can keep the same volume..check 600rs sleds...

 

[BILTIT]

What I am hearing is that it is an upgrade that is twice as hard on primary clutches, so pick your poison. Good in one way but pretty bad in another.


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[indydan]

What I am hearing is that it is an upgrade that is twice as hard on primary clutches, so pick your poison. Good in one way but pretty bad in another.


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Exactly correct.... Pick your poison.

The light weight crank is a throttle response performance upgrade.

However it is NOT a durability upgrade by any means..... it is the opossite of that..... its a clutch eater

The reason we build a huge billet clutch cover is because the clutch last much longer with the heavier cover it just doesn't look as cool.

The 850 mounted like the 800 would be a train wreck.

The 800 could be made to fit the new chassis but it would be a big project to do it correctly..... and pretty impractical.

The 850 chassis fixed alot of bad mounting problems.

I would NEVER want to see carbs put on any motor !! Last resort !!

Dan

 

[BILTIT]

I just think it would be easier to put the 850 with carbs into my 04 edge chassis vs an 850 with efi. What is the weight of this 850 vs old 800bb?

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[indydan]

I just think it would be easier to put the 850 with carbs into my 04 edge chassis vs an 850 with efi. What is the weight of this 850 vs old 800bb?

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The 850 motor is between 20 and 30 pounds lighter then the old Big Block in full dress.

I would make the EFI work..... i hope i never see another carburator.

I would quit snowmobiling if i had to drive a carb sled.

it would be a strange retro.... the 850 was designed to be hung from the sides of the motor.
and the Big Block is a bottom mount so botrh ways is a train wreck.

But anything is possible in an Edge chassis since its so big........But its also a out dated unit by todays standards.

Dan

 

[BILTIT]

Lol, i have zero complaints about my carbd 910bb other than fuel mileage. Starts better than my efi actually. Yes the edge is outdated for sure, just not sure a newer chassis could handle what i put the 04 pro-xr through. Its a beast, takes punishment and easy to work on.

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[Tmac800]

I am willing to make a bet with you......to see who is right.

I have zero to gain by scaring anyone.

I have more work then we can handle for the next 3 months.

7 guys and the shops to small........are you deaf ? i said we can't hardly keep are heads above water now.

Trying to stay out of trouble on social media what we are trying is Warp speed processing of orders people still get pissed from time to time ( when someone slips thru the cracks. )

I'll make a forum statement and a dare....

Find 2 guys that have 850 sleds ( That ride 3000 plus miles per season )

Leave one completely stock, and i'll hone the other one and we will soon see who is correct.

You see you think you're right..... I know i am right. I have seen this same program and its still fresh in my mind from the few hundred grand i lost.

It really doesn't matter if God himself plated all the 850 cylinders... its who honed them and what state ( condition ) the super abrasives are in.

New stones.....? broke in stones to full contact radius.....? Honing oil ? grit ? finishers ? how many finishers ?

From what i have seen....This is a full blow honing emergency.

Pick 2 guys and we will have a little gentalmens bet.....

My guess is this...........the OEM cylinder won't make 1/2 season and the one i hone will just make it at least 3 seasons.

My vote for one tester is TRS Tony ( 4000 plus miles per season in the mountains )

He makes a career out of ruining Polaris OEM motors... namely pistons.

Tell me what i gain by fear mongering ?

The motors are under warranty for 4 years.... that means NO ONE should be touching then until 2023

The guys that have seen this problem are already sending them here for honing.

Its not exciting its ****ty work and very time consuming to process.

When OEM's start talking ( special break-in proceedure ) you better grab your ass because the trouble is coming.

And whoever wrote the new Polaris break-in update proceedure is nuts !!

Ok.... lets NOT put oil in the fuel.... then lets make its as rich as possible by putting it in ethanal mode.... ( and wash the oil off the cylinders excess fuel )

That's Brilliant..... What should be done is this.

Correct plateau finished cylinder ( just slightly rich fuel delivery for one tank of pre-mix only ) just to insure oil pump is all primed.

Then the sled should go to stock fuel delivery with no oil in fuel, oil pump 5% above normal for 150 miles then away you go.

Cast iron rings do NOT break in silicon carbide cylinders...... silicon carbide cylinder destroy everything except diamond.

They do however wear out diamond over time..... ( the Nicasil cylinders actually wear the diamond shoes )

So your post is heart warming to call off the pressure on what polaris will soon feel. ( if the cylinders are all this rough )

We will all soon see who is right or wrong.......I am praying for a HUGE snow fall winter.

If it snows there better be a huge stock of 850 pistons.

I own a new 850 i was hpoing to NOT touch the first year, this shop has 2 of them.

Dan

my money is on Indy Dan !!! I went thru hell with my 2012 800 Pro R and multiple junk OEM engines blowing up 3 seasons in a row and I was thinking about saying the hell with snowmobiles then I bought an Indy Specialty 800 Long Rod motor and I have over 6000 trouble free miles on it and looking forward to another great year on the snow. Terry Mc.

 

[indydan]

Lol, i have zero complaints about my carbd 910bb other than fuel mileage. Starts better than my efi actually. Yes the edge is outdated for sure, just not sure a newer chassis could handle what i put the 04 pro-xr through. Its a beast, takes punishment and easy to work on.

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OHHHHHH !! i HEAR YOU LOUD AND CLEAR ON THAT MOTOR.

The 910 Big Block Carls motor is a real sweetheart !! and its a tuff chassis !

Dan

 

[TRS]

The 850 motor is between 20 and 30 pounds lighter then the old Big Block in full dress.

I would make the EFI work..... i hope i never see another carburator.

I would quit snowmobiling if i had to drive a carb sled.

it would be a strange retro.... the 850 was designed to be hung from the sides of the motor.
and the Big Block is a bottom mount so botrh ways is a train wreck.

But anything is possible in an Edge chassis since its so big........But its also a out dated unit by todays standards.

Dan

Bet you a hamburger thats false news.

 

[indydan]

Bet you a hamburger thats false news.

Its possible you're right !!

You want a double 1/4 lB-'der with cheese ?

We deliver to Mountain Cabins

Dan

 

[NEWDUCK]

I did a quick read over you ride report. Doesnt look like you had a bone stock 0 mile 850 in the group.
What is the point of the test if you didnt have the factory engine right next to you getting the same abuse?

 

[BigAir]

Dan, you mentioned running no premix during your testing. What are your thoughts on premixing the 800s and 850s? Is it beneficial?

 

[indydan]

opps !!

Maybe i am right ??

Just weighed a full dressed 700 Big Block, carbs, valves and recoil with motor plate.

104.5

I have a new 850 here with stator, flywheel, all motor mounts installed
only thing missing is the recoil, exhaust valves, reeds and throttle bodies. and injectors.

71.5 pounds.

My guess is.... Its going to be damn close to 25 pounds lighter when full dress to full dress.

Just a guess i could be all wet on this one.

The 850 really isn't much different then the small block for weight. my guess is 5 to 7 pounds max..... closer to 5

Its going to be a while before i get a full dress 850 unitl we pull Devins 174 850 down maybe next week or the week after.

Dan

 

[BILTIT]

So the next logical question for my situation. Whats your comparison in power of carls 910bb vs the new 850. Anyway to test that out?


Because i know you have nothing better to be doing lol.

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