Yamaha and weight

[CatRpillar]

Another big difference in my eyes is engine issues are openly discussed in the Polaris forum. You can see the objection to discussing weight and yamahas in this thread.

If your wife doesn't cook you dinner, you'll bring it up, otherwise you don't eat. If she's overweight, you probably won't say anything. It's like that.

Besides, some guys like 'em big.

 

[icr]

Racing is also development, advertising, a tax write off, a training ground for personnel, etc. You don't think Mercedes Benz runs in F1 to sell F1 cars......

No but I think they build luxury cars to sell luxury cars, same as Yamaha should build mountain sleds to sell them, regardless of market size.

 

[icr]

If your wife doesn't cook you dinner, you'll bring it up, otherwise you don't eat. If she's overweight, you probably won't say anything. It's like that.

Besides, some guys like 'em big.

This is easily my favorite post.

 

[Jaynelson]

That's it. I was thinking of buying a Ferrari but I just heard they sell more Chevys so I'm buying a Cruz. Or at least that's what I think the logic was....

Ferraris prices are dictated by performance, exotic materials, exclusivity, and a large dose of prestige/history. Your comparison is closer to a CMX vs a Tundra fanner.

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

They've absolutely come a long way since the rx1, but it has taken twelve years.

How long did it take 2S builders to get where they are today? IMO Yamaha is light years ahead of the 2S motor. There is no denying what Yamaha has accomplished with there 4S motor regardless of the motor weight difference. Between 4S & 2S,

I believe the weakest link in the Viper is the Cat Chassis Yamaha can do bette IMO....I'm riding a 2014 Proclimb and the chassis in comparison to the XM or Pro IMO its OK but not as good as the Doo or Poo chassis. The 2.6 track on the other hand is out standing. Been riding bottomless early season snow and the track provided for the Viper & M8 flat out works very good.

DPG

 

[kanedog]

IIIIIIII liiiiiiiiike big butts and I cannot lie................

 

[CatRpillar]

How long did it take 2S builders to get where they are today? IMO Yamaha is light years ahead of the 2S motor. There is no denying what Yamaha has accomplished with there 4S motor regardless of the motor weight difference. Between 4S & 2S,

I believe the weakest link in the Viper is the Cat Chassis Yamaha can do bette IMO....I'm riding a 2014 Proclimb and the chassis in comparison to the XM or Pro IMO its OK but not as good as the Doo or Poo chassis. The 2.6 track on the other hand is out standing. Been riding bottomless early season snow and the track provided for the Viper & M8 flat out works very good.

DPG

I think the biggest drawback the ProClimb chassis has is that it is based on the ProCross and therefore compromises in a few areas where others can specialize. I wouldn't call it a weak link but it's more of a generalist imo. Poo's excel at boondocking and the Doo is a climber. Cats sort of in the middle. Depends what you like. Personally, I have loved Cat front ends since the ZR's and really don't like the feel of others.

 

[YAMA S]

If we had dealer support it would be great..... If I had Outlaw Motorsports or Mark Leipheimer in my back yard I'd still be on boosted YAMAHA, cause there is nothing more fun than these sleds. Weight... Whatever Power.... Whatever... A Great dealer............ Priceless!!

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

I think the biggest drawback the ProClimb chassis has is that it is based on the ProCross and therefore compromises in a few areas where others can specialize. I wouldn't call it a weak link but it's more of a generalist imo. Poo's excel at boondocking and the Doo is a climber. Cats sort of in the middle. Depends what you like. Personally, I have loved Cat front ends since the ZR's and really don't like the feel of others.

I agree, geometrically the proclimb chassis attacks the snow differently than the Doo & Poo Chassis. Doo & Poo as I'm sure we all know are much lower and flatter on there approach on the snow. Both the RX1 & Apex were like that I wonder as the Viper evolves if yamaha will go back to that.

DPG

 

[Bacon]

Kind of funny how everyone on here was pleading with Cat back in '11 and '10 that they should long track the race chassis. Lots of talk of that back then. They give us what you wanted now everyone is complaining that the chassis are the same. I ride with Poo and Doo. I have no problem with them. If you know how to set up a sled, the Proclimb chassis rocks.

 

[Slick]

I really like a lot of the things about the Cat chassis, except the front a arms and spindles. Im a fan of the Pro chassis, best and most fun in the mountains , the Doo chassis is still basically a bandaided trail chassis and with out the etec, not many would want one IMO, but last year I bought a Prolite, total hoot to ride, easy to sidehill responsive to minor body weight shifts, just a really fun sled. Couple buddies I rode with have the 14 Cats, and jumping back and forth I think everyone with a cat should switch to the BDX spindles and a arms, I found the stock cat no where near as easy or as fun as the Prolite, and although there are a few other differences, I think that's rather best thing you can do to the Cat.

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

Working on that as we speak at this point more snow is needed to achieve that. Coming off a Doo or even a Poo you appreciate there lower CG when comparing to Cat.

DPG

 

[stingray719]

Huh?

I don't own one for a variety of reasons. One being....I don't want a heavier sled with less power than my current previous sled(s). Another being....I have a lot of time on the current Cat chassis....it's fine, but I prefer the Pol chassis. Another being...the dealer is the furthest away (although only an hour's drive), I don't know anyone there, and they are the least involved with local sled stuff. So that's enough reasons for me, but I'm sure other's are in a different boat depending on how you ride, and where you ride/live.

I honestly don't understand the hostile response to this thread at all. No one said you shouldn't buy a Yamaha, or that they don't have some advantages, or that anyone should buy anything else.

Take the emotion and the brand preference out of it and think about it from a sales and business standpoint. They simply don't have an equally appealing product to the majority of the market....if they did, they would own more market share....simple as that. Is some of that perception? Sure! Most people can't ride any of these new sleds to their limits, so a Viper is probably as good as anything else. But that doesn't help sales.

With respect to total sales (and not anyone's individual experience), the weight thing (and stock power) is going to be a thorn in their paw until they address it. There's no denying that. Look at Polaris - they took an unbelievable sh!t kicking in the mid to late 2000's. Then they came out with a new lightweight sled and took back the market. You can sit around talk about how it's a pop can, or whatever....but at the end of the day, they hit on a product that people wanted. The sales speak for themselves.

I just think that if Yamaha could hit on a more appealing combo, given they already build good stuff of high quality....that they could take a MUCH larger piece of the pie. Do you guys honestly disagree with that?


Disclaimer: IF I was looking to spend a bunch of money, for a high power turbo'd mod sled - the Viper would be high on me list - possibly at the top. No denying the mod'd power/reliability combo.

My point is the same, you are talking opinions without actually riding a well set up Viper MTX. I know this because you would not have the same opinion if you did. Ride one and prove me wrong.

 

[bholmlate]

He explained in his first sentence why that is not going to happen. regardless if it is set up or not. It is funny how your opinion is always right Stingray. please stop going after people that have a different one then yours So Back on topic.

What do you guys think would be an acceptable weight to power ratio on a Yamaha sled and how would you achieve that goal keeping the reliability and fit and finish what we are accustom to with Yamaha. The kicker here is to keep in in the price range that is competitive with the others. We wont talk about transportation cost to get it to your market base here in the west but in yamaha's case is a factor no doubt.

 

[Jaynelson]

My point is the same, you are talking opinions without actually riding a well set up Viper MTX. I know this because you would not have the same opinion if you did. Ride one and prove me wrong.

Sorry, but it is most definitely not my "opinion" that it is a Cat chassis, with heavier weight and less power. Those are facts. That doesn't mean it's not a perfectly fine machine - but it also can't defy the laws of physics.

There are literally none around to ride....without exaggeration, I have not seen a new locally owned Yamaha in the mountains since the 1st year the Nytro debuted. Also facts, not opinion.

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

I really like a lot of the things about the Cat chassis, except the front a arms and spindles. Im a fan of the Pro chassis, best and most fun in the mountains , the Doo chassis is still basically a bandaided trail chassis and with out the etec, not many would want one IMO, but last year I bought a Prolite, total hoot to ride, easy to sidehill responsive to minor body weight shifts, just a really fun sled. Couple buddies I rode with have the 14 Cats, and jumping back and forth I think everyone with a cat should switch to the BDX spindles and a arms, I found the stock cat no where near as easy or as fun as the Prolite, and although there are a few other differences, I think that's rather best thing you can do to the Cat.

I'm liking the BDX spindle & arms.

DPG

 

[bholmlate]

What is it about the BDX arms and spindles that make that much of a difference to the overall performance of the sled itself

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

Lower, smaller compact design along with less mass and drag at lower
rpm will make the front more nimble... At least by the looks of there website photo that's what I'm thinking. And after nearly 3 weeks of testing various setups, the stock front geometry just wasn't my cup of tea....I found a happy medium but kept thinking What If my proclimb had a Pro or XM approach....What if I had coils vs Air...You know all the different stuff we think about making our sled better...3 Setup Rules 1. Handling, 2. Clutching, 3. Rear Transfer

DPG

 

[geo]

Interesting question bh.

The Viper is a large step in the right direction in weight and handling for Yamaha. It will build sales numbers for Yamaha (and Cat) for sure but to get back to #1 I think there needs to be more than just match current offerings.

How did Yamaha do it in the 80's. How did Doo do it in the 90's. How did Cat do it in the 2000's. How did Poo do it in the 2010's.

MO is you have to do something "stunning" and a leap past the rest. Just catching up is too slow with the present market because they are all good. And, "stunning" is really just getting something better through innovation and breaking through a barrier previously thought to be impossible (nothing is impossible lol).

Yamaha made sleds dependable way back. Impossible lol!. Doo put longer tracks on and narrowed up the front end stock. Impossible! Cat made a sled that picked itself up out of the snow. Impossible! Poo built a sled that weights less that a fan. Impossible!
So in the mountain sled timeline, we went from don't stray from the trucks to far unless you are a mountain man, to, wow skinnier and floatation is nice, to, I didn't get stuck, to, wow is this ever easy to ride.
What may be next!?

Yamaha could match weight, track length and paddle size and lead in HP and slowly gain market share. This basically the way the market is going now as OEM's try to catch the last "stunner", the Pro (don't get all poo pooed up about the mention of Poo, it's just the facts).
Nobody has done two "stunners" in a row, so if you really hate Poo you better hope they don't do something crazy next again. It will just take the rest longer to "catch up" in sales anyway.

Yamaha has the ability (as everyone knows and says) and technology (metallurgy, casting and forging methods, engine design) to match anyone. IMO they need to drop their fear again and let the engineers think outside the box like they did in the 80's.
It's tougher now because we no longer have JLO's, steel tunnels, steel clutches, etc. today but, where is that Samuri spirit!
Unless the rest embrace the 4 stroke (like it happened in the dirt bike world that everyone refers to) their experience in that engine design will never become an advantage.

To get back to number one (in my life time anyway lol), Yamaha needs to build a "stunner" 'cause nothing is really broke in any of them today.
What do you think Yamaha needs to shoot for? 400lbs or less and 160 ponies? Poo could be there next year. 178x3.5 track stock? Doo could be there next year. Nothing quickly comes to mind of anything Cat that Yamaha would shoot for except maybe production costs lol, sorry.

Here's a "stunner" lol. 440lb, 180 hp, 162, with lock-up auto trans., that gets 40mpg, and wheels fold out so you can drive to the snow and PWC based chassis to jump in the water in the summer.

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

Hers a pic of the difference.

DPG