Yamaha and weight

[CatRpillar]

I don't think yamaha really gives a rip about what people want, nor do they care about building this world class super sled some people on the net dream about. Just because you want it doesn't mean your going to change the minds of people on here much less in Japan. It doesn't matter if I think my sled is heavy or light, because yamaha is going to make what yamaha wants.

I think its more important the sled handles and feels good. The other companies have put weight thing in front of everyone indicating that the lighter it feels the better it will handle which in certain situations is correct and most of the time it doesn't matter. If the lighter 2S sled handles better then I would guess its set up better to do what that rider wants. Yammie could take a lesson on how to set up a sled for a American rider, and increase the perception of less weight on their sleds. All new sleds I have been apart of I have had to help the owners dial them in so they can actually ride them. I haven't seen one happy with its out of the box performance yet in terms of ride quality and handling. I may be a bad judge because I cannot feel the difference between a empty tank and a full one in handling.

In the end its just a sled, ride and have fun!

Too funny - this would be a good test. Ask your buddy's to trade identical sleds and have them fuelled differently. Put some good money on who thinks they can tell the difference and see how many takers there are!

On a similar note, my sister in law mentioned a few years ago that a lot of people couldn't tell the difference between red and white wines if they weren't allowed to look - I failed. lol But then I only drink wine when everything else runs out......

 

[Climbmax]

Funny stuff boys.
Ran into guy in Revelstoke on the weekend. Riding a 2015 Viper MTX. Never had a 4 stroke in his life.....so he came from somewhere in a 2 stroke world cause he could ride real well. His only comments were "I love this sled". It worked real well.......and his riding partner on the Boondocker Pro was rather impressed im sure.

Bottom line....ride what you pride. I know I love riding my Viper a lot
Cheers
RS

 

[Shattered1]

That's a valid point. I believe they can be made lighter but also wouldn't want to lose reliability for weight.

Shattered, If you're sick of this debate then again, ignore it. No one forced you to read or respond. No one is bashing Yamaha, trying to convince you your sled sucks or saying you can't ride.

You're right again icr. I really shouldn't read these threads. When I read nonsensical rationalizations from the two stroke guys who are experts on all things Yamaha, it makes me want to respond.

For instance, I posted in another thread a few days ago with a Viper at 606 pounds and a Pro at 601 pounds because a user wanted a comparison of the Viper to the Pro. If I recall, you were one of those making excuses for the weight of the Pro. Something about they bolted on excessively heavy aftermarket parts (because everyone goes to the aftermarket to add weight to their sled) and a 3" Extreme track being heaver than a 2.6" Powerclaw (I've never weighed them, but one poster pointed out that the Extreme track on the Pro was actually lighter than the Powerclaw on the Viper). Then Drew chimed in and confirmed that they were pretty close comparisons. I don't think any of the two stroke experts on all things Yamaha chimed in after that.

I don't know why they feel the need to point out that most four strokes are heavier and insist that their sleds are better because they are lighter. I think it is a stupid position and a stupid argument. As I stated earlier, I don't know or care what my sled weighs and would never base a purchase on that one factor.

I think that within reason, weight isn't as big a factor as many make it out to be. It's a number and tells little about how a sled performs. If weight were such an issue, most riders could stand to lose a lot of weight themselves. There are few of us that couldn't stand to lose 20 or 30 pounds.

Horsepower isn't even the whole story. Torque is often ignored. And torque is something that the underpowered four strokes have a lot of. That may have something to do with Gavin Balls winning his class at the Jackson Hole Hillclimb last spring with a naturally aspirated Viper.

Again, I'm sorry if I get a little bunched up when I read a lot of nonsense. I don't think that weight is as big an issue as many make it out to be. The sum of all factors is what matters and if it works it works. If it doesn't it doesn't. There seem to be a lot of people out there that think the Viper works.

If you don't like Yamahas because they are too heavy, don't own one. But don't tell me why I shouldn't own one. I like my sled and will keep riding it regardless of what others think of it.

 

[icr]

I agree weight is not all that matters. I prefer the apex to a nytro despite it weighing more.

As for the pro comparison that pro weighed 70lbs more than a stock pro. The viper was lighter than stock. The comment about a 3" track weighing less was a comparison of the 2.6 to 3" powerclaw, although the pro had a challenger extreme.

I sold my Yamaha because I prefer a lighter sled. I never told you to sell yours.

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

Ok, than can a stock Viper do the equivalent or better than a stock XM or Pro in the steep & deep ?......If a stock Viper can please explain why it will be better than the 2 stock sleds mentioned ?

DPG

 

[bholmlate]

The answer to his question is "NO" Stock for Stock the new viper cant compete with the XM in the steep and deep. So Deep Powder Guy you are the winner.

I guess Yamaha's ARE heavy underpowered pigs and the riders shouldn't not be allowed to live.

But seriously the question i have is "was the original design intent of the viper to compete at the 800 level of the other 3 in the mountain? Maybe Yamaha was thinking that they could make a more universal mountain package that does a broader range of things well with an option that allows for more power but has the same durability that people have come to expect.

 

[Jaynelson]

Worked at a Yamaha shop long before you rode one I will bet. Why don't you actually ride an MTX Viper?

Huh?

I don't own one for a variety of reasons. One being....I don't want a heavier sled with less power than my current previous sled(s). Another being....I have a lot of time on the current Cat chassis....it's fine, but I prefer the Pol chassis. Another being...the dealer is the furthest away (although only an hour's drive), I don't know anyone there, and they are the least involved with local sled stuff. So that's enough reasons for me, but I'm sure other's are in a different boat depending on how you ride, and where you ride/live.

I honestly don't understand the hostile response to this thread at all. No one said you shouldn't buy a Yamaha, or that they don't have some advantages, or that anyone should buy anything else.

Take the emotion and the brand preference out of it and think about it from a sales and business standpoint. They simply don't have an equally appealing product to the majority of the market....if they did, they would own more market share....simple as that. Is some of that perception? Sure! Most people can't ride any of these new sleds to their limits, so a Viper is probably as good as anything else. But that doesn't help sales.

With respect to total sales (and not anyone's individual experience), the weight thing (and stock power) is going to be a thorn in their paw until they address it. There's no denying that. Look at Polaris - they took an unbelievable sh!t kicking in the mid to late 2000's. Then they came out with a new lightweight sled and took back the market. You can sit around talk about how it's a pop can, or whatever....but at the end of the day, they hit on a product that people wanted. The sales speak for themselves.

I just think that if Yamaha could hit on a more appealing combo, given they already build good stuff of high quality....that they could take a MUCH larger piece of the pie. Do you guys honestly disagree with that?


Disclaimer: IF I was looking to spend a bunch of money, for a high power turbo'd mod sled - the Viper would be high on me list - possibly at the top. No denying the mod'd power/reliability combo.

 

[CatRpillar]

That's it. I was thinking of buying a Ferrari but I just heard they sell more Chevys so I'm buying a Cruz. Or at least that's what I think the logic was....

 

[GoBigParts]

Maybe Yamaha just needs to release some more Johnny Skeptical Promotional videos to tout the advantage of the 4-strokes.

 

[polarisfornow]

Maybe Yamaha just needs to release some more Johnny Skeptical Promotional videos to tout the advantage of the 4-strokes.

Hahaha! I remember those.

 

[bholmlate]

Again, it's this consumer mentality that is against change that is why Yamaha doesn't change. We don't need a petition or protest or million man march to change their view of the market. But pretending change is impossible or acting like you don't want it is all it takes to guarantee it won't come.

ICR you could use this same logic on any of the other 3 brands couldn't you? All Brands have had their far share of issues so i am only using polaris because its the easiest to help prove my point. Polaris engine packages have not been the best over the past few years. So using the same bit of logic as above I guess then that the customers are afraid of change and are not asking them to address this issue of reliability therefore Polaris will not step up and fix the issues they are having with their engine packages.

I am sure that most would agree that Yamaha as a company has the technology to produce something that may very well compete with the others in the mountain market so why arn't they? I have no knowledge of international trade agreements and/or import taxes and/or restrictions on performance goods coming into this country. I have read about unfair practices on the US's behalf to restrict things and sway the field to the US's benefit because the crap produced in this country cannot compete on the international stage otherwise. Not saying this is what is going on here just food for thought. It might explain why Yamaha is now in partnership with an American company to produce things here in the US so they can bypass above mentioned restrictions and play on a move level playing field in which case maybe we will see something in the next few years. Oh did I just say yamaha favorite phrase " just wait till next year" Slapping my own hands for typing that

 

[icr]

Haha that is a popular mantra. I would say Polaris has improved their motors, they're a huge improvement over what was found in the dragon and have seen further refinement in the pro over the years through new cylinders and Pistons. They are stil a long way from what the customer wants and are perceived as being the least reliable of the three but many people see no difference in a $500 "fix kit" vs $500 of braces for an xm or $500 worth of spare belts for a pro climb.

They absolutely all have issues, I just feel yamaha has been slowest to address theirs.

 

[BigFish BC]

so are you guys saying that because yammi has the turbo as a option you cant call it stock.well iam pretty sure you can get diff colors as a option,diff shocks as a option why not diff hp 130hp or a optional 180hp,its still under warranty whats the diff.oh & as you can read yammi does listen.

 

[icr]

so are you guys saying that because yammi has the turbo as a option you cant call it stock.well iam pretty sure you can get diff colors as a option,diff shocks as a option why not diff hp 130hp or a optional 180hp,its still under warranty whats the diff.oh & as you can read yammi does listen.

I see your point, I suppose for me it isn't stock because it costs extra. Arctic cat had a factory turbo on their 1100, why does Yamaha only offer boost as a dealer accessory.

 

[icr]

ICR you could use this same logic on any of the other 3 brands couldn't you? All Brands have had their far share of issues so i am only using polaris because its the easiest to help prove my point. Polaris engine packages have not been the best over the past few years. So using the same bit of logic as above I guess then that the customers are afraid of change and are not asking them to address this issue of reliability therefore Polaris will not step up and fix the issues they are having with their engine packages.

I am sure that most would agree that Yamaha as a company has the technology to produce something that may very well compete with the others in the mountain market so why arn't they? I have no knowledge of international trade agreements and/or import taxes and/or restrictions on performance goods coming into this country. I have read about unfair practices on the US's behalf to restrict things and sway the field to the US's benefit because the crap produced in this country cannot compete on the international stage otherwise. Not saying this is what is going on here just food for thought. It might explain why Yamaha is now in partnership with an American company to produce things here in the US so they can bypass above mentioned restrictions and play on a move level playing field in which case maybe we will see something in the next few years. Oh did I just say yamaha favorite phrase " just wait till next year" Slapping my own hands for typing that

Another big difference in my eyes is engine issues are openly discussed in the Polaris forum. You can see the objection to discussing weight and yamahas in this thread.

 

[bholmlate]

But with the Viper hasn't Yamaha also addressed the weight issue in a similar manner compared to the RX-1ton. I do agree its been a slow change but there has been improvement. Obviously there needs more. Weight has always been a touchy issue for sure.

Again Arctic cat is an American company verses a Japanese company importing performance products to the US.

 

[icr]

They've absolutely come a long way since the rx1, but it has taken twelve years.

 

[up-high]

Why would Yamaha worry about building a "light mountain sled" when the "mountain" segment is an insignificant market? There is no point. Obviously they are happy with their market share. Otherwise they certainly have the ability to make a light mountain sled. And ICR, if you're looking for a light weight Yamaha with 190 hp look in the Timbersled"s for sale in swap meet.

 

[icr]

Why would Yamaha worry about building a "light mountain sled" when the "mountain" segment is an insignificant market? There is no point. Obviously they are happy with their market share. Otherwise they certainly have the ability to make a light mountain sled. And ICR, if you're looking for a light weight Yamaha with 190 hp look in the Timbersled"s for sale in swap meet.

Because many of their western dealers depend on the mountain segment to stay in business through the winter. Why do manufacturers waste money developing race sleds when it's an insignificant market.

 

[CatRpillar]

Because many of their western dealers depend on the mountain segment to stay in business through the winter. Why do manufacturers waste money developing race sleds when it's an insignificant market.

Racing is also development, advertising, a tax write off, a training ground for personnel, etc. You don't think Mercedes Benz runs in F1 to sell F1 cars......