850 gone down already??

[cvcustoms]

850 Blown Up Already??

I will start off by saying that I agree with Dan 100% on the above issues. The first thing I do when I get any snowmobile is take the clutches off and send them to him to get machined and balanced because his work is top notch. I also have one of this long rod motors, it also happens to be one that he had his issues with, the motor has run 4 years now and is starting to fade. Called them up and they told me to send it in to get fixed. Top Notch Customer Service. I doubt any other company can compete. I am also a person that if/when my motor goes it will not be under warranty anymore due to un-naturally aspirated modifications and I am also not the type of person that will take those modifications off and say it is stock, so it will ultimately end up being refreshed with a Indy Specialties built engine. I don’t live in the mountains and when I get the few weeks are year to go ride in them I don’t want to have my snowmobiles sitting at the dealer waiting for warranty work. Plus I don’t really trust to many dealers in my area to work on my stuff...

Hopefully Polaris can react, man up and fix the issues. The standards that Indy Specialties builds to are something that you will never see from and of the Big 4 manufactures. Would it be possible for them to do so, absolutely, but the human element is always there, disgruntled employee purposely sabotaging a product, missed quality checks, Mondays... the list goes on. The honing of the cylinders in my view is a pure mass production vs quality issue that most likely ended up at a bean counters desk. The PTO bearing floating is a pure design flaw that they needs to addressed. I like that Indy Specialties put up pictures last night and its working in a solution, Thank You. One other observation that I personally don’t like about the 850 PTO setup is that there is not metal cover over the seal like on the 800... Hopefully it is strong enough to hold back a belt that decides to let go...

The only thing that I would like to say is that Polaris does have some really good engineers. I know/went to school with some of them both in the snow and off road divisions. The group I know there are intelligent, have common sense (a lost trait now days) and are great down to earth people that share the same passions for the sports that many of us on here do. I 100% trust them to design a good product and if they had it there way you wouldn’t see these issues, but the other side to engineering is production, marketing, and profit...That is why we see these types of issues.

I also don’t think Polaris was ready to produce the volume of 850 engines that they did this year. When a dealer sold out of there allotment Polaris ended up giving them a few more and a few more... which most likely caused the delays in shipments that are being experienced.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[ADDIE]

Following this thread just out of curiosity but thought I would chime in with a remotely connected thought.

I for one doesn't doubt Dan when he says he knows more than the engine engineers at Polaris regarding for example surface texture in coated cylinders, this since he has probably been doing this for more than twice as long as the engineers at Polaris, (or any other OEM for that matter).
The reason for this is that in these big companies the personell move around a lot, an engineer needs to be really special, (perhaps in more ways than one), to be kept, or left, at one place for more than a few years. I'm in engineering and I work for a small company that has a lot of really big companies as customers, and we see this a lot. A customer develops a new product, uses our component, has some initial adjustment problems but eventually sorts everything out. A few years later the same customer develops the new generation of product, all of the previous lot of engineers has moved along to new positions, and the new lot almost with 100% certainty repeats the mistakes that were made before, because to them they are new mistakes.

While Dan may know more a about some things than some Polaris engineers, the castings and plating is not done at Polaris or spec'd by Polaris. The plating company is one of the largest in the world, and I would suspect has more experience than Dan ( I know hard to believe anybody has more experience than Dan)
I know a bit about this plating house and have met the owner and spoke with him at length.
If Polaris was doing all the plating in house, then that would be a cause for concern for sure. They are not doing it in house and have contracted a very good company for this operation. Hence, another reason why the plating is very good on this cylinder.

 

[Scott]

The way you are describing it sounds pretty close to what I've been hearing.
The sleds that are reportedly going down due to a bottom end issue sound like it's because of an assembly line issue procedure, not a design issue.

If they have 4 or 5 or even 25 that go gone down with this issue, it's a pretty small number (though ZERO is the preferred number) out of the nearly 10,000 850 snowcheck orders.

I'm guessing if those are the numbers, it was a run on a single day, done by the same employee (who probably no longer works there) and they can trace all the numbers back to that single person on that single day, during the morning batch, or whatever it was.

The people who have said theirs has gone down, have also reported that they were made whole again very quickly. I know of one that went down on a Friday. The broken motor and the new motor passed each other in the mail and the sled was on the snow again by the next Saturday. I'd say that's good customer service from the dealer AND Polaris.

Well since I am still awake.......why wait ?

Not adhesive....... Well most likely not..... Read on

I beleive within 99.9% that what I am about to say will make things pretty clear why some sleds fail almost instantly and some are still running.


When you assemble an 850 bottom-end ...... It's much different then any other Polaris bottom-end.

When you set the crankshaft in the case..... Almost all people set it in the bottom half first because of the rods.

Install the MAG & PTO seal and set it in..... Correct?

Well.... Not so fast, remember this crankshaft has a floating PTO bearing.

If the bearing happens to be all the way ( in ) up against the crank wheel the motor will not make thru the first day, the stationary outer race will drag on the wheel and friction lock it.

If the bearing is dead center between the wheel and the crank seal you can ride a long long time.

If the bearing is all the way out as far as it will go it covers up 80% of the hole from the brass oiler....

( On the cases I have here )......... Now if by chance if an assembly line worker puts fair amount or sealer around the PTO seal its possible the remaining 20% of the hole is closed off. ( I believe this is very unlikely )

Or if by chance..... multiple shops were contracted to final machines the crankcase castings and there oil hole location was .100 to .150 thou inward from the cases I have here...... then the oil line will pop off because the bearing closed the hole. ( this is very possible )


I will post pics tomorrow of what it all looks like on one that's here.

In order to assemble These motors with the bearing in the exact same place
( the center between the wheel and the seal ) you would need to use a portable spacer between the crank cheek and the bearing until you have it seated.

Then pull the assembly spacer before installing the case top.

As I mentioned earlier..... A floating PTO bearing is a death sentence.

And besides all this....... Even if assemble dead center the chances of it staying there with the slide hammer effects of the drive clutch is almost zero.

The bearing would have to be Loctited in the case..... And Loctite expands and uses up space and can over crush bearings.

Very risky move.

Bed time.

Dan

 

[cacsrx1]

The way you are describing it sounds pretty close to what I've been hearing.
The sleds that are reportedly going down due to a bottom end issue sound like it's because of an assembly line issue procedure, not a design issue.

If they have 4 or 5 or even 25 that go gone down with this issue, it's a pretty small number (though ZERO is the preferred number) out of the nearly 10,000 850 snowcheck orders.

I'm guessing if those are the numbers, it was a run on a single day, done by the same employee (who probably no longer works there) and they can trace all the numbers back to that single person on that single day, during the morning batch, or whatever it was.

The people who have said theirs has gone down, have also reported that they were made whole again very quickly. I know of one that went down on a Friday. The broken motor and the new motor passed each other in the mail and the sled was on the snow again by the next Saturday. I'd say that's good customer service from the dealer AND Polaris.

Even if it was and assembly line error by leaving a spacer out on the PTO, what does that have to do with the center bearing locking up?

 

[k5blazer72]

Well since I am still awake.......why wait ?

Not adhesive....... Well most likely not..... Read on

I beleive within 99.9% that what I am about to say will make things pretty clear why some sleds fail almost instantly and some are still running.


When you assemble an 850 bottom-end ...... It's much different then any other Polaris bottom-end.

When you set the crankshaft in the case..... Almost all people set it in the bottom half first because of the rods.

Install the MAG & PTO seal and set it in..... Correct?

Well.... Not so fast, remember this crankshaft has a floating PTO bearing.

If the bearing happens to be all the way ( in ) up against the crank wheel the motor will not make thru the first day, the stationary outer race will drag on the wheel and friction lock it.

If the bearing is dead center between the wheel and the crank seal you can ride a long long time.

If the bearing is all the way out as far as it will go it covers up 80% of the hole from the brass oiler....

( On the cases I have here )......... Now if by chance if an assembly line worker puts fair amount or sealer around the PTO seal its possible the remaining 20% of the hole is closed off. ( I believe this is very unlikely )

Or if by chance..... multiple shops were contracted to final machines the crankcase castings and there oil hole location was .100 to .150 thou inward from the cases I have here...... then the oil line will pop off because the bearing closed the hole. ( this is very possible )


I will post pics tomorrow of what it all looks like on one that's here.

In order to assemble These motors with the bearing in the exact same place
( the center between the wheel and the seal ) you would need to use a portable spacer between the crank cheek and the bearing until you have it seated.

Then pull the assembly spacer before installing the case top.

As I mentioned earlier..... A floating PTO bearing is a death sentence.

And besides all this....... Even if assemble dead center the chances of it staying there with the slide hammer effects of the drive clutch is almost zero.

The bearing would have to be Loctited in the case..... And Loctite expands and uses up space and can over crush bearings.

Very risky move.

Bed time.

Dan

Just my $0.02 but,


Since the PTO bearing isn't pressed onto the crank and the crank "floats" inside the bearing, I don't think the clutch engagement will have much of a slide hammer effect on the bearing. I do think you're right about the use of a spacer during assembly and how CRITICAL the position of that bearing on the crank (and in the case...) is. Seems to me that this is most likely an assembly line issue and not a design flaw.


Only the time and the number of engine failures (and their mileage at failure) will really tell us which it is.


EDIT: If the failed PTO brg sleds cared to share their VIN# or build date, this might help isolate a bad batch of engines???

 

[indydan]

Here we go

While Dan may know more a about some things than some Polaris engineers, the castings and plating is not done at Polaris or spec'd by Polaris. The plating company is one of the largest in the world, and I would suspect has more experience than Dan ( I know hard to believe anybody has more experience than Dan)
I know a bit about this plating house and have met the owner and spoke with him at length.
If Polaris was doing all the plating in house, then that would be a cause for concern for sure. They are not doing it in house and have contracted a very good company for this operation. Hence, another reason why the plating is very good on this cylinder.

ADDIE...... I will be the first to admit I am not a scholar, and I really do not think of myself as in the upper top % of the working public.


As matter a fact I really struggled in school and I mean struggled, I am a very poor reader. I actually have never read a complete book.... Only tech articles and Magizines.

ABOLUTLEY LOVE YOUTUBE


that being said........ Go back and read what I said about what I know about plating.

I do not know jack chit about plating..... And I mean nothing.

What is in my wheel house is ( SURFACE FINISH ) on silicon carbide cylinders.

That is what I pinned pointed when I mentioned ( and grouped everyone together ) and I said what sum feel as arrogant that I know more about then all of them Added together.

ADDIE....... Plating companies are EXPERTS about plating ( not HONING ) and surface finish.

Honing companies are experts at building hones ( they are not experts about surface finish )......the honing companies get ALL their information about the proper surface finish from the field.......from

Indy Specialty
NASCAR
NHRA
CHRYSLER
FORD
GM
YAMAHA
HONDA
CATAPILER
JONH DEERE
CUMMINS

And on and on and on it goes....

ADDIE....... Don't Try and take these people somewhere we have not been.

And do not change what I said...... I know what I said.

And I know what I don't know...... And I know what I do know.

I am pretty damn sure that I am on the mid to low side of IQ on this site...

Where I am really strong in is as follows ......

hiring great people
Working with them and listening to them
And guiding them when they need it as much as I can.

And my strongest area is this...... I have a God given gift of mechanical common sense that even surprises me sometimes.

Are there people that have more...... Absolutely!!

And ADDIE...... What I do know more about then anyone I have ever spoke with is this... ( surface finish on a silicon plated cylinder ).

And you know what that's not accurate ...... I am sure I don't know more about it.

What I do know is what works in the field and what will fall short in the future.

The 850 will surfer piston and ring failure because of the cylinder finish I saw in our new ones.

And my bet is TRS Tony will prov me right.

Know one can imagine how long one 60 year old man can hold the hrottle wide open and for how many days in a row he can do it..... He even goes down hill Most often wide open throttle.

Why ? When I asked him.... You mow your lawn 1/2 speed at 1/2 throttle.... I had no come back.

I would bet there are many time in his motors from Polaris the ring actually turns red for a few moments..... And the ring burns thru the oil barrier.


And if his 2018 axys that went thru 4 motors would have been honed by Indy Specialty when It was new he would still be on the first motor.

Just a hunch.

ADDIE - We have moved on to a PTO bearing problem.

And you owe CatDieselpower an answer to his question.... And a few others.

Dan

 

[cubby]

While Dan may know more a about some things than some Polaris engineers, the castings and plating is not done at Polaris or spec'd by Polaris. The plating company is one of the largest in the world, and I would suspect has more experience than Dan ( I know hard to believe anybody has more experience than Dan)
I know a bit about this plating house and have met the owner and spoke with him at length.
If Polaris was doing all the plating in house, then that would be a cause for concern for sure. They are not doing it in house and have contracted a very good company for this operation. Hence, another reason why the plating is very good on this cylinder.

So why not just come clean and give all of us some back ground on yourself? I myself think you have something to do with Polaris.

 

[Solarguy]

The way you are describing it sounds pretty close to what I've been hearing.
The sleds that are reportedly going down due to a bottom end issue sound like it's because of an assembly line issue procedure, not a design issue.

If they have 4 or 5 or even 25 that go gone down with this issue, it's a pretty small number (though ZERO is the preferred number) out of the nearly 10,000 850 snowcheck orders.

I'm guessing if those are the numbers, it was a run on a single day, done by the same employee (who probably no longer works there) and they can trace all the numbers back to that single person on that single day, during the morning batch, or whatever it was.

The people who have said theirs has gone down, have also reported that they were made whole again very quickly. I know of one that went down on a Friday. The broken motor and the new motor passed each other in the mail and the sled was on the snow again by the next Saturday. I'd say that's good customer service from the dealer AND Polaris.

Scott, are you suggesting the bearing issue could be or is isolated to a certain number of sleds???

 

[Big10inch]

The way you are describing it sounds pretty close to what I've been hearing.
The sleds that are reportedly going down due to a bottom end issue sound like it's because of an assembly line issue procedure, not a design issue.

If they have 4 or 5 or even 25 that go gone down with this issue, it's a pretty small number (though ZERO is the preferred number) out of the nearly 10,000 850 snowcheck orders.

I'm guessing if those are the numbers, it was a run on a single day, done by the same employee (who probably no longer works there) and they can trace all the numbers back to that single person on that single day, during the morning batch, or whatever it was.

The people who have said theirs has gone down, have also reported that they were made whole again very quickly. I know of one that went down on a Friday. The broken motor and the new motor passed each other in the mail and the sled was on the snow again by the next Saturday. I'd say that's good customer service from the dealer AND Polaris.

I love reading the excuses by the faithful in the face of some pretty damning evidence. I know you would all like to think Polaris hit it out of the park this time but it sure looks like a redoux. Memories of the 900 and 800 dragon come back but with a better warranty this time.


Guessing the number will be low is funny as well since very few of the 10,000 have very many miles on them yet. We will know more by April and we will have the whole picture a year from this coming April once they have two seasons on them. Both Cat and Doo released new motors with precious few issues, certainly nothing like what is being discussed here.


Put those blinders on though, remain hopeful and keep sending them money. hasn't worked to solve their first year motor issues yet but maybe this time? Best of luck with that plan.

 

[indydan]

Great post !

Just my $0.02 but,


Since the PTO bearing isn't pressed onto the crank and the crank "floats" inside the bearing, I don't think the clutch engagement will have much of a slide hammer effect on the bearing. I do think you're right about the use of a spacer during assembly and how CRITICAL the position of that bearing on the crank (and in the case...) is. Seems to me that this is most likely an assembly line issue and not a design flaw.


Only the time and the number of engine failures (and their mileage at failure) will really tell us which it is.


EDIT: If the failed PTO brg sleds cared to share their VIN# or build date, this might help isolate a bad batch of engines???

100% correct..... The slide hammer effect doesn't matter on the bearing because there is no interference it to the crank.

What the slide hammer effect does ( if there is no press fit on the PTO bearing ) the clutch slide hammer effect then goes to the rod pin.....and this is a force that cannot be stopped.

The danger of the floating bearing is this...... Sled sits all night at Cooke city outside @ 32 below zero.

The entire motor gets that cold...... When you start the anti freeze almost instantly starts to warm up. The aluminum crankcase feels the warmth coming from the cylinder ( thermostat closed ) heat transfer in alum is quick and growth is over twice the rate of bearing grade steel.

The case interference fit is probably around -.0015 to -.003 the case will most likely grow to about .002 to .005 thou positive of bearing size for a very short time.


These are guess numbers.....but I can tell you this I had motors in the shop many times that we pulled drive in the shop with a short warm up.....

And when we went to pull the drive clutch the crank was floating in the case.

A short time later the crank was snug with no wiggle.


So if Polaris plans on this for he hold on the bearing........ I will be the first one to admit that has big balls and they proved me wrong.

Interesting stuff.


Dan

 

[ADDIE]

ADDIE...... I will be the first to admit I am not a scholar, and I really do not think of myself as in the upper top % of the working public.


As matter a fact I really struggled in school and I mean struggled, I am a very poor reader. I actually have never read a complete book.... Only tech articles and Magizines.

ABOLUTLEY LOVE YOUTUBE


that being said........ Go back and read what I said about what I know about plating.

I do not know jack chit about plating..... And I mean nothing.

What is in my wheel house is ( SURFACE FINISH ) on silicon carbide cylinders.

That is what I pinned pointed when I mentioned ( and grounded everyone together ) and I said what sum feel as arrogant that I know more about then all of them Added together.

ADDIE....... Plating companies are EXPERTS about plating ( not HONING ) and surface finish.

Honing companies are experts at building hones ( they are not experts about surface finish )......the honing companies get ALL their information about the proper surface finish from the field from......

Indy Specialty
NASCAR
NHRA
CHRYSLER
FORD
GM
YAMAHA
HONDA
CATAPILER
JONH DEERE
CUMMINS

ADDIE....... Don't Try and take these people somewhere we have not been.

And do not change what I said...... I know what I said.

And I m know what I don't know...... And I know what I do know.

I am pretty damn sure that I am on the mid to low side of IQ on this site...

Where I am really strong is in.......

hiring great people
Working with them and listening to them
And guiding them when they need it as much as I can.

And my strongest area is this...... I have a God given gift of mechanical common sense that even surprises me sometimes.

And ADDIE...... What I do know more about then anyone I have ever spoke with is. ( surface finish on a silicon plated cylinder ).

And you what that's not accurate ...... I am sure I don't know more about it.

What I do know is what works in the field and what will fall short in the future.

The 850 will surfer piston and ring failure because of the cylinder finish I saw in our new ones.

And my bet is TRS Tony will prov me right.

Know one can imagine how long one 60 year old man can hold a there the hrottle wide open and for how many days in a row he can do it.

I would bet there are many time in his motors from Polaris the ring actually turns red for a few moments..... And the ring burns thru the oil barrier.


And if his 2018 axys that went thru 4 motors would have been honed by Indy Specialty when It was new he would still be on the first motor.

Just a hunch.

We have moved on to a PTO bearing problem.

And you owe CatDieselpower an answer to his question.... And a few others.

Dan

Dan, you can not be serious? Plating house does not know much about hone finish? They have to be experts IMO. Nobody is saying you do not know much about honing, I am sure you do, but I would not discount others knowledge either especially plating houses and honing tool mfg.
To state that you know more than ALL of them combined, is plain and simple arrogance. Sorry, it is just the way myself, and others see it.

The companies that design and manufacture the tooling obviously must know something about it or you would not be using their tools?

Or do you manufacture your own honing stones and brushes?

If the 850 piston and steel ring suffer failure, IMO, it will not be because of the honing finish. But, you can come on this forum and say that it is a result of the finish and many will believe you. Just like you stated the same with the 800 and they believed you there as well.
We do not suffer piston or ring failure with the 800 and do not use your hone finish.
How is that possible if the hone finish is the cause?

When the chips all fall, the hone finish is just fine and does not cause early piston failure. If it did, then you would have 100% failure rate and we do not.

Sorta like eating tainted food in a diner, if you eat a hamburger that has ecoli bacteria. You will get sick that is 100% guaranteed. In fact, everybody who eats ecoli infested meat will get sick, not just some, 100% will.

So, if the honing ruins pistons, then all pistons will be ruined and they are not.

Dan, you are not always right, and telling everybody you have a low IQ is clever to say the least.
You have been wrong many times (just like all of us have) and have flip-flopped on what piston to use and oil to use over and over stating how sure you were.

In the end, it is nothing more than your opinion and if you are right, I will be the first to chew on some crow feathers. Hopefully, you will do the same?

As for the PTO bearing, time will tell. You may be onto something or you may not. Time will tell on this one

As for the honing finish causing piston failure on the 800 and the 850, IMO, you are not correct on that one and the 800 has already proved this to be the case.

Like you said in one of your posts, it is hard to admit you were wrong.

Hopefully, you can respond without using personal attacks in your comments?

 

[Spaarky]

Scott isn’t one to share info if it’s not solid. My understanding is there is a hard number of sleds. The number is very small big picture.

I am not a Mod but please everyone be respectful. I try not to say anything unless I would say it sitting in front of them. Let’s make sure to keep it professional and respectful. Some of the things being said make it hard to even want to weed through The good info in this thread. Thanks.

 

[Teth-Air]

Another 850 went down yesterday with the PTO rod bearing oil line falling off. You guys who have not checked yours are asking for it.

 

[High Voltage]

Dan, I hope you realize there are others that also have "so much" experience in the field and are also hard to be "out flanked"?

While your experiences are valid, so are others. Why discount them simply because they do not agree with yours?

We are still waiting for the answer of the question you seem to avoid!

https://youtu.be/oyR3TzIgi-U

 

[Scott]

Even if it was and assembly line error by leaving a spacer out on the PTO, what does that have to do with the center bearing locking up?

I am not going to dive into the specifics of the bottom end and the issue that might be out there. I'm just saying what I said.

Scott, are you suggesting the bearing issue could be or is isolated to a certain number of sleds???

From what I've learned through my contacts with Polaris, that is what I suspect to be true. Time will tell.

I love reading the excuses by the faithful in the face of some pretty damning evidence. I know you would all like to think Polaris hit it out of the park this time but it sure looks like a redoux. Memories of the 900 and 800 dragon come back but with a better warranty this time.

Guessing the number will be low is funny as well since very few of the 10,000 have very many miles on them yet. We will know more by April and we will have the whole picture a year from this coming April once they have two seasons on them. Both Cat and Doo released new motors with precious few issues, certainly nothing like what is being discussed here.

Put those blinders on though, remain hopeful and keep sending them money. hasn't worked to solve their first year motor issues yet but maybe this time? Best of luck with that plan.

Does the "evidence" conflict with that I said? Rembmer, there are two conversations going on in this thread. One is about the bottom end, and the other is about cylinder honing. MY comments are related STRICTLY to the bottom end. I'm not part of the honing conversation.

They put 5000 miles on the test motors ON the snow. 5000 real-world miles. On EACH motor. Most sledders don't own their motors long enough to put 5k on them.
I'm pretty sure a bearing issue would have surfaced during that time.
Yes, time will tell. I trust the engineers that I've met and worked with. I do have faith in their R&D on this motor. The issue that seems to be coming up appears to be an isolated assembly line issue. But yes, time will tell.

Scott isn’t one to share info if it’s not solid. My understanding is there is a hard number of sleds. The number is very small big picture.

I am not a Mod but please everyone be respectful. I try not to say anything unless I would say it sitting in front of them. Let’s make sure to keep it professional and respectful. Some of the things being said make it hard to even want to weed through The good info in this thread. Thanks.

I try to gather information before I share it. I try not to be reactive. I try to be level-headed and a voice of reason. I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

 

[RYDPWDR]

Click on picture attachments below


And here is what is happening to the 850 PTO bearings

Look close at the pictures and you can see where the PTO bearing moves inward until the Outside diameter hits the spinning crankshaft PTO wheel
and then locks the motor.

If all the 850's have a float PTO bearing which they most likely all do it will be a 100% full recall.



Dan

Dan, been a long time man, sounds like you are still doing great. This is exactly what I heard is going to happen from source out here, heard it 2 weeks ago.

 

[JJ_0909]

LETS MAKE SURE WE ALL KNOW ONE KEY THING HERE.....

This is NOT an assembly line error........ NO WAY NO HOW ! Not a chance this is a engineering flaw.

And who ever he is..... She..... Them..... All involved in that PTO bearing should have their pay cut down to minimun wage and moved to sweeping floors and cleaning toilets for at least 2 years for all to see ( not moved to a different engineering job )

The two guys in the video should be prosecuted for racketeering and given at least a 5 year stay in federal prison.

At Polaris heads should roll and there needs to be a completely different business model starting now.

Dan

Woh woh what?

federal prison? Dude. Its snowmobiling, not pharmaceutical sales. Even if this is a disaster nobody should go to prison. Do you think you should go to prison when you screwed up in your career? Relegated to janitorial duties? You are a hypocrite if you post what you did above and say otherwise. Lighten up!

You act like the Polaris engineering team is a group of prehistoric neanderthals in a cage throwing feces at one and other. They clearly aren't.

This is a snowmobile. Not a $250K Porsche. There is an *incredible* amount of technology in the sled (and all manufacturers sleds). I'm blown away what these things can do, for a price a mortal can afford.

How are there so many sleds that already have 300+ miles on them? Heck, at Silber we have a few test sleds with well over that, and are (gasp) boosted. These sleds were even used to assess the mapping, whereby we will make mistakes (in the map building) and hit det every now and then or have one issue or another. That's how building a map works.

If you think this motor is so prone to failure, surely we would have smoked a crank, a piston, something...but we haven't.

I'm not saying your observations aren't without some validity, but your hypothesis (all these motors are doomed) is unlikely to be right based of field observations thus far alone.

Lets look at the failure stats. Stop worrying about the fear mongering by *one* dude and go ride our sleds.

Sheesh.

 

[summ8rmk]

Dan, you can not be serious? Plating house does not know much about hone finish? They have to be experts IMO. Nobody is saying you do not know much about honing, I am sure you do, but I would not discount others knowledge either especially plating houses and honing tool mfg.

To state that you know more than ALL of them combined, is plain and simple arrogance. Sorry, it is just the way myself, and others see it.



The companies that design and manufacture the tooling obviously must know something about it or you would not be using their tools?



Or do you manufacture your own honing stones and brushes?



If the 850 piston and steel ring suffer failure, IMO, it will not be because of the honing finish. But, you can come on this forum and say that it is a result of the finish and many will believe you. Just like you stated the same with the 800 and they believed you there as well.

We do not suffer piston or ring failure with the 800 and do not use your hone finish.

How is that possible if the hone finish is the cause?



When the chips all fall, the hone finish is just fine and does not cause early piston failure. If it did, then you would have 100% failure rate and we do not.



Sorta like eating tainted food in a diner, if you eat a hamburger that has ecoli bacteria. You will get sick that is 100% guaranteed. In fact, everybody who eats ecoli infested meat will get sick, not just some, 100% will.



So, if the honing ruins pistons, then all pistons will be ruined and they are not.



Dan, you are not always right, and telling everybody you have a low IQ is clever to say the least.

You have been wrong many times (just like all of us have) and have flip-flopped on what piston to use and oil to use over and over stating how sure you were.



In the end, it is nothing more than your opinion and if you are right, I will be the first to chew on some crow feathers. Hopefully, you will do the same?



As for the PTO bearing, time will tell. You may be onto something or you may not. Time will tell on this one



As for the honing finish causing piston failure on the 800 and the 850, IMO, you are not correct on that one and the 800 has already proved this to be the case.



Like you said in one of your posts, it is hard to admit you were wrong.



Hopefully, you can respond without using personal attacks in your comments?

U should stay away from foodborne pathogen analogies....

E.coli has many strains, most of which will not hurt u. Not only do u eat some on a regular basis, u also have some living in ur digestive tract....

In North America, E. Coli 0157: H7 (shiga toxin) is the one u really need to worry about and the severity of the illness varies widely from person to person.
Symptoms may be so mild that u wouldn't think anything is wrong(upset stomach or mild diarrhea) or, it could kill u...

 

[d8grandpa]

Another 850 went down yesterday with the PTO rod bearing oil line falling off. You guys who have not checked yours are asking for it.

I don’t think just checking it is sufficient. If above statements have any relevance and the hole is plugged it could blow this line off at anytime, how would you know.
I have checked all my lines and they were on good, i went one step further and took the pto line off and used a syringe with a oil line attached. I injected a couple ounces in, so for now my line is clear. I use this syringe anytime i have worked on these motors to make sure all the bearings are well lubed before running.
Cheers

 

[Solarguy]

I am not going to dive into the specifics of the bottom end and the issue that might be out there. I'm just saying what I said.



From what I've learned through my contacts with Polaris, that is what I suspect to be true. Time will tell.



Does the "evidence" conflict with that I said? Rembmer, there are two conversations going on in this thread. One is about the bottom end, and the other is about cylinder honing. MY comments are related STRICTLY to the bottom end. I'm not part of the honing conversation.

They put 5000 miles on the test motors ON the snow. 5000 real-world miles. On EACH motor. Most sledders don't own their motors long enough to put 5k on them.
I'm pretty sure a bearing issue would have surfaced during that time.
Yes, time will tell. I trust the engineers that I've met and worked with. I do have faith in their R&D on this motor. The issue that seems to be coming up appears to be an isolated assembly line issue. But yes, time will tell.



I try to gather information before I share it. I try not to be reactive. I try to be level-headed and a voice of reason. I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

Scott, thank you!!
I for one believe Polaris will step up and recall if a serious production wide problem with the bearing exists as the costs to replace motors and lose customers would far out weigh the fix. Also, after all the R&D I can't see Polaris making a production run change that could lead to catastrophic failures without
adequate testing? I personally can buy any brand I want and upgrade every couple of years ..... keep choosing poo as they fit my riding style.
On another note, the new 850's are a riot to ride and with a 4 year warranty any problems WILL get worked out. My wife said something she has never said before....I LOVE this sled and it showed as she was riding at the "next level" for her day one on the 850.