850 gone down already??
- Thread starter ANTHONY11
- Start date
Couple questions? We’ve all heard about the pto bearing and oil line along with center bearings and oil line coming off. I don’t buy the sealant excuse plugging either squirter. Both are far from the case halves. The middle port looks to come out way down low by the water pump gear. It even look like it’s kind of hidden in the case. I find it really hard to believe that case sealant is getting down there and plugging it. Is there a seal on both sides between the worm gear and bearings. If so how is the oil getting out of there. Could it be filling up with oil causing to much back pressure and popping the oil line off. And if this is true how in the hell did polaris expect oil to get in those bearings. They look to be really close and blocked off by the crank web.
Dan, would an improperly set PTO bearing effect runout, and\or would it be worth measuring as an indicator or more imminent failure?
My Axys 800ho wasn't a great sled. 2 primary rebuilds, one primary failure that almost had me walking off the hill, blown motor at 1100 miles, broken PV cable, broken this and that on the sled.
My personal experience was not as positive as yours....
Damn Big10........ I think you are still bitter about your Polaris experience. That is absolutely your right to be bitter and switch brands--which you did. Stoked you are happy with Cat.
BUT... you are now basically trolling in the Polaris section. You don't own an 850 and you haven't been around one that went down. You (understandably) have no desire to buy another Polaris currently...... so why exactly are you so interested in this thread or the Polaris section in general?
If those of us in the Polaris section choose to ride Polaris, that's our choice. If we leave them stock, or have Indy Specialty (or any other shop) do work to them, that's our choice. You have the right to your opinion, but if you come in the Polaris section and do nothing but bash Polaris and Polaris purchasers..... expect to be MODERATED.
Moderate away... Not the first time for me.
Obviously there are some that consider it trolling BUT, when I log in and have 18 thanks listed, somebody is appreciating my posts more than you. At the end of the day it IS a discussion forum and I have been doing just that. I do not see where it has turned into a bash fest or a bunch of name calling. I know the truth hurts at times and maybe that is what you are trying to avoid here but, I am not sure your post has deterred me from continuing to comment on MY Polaris experiences.
I don't have any problems with Big10inch being here. I has experience with Poo and seems to be honest about Poo. He has been honest about Cat. I believe he would rather be on a Poo if he would not get burned by it. At least he isn't bashing a brand he has never owned or will ever own.
Of course today I will get a chance to try out my buddies new Alpha in some pretty epic conditions. I may just fit may brand loyal blinders on after that...LOL
...and don't think for a second that I don't rub the Doo guys noses in it when appropriate. They get REALLY testy when you question their loyalty.
Best of luck with this first run of 850's. Hopefully Polaris fixes the issues and takes care of its current customers. The thing that really gets me though is how many times they have let consumers down on first year offerings. You can predict first year engine failures at Polaris as reliably as the sun rising in the morning.
Nice mess.. Thanks for taking the time to update the doomed...
Was this a mix of sleds? trail and Mtn?
both of those sled looks like the center bearing are almost gone(they roll realy rough)and it ain't the cause of failure(one has a seized piston pto side and the other one had a seized pto bearing(no the oil fitting wasn't blocked or anything like that). both warranty claims was approuved and parts and engine assembly expedited right away. i trust Polaris will react, find the problem and solve the issues quickly. more on this later since we have another 2 sleds to open today.
we are here at 300 feet elevation and we go from 300 to 3300 feet. All sleds are rmk's driven a mostly off trail.
What was the build date on those two engines?
Should probably mention the 3 lower a-arms that folded like pretzels too, what a STUPID design that was.
thanks
Thanks for the updates. Looks like one piston seized on exhaust side and other intake? Also looks like the one you showed had the updated crank seal? Is polaris sending you new engines to replace or just parts? Most dealers are not crazy about doing warranty work because of reduced labor rate. Kudos to you for getting on them right away. I wish we could keep this a informative thread as you have. To the others out here stop the bickering please. This thread could be a 2/3 shorter if we cut out the non sense.
Thanks for the updates. Looks like one piston seized on exhaust side and other intake? Also looks like the one you showed had the updated crank seal? Is polaris sending you new engines to replace or just parts? Most dealers are not crazy about doing warranty work because of reduced labor rate. Kudos to you for getting on them right away. I wish we could keep this a informative thread as you have. To the others out here stop the bickering please. This thread could be a 2/3 shorter if we cut out the non sense.
Hopefully the new motors they are supplying already have the required fix to the problem or they will grenade again..
The real root cause
Guys, you’ll see I’m new to this forum. I’m not a hater/basher. I’m very interested in this new Patriot 850, and want it to succeed in the worst way! I do ride a 2017 doo 850 with 2700 flawless miles, so I’m not lamenting a poor design, just out riding! I’m an R&D engineer that has been working 35 years, and I live in Minnesota, just 10 miles from Polaris’ snowmobile R&D center in Wyoming MN. I want Poo (and Cat) which are Minnesota companies to succeed. And I’d love to find a reason to justify throwing down better than $13k on an Assault 850, but I can’t for the following reason: Polaris R&D leadership has not invested in R&D excellence programs there. From what I know, they are not a strong system thinking company. As a general rule, Mechanical engineers don’t talk to Electrical engineers, etc. Systems and Reliability engineering is a weak practice at best. There are obviously very talented engineers that work at Polaris, but they also need continuing education on engineering best practice, standard engineering practice, etc. From what I know for example, tolerance analysis using Monte Carlo doesn’t happen....Really? No wonder press/friction fit (horrible and non-robust design engineering) crank bearings are “walking” into the crank webs. Duh. The fix for this will take a whole year at best. Then, on the manufacturing side, they don’t know how much sealer to put on the engine halves? Come on Polaris. In contrast, and the main reason I buy skidoo with my hard earned money, is that they have had Six Sigma/Design for Six Sigma design and ops excellence there since the late 90’s when the first real sled of theirs to enjoy the benefits of such engineering, the sled that changed it all, the 2003 REV MXZX 800. Then, Doos innovation leadership, where most follow (REV, e-tec, R-motion, Linq, Shot, handwarmers that work, 850, quick adjust riser, etc.). Anyway, there are many aspect of these design excellence initiatives that aren’t mentioned (doing good “voice of customer”, concept engineering, design capability, robust design, design for manufacturability & assembly and control to name a few). And skidoo isn’t bullet proof because of this, but it’s the culture of continuous design excellence improvement (that is absent at Poo) that is the real issue at Polaris. Until then, you’ll continue to have ATV’s catching on fire, engine problems across the line, “reliability kits”, etc.
I also notice that from reading the service contract, you guys are only obligated to get repairs up to the MSRP of your sled. So, lets assume an engine is about $3.5-4k plus labor. You essentially are entitled to 2, maybe 3 engines at most. But if there is no known, long term fix at Poo for the 850 Patriot, you’ll just keep blowing engines.. I hope Polaris will come out of this ok. But this will take a lot of “withdrawals” from the trust accounts of their loyalists, let alone their warranty account. Then, maybe then, if they survive, Polaris management will start design excellence programs...
Guys, you’ll see I’m new to this forum. I’m not a hater/basher. I’m very interested in this new Patriot 850, and want it to succeed in the worst way! I do ride a 2017 doo 850 with 2700 flawless miles, so I’m not lamenting a poor design, just out riding! I’m an R&D engineer that has been working 35 years, and I live in Minnesota, just 10 miles from Polaris’ snowmobile R&D center in Wyoming MN. I want Poo (and Cat) which are Minnesota companies to succeed. And I’d love to find a reason to justify throwing down better than $13k on an Assault 850, but I can’t for the following reason: Polaris R&D leadership has not invested in R&D excellence programs there. From what I know, they are not a strong system thinking company. As a general rule, Mechanical engineers don’t talk to Electrical engineers, etc. Systems and Reliability engineering is a weak practice at best. There are obviously very talented engineers that work at Polaris, but they also need continuing education on engineering best practice, standard engineering practice, etc. From what I know for example, tolerance analysis using Monte Carlo doesn’t happen....Really? No wonder press/friction fit (horrible and non-robust design engineering) crank bearings are “walking” into the crank webs. Duh. The fix for this will take a whole year at best. Then, on the manufacturing side, they don’t know how much sealer to put on the engine halves? Come on Polaris. In contrast, and the main reason I buy skidoo with my hard earned money, is that they have had Six Sigma/Design for Six Sigma design and ops excellence there since the late 90’s when the first real sled of theirs to enjoy the benefits of such engineering, the sled that changed it all, the 2003 REV MXZX 800. Then, Doos innovation leadership, where most follow (REV, e-tec, R-motion, Linq, Shot, handwarmers that work, 850, quick adjust riser, etc.). Anyway, there are many aspect of these design excellence initiatives that aren’t mentioned (doing good “voice of customer”, concept engineering, design capability, robust design, design for manufacturability & assembly and control to name a few). And skidoo isn’t bullet proof because of this, but it’s the culture of continuous design excellence improvement (that is absent at Poo) that is the real issue at Polaris. Until then, you’ll continue to have ATV’s catching on fire, engine problems across the line, “reliability kits”, etc.
I also notice that from reading the service contract, you guys are only obligated to get repairs up to the MSRP of your sled. So, lets assume an engine is about $3.5-4k plus labor. You essentially are entitled to 2, maybe 3 engines at most. But if there is no known, long term fix at Poo for the 850 Patriot, you’ll just keep blowing engines.. I hope Polaris will come out of this ok. But this will take a lot of “withdrawals” from the trust accounts of their loyalists, let alone their warranty account. Then, maybe then, if they survive, Polaris management will start design excellence programs...
one sled locked the 4 corners of the pto piston and the other one a seized pto bearing. both sleds have the newly design crank seal
J
JJ_0909
ACCOUNT CLOSED
Good color.
However, it is a bit shortsited to assume Ski-Doo's culture is such they don't have problems too. Having owned a Ski-Doo 850 I can tell you it isn't a marvel of engineering in everyway (clutch design, clutch heat, weight distribution, torsion bar skid, crank failure relatively high etc).
I feel all three companies could do a better job of establishing more "real world" engineering feedback loops throughout the design process.
Part of the problem however is this idea the "juice isn't worth the squeeze". This isn't Ferrari. Resources are limited.
Obviously mistakes were made, and they appear to be rather large. It also seems to be less of a design flaw, more of a manufacturing issue. Bummer.
This is another part of your claim I simply don't buy. This fix seems relatively easy, as Indy Dan has already illustrated. Once that is done, it seems pretty likely this motor will work well. To add, there is likely a good chance all the crankshaft bearings will not walk in the case. Those that do, it's going to suck. And you are right, they are testing customer's loyalty.
Overall however, this stuff *does* happen, and has happened with all three brands over the years.
There should be a little shakeup over at Polaris. I hope there is. There are better practices that should be utilized. But don't assume every other company is somehow "doing it right". I've seen first hand they aren't.
EDIT: What I'm also trying to illustrate is Polaris has a problem that is more on the assembly line (which is a big deal, but easy to remedy). Not something that is intrinsic to the design of the motor. They did the hard stuff right, or so it seems, and overlooked what is literally a $1.00 fix. That makes me feel a little better. It also makes me think so long as a fix has been instituted on the motors they are sending out, the likelihood of needing them replaced (and replaced) is low. Compare this to Ski-Doo's 850 clutch design that seems to have an inherent design flaw (can cook an egg on that thing regardless of how you set it up) and I think you see what I'm trying to say.
J
JJ_0909
ACCOUNT CLOSED
Um, ya might not want to use Ferrari as the example...I've worked on a LOT of thoselmao but point well taken
(could not resist)
Good point. They are finicky as could be huh?
Honda? Toyota?
2/3 of my fleet is SkiDoo's... I wish I could be as enthusiastic as you about their quality control and design excellence. The 2007 800R motors were as big of a disaster as this 850 might turn out to be. I haven't taken one apart yet that had a good crank. Clutching and bulk head strength issues on the 2017 850 'Doo was another disaster. I will admit that the 800 ETec is a pretty reliable motor compared to the same generation Polaris 800's. I have a couple 2003 Polaris 700's that have been bomb proof compared to anything I have owned since. My 2010 Arctic Cat 1100 Bearcat has also been ultra reliable. All of the big three can build quality machines if they put their mind and resources behind it.
The only reason I am in this thread is that it is time for a new mountain machine for me. The handling of the Axys chassis is far better than the new Doo's in my opinion (even though the Gen 4 is far above the XM), but the new Alpha has caught my eye as well. Right now, I'm seriously considering an 800 Axys if Polaris keeps making them in 2020.
I'm keeping an eye on a couple local turbo'd 850 Polaris sleds. One is owned by a performance shop owner that I trust. He rides it hard (is probably reading this thread too) and if it lives through this season I'll seriously consider one.
