But why? If the nytro motor weighs 30lbs more than an 800 two stroke why can't we have a Yamaha that weighs 30lbs more than a pro for the same price?
Yamaha and weight
- Thread starter icr
- Start date
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BigFish BC
Well-known member
iam pretty sure we all want lighter & i know for a fact they know we want lighter. but like everything in life it takes time & from what i have heard they are moving in the right direction.i know allot of guys preach weight & i dont disagree totally, but its not the be all to end all.if i was to buy a 2 stroke right now it would be a cat because the chassi fits me.i dont like poos current chassi it dont fit me at all & thats more important to me than weight.
I don't think yamaha has to look very hard at the aftermarket companies of lightweight parts for yamaha sleds to understand that people want lighter sleds. You are right to a point that light weight and throw away are not synonymous. You cant disregard the fact that lightweight parts seldom outlast their counterparts however.
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CatRpillar
Well-known member
yes the apex motor is 8lbs heavier. Valid point with lighter factory parts. Yamaha sells lighter batteries than what comes in the viper. The headlight could be LED to save weight? Etc
4 years ago you will find similar threads in the Cat section on how come the PC8 weight was so much more than other 2s brands. Because Cat had to build one chassis (for economic reasons) to fit both 2s and 4s motors. They are really building a chassis just strong enough for a 177hp machine and is over built for an 800.
To put it another way, can you put a 4s motor in any other brands chassis and not expect to re-engineer bracing and structure for the added weight and hp? Not if you want longevity and reliability. My hope is that with a joint venture like this that maybe between the two of them it is feasible to build a 4s specific chassis. We are light years ahead of the RX1, Apex, and Nitro when you consider weight and handling.
No, 4s riders rarely complain about weight, we take that trade off for something we value as more important. It always makes me chuckle when threads like this are debated for the umpteenth time. It's the equivalent of going to any 2s sections and start a thread asking why they settle for such little power and higher maintenance? When is the last time you came across that one.....anyone want to test that theory lol?
To put it another way, can you put a 4s motor in any other brands chassis and not expect to re-engineer bracing and structure for the added weight and hp? Not if you want longevity and reliability. My hope is that with a joint venture like this that maybe between the two of them it is feasible to build a 4s specific chassis. We are light years ahead of the RX1, Apex, and Nitro when you consider weight and handling.
No, 4s riders rarely complain about weight, we take that trade off for something we value as more important. It always makes me chuckle when threads like this are debated for the umpteenth time. It's the equivalent of going to any 2s sections and start a thread asking why they settle for such little power and higher maintenance? When is the last time you came across that one.....anyone want to test that theory lol?
It must be that four stroke riders are just that much better. We are good enough to handle the extra weight.
Since four stroke riders are riding such ill mannered, overweight and poor performing sleds, the rider's ability is all that it can be. What do you say when you see a guy on top of a mountain on a RX1, Apex or Nytro? "Gee, I wish I could ride as good as you. Without this 400 pound sled, I can't do what you do".
Now go post in the appropriate two stroke section. If you don't have anything productive to add to the conversation, post somewhere else.
Since four stroke riders are riding such ill mannered, overweight and poor performing sleds, the rider's ability is all that it can be. What do you say when you see a guy on top of a mountain on a RX1, Apex or Nytro? "Gee, I wish I could ride as good as you. Without this 400 pound sled, I can't do what you do".
Now go post in the appropriate two stroke section. If you don't have anything productive to add to the conversation, post somewhere else.
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snowmobiler
Well-known member
Pretty cool the viper is lighter than that short track tripple turd.
i think if they get much lighter they would break and bend like a new poolaris.
i think if they get much lighter they would break and bend like a new poolaris.If you don't want to talk about the weight of yamahas don't click on a thread titled Yamaha and weight.
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Deep Powder Guy
Banned
The proper context IMO when comparing the 4S Viper vs. 2S Pro or XM goes as follows.....How many 4S Viper owners would be will to keep there Viper stock ? Ride ALL day with a stock XM or Pro ?.....Will the stock 4S Viper rider keep up with a stock 2S XM or Pro in the steep & deep, tight trees & side hill ?
At the end of the day does this really matter ? One would think the 4S owners educated himself enough to clearly know what there getting themselves into..At the end of the day all that matters is we are satisfied regardless of brand, displacement or weight.
DPG
At the end of the day does this really matter ? One would think the 4S owners educated himself enough to clearly know what there getting themselves into..At the end of the day all that matters is we are satisfied regardless of brand, displacement or weight.
DPG
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Jaynelson
Well-known member
I think this is a great point, and I honestly don't understand why this can NEVER be discussed civilly. Yes, Yamaha can continue on as they have....basically recycling the same small group of buyers over and over. Those buyers are either willing to compromise stock performance for reliability, or willing to modify their sleds at least a moderate amount to be competitive. Now, there is NOTHING WRONG if you are one of those 2 types.....BUT there is also no denying that leaves them out of the "meat" of the mountain market. No reason to argue the specifics - all the required evidence is in the sales figures.
Everyone knows that Yamaha can and will build a quality product, but the lack of truly competitive stock performance is definitely keeping their conquest sales at very very low levels. If they want to steal riders from other brands in reasonable numbers, they need a sled that competes directly, in stock form. In 2014, that means 160hp NA, at 420-450lbs dry. Or if you can't get the weight down below 480lbs, then 175hp. I honestly don't understand why Yammy riders think that is unattainable, or unreasonable to ask for. People take this as bashing, but really....I would love to see Yamaha be truly competitive, because then I (and many others) would actually consider their stuff when buying a new sled.
Absolutely right Deep Powder Guy. It doesn't matter. I don't know what my sled weighs and I couldn't care less. It works for me and that's what I'm interested in.
Former Nytro MTX owner, current 800, 144 Switchback Assault owner.
If I was solely a trail guy the weight of the four stokes would not concern me. Heck, the only time I noticed the weight of my MTX was side hilling and when stuck. I spent a lot of coin on my MTX, but at the end of the day and in my opinion, there was no substitute for weight loss.
I loved the Yamaha 4 stroke motor and comfort that goes with not wondering if your engine is going to pop at 5000 miles.
So I wonder at what weight and price would Yamaha have to come up with for someone like me to to consider buying Yamaha again.
I would certainly have paid more for my Polaris if the only difference was I could get 20,000 trouble free miles out of the engine.
You know icr, maybe you're right. I'm just sick of this tired old argument.
I don't consider weight at all. What matters to me is whether the sled performs. If it were 1000 pounds and performed the way I wanted it to, I'd want to own it. I kind of doubt anyone would make a 1000 pound sled that I'd want to own, but if they did, so be it.
Lower weight is nice, but it doesn't make one sled better than the other. In fact, I've seen more light weight sleds with taco'd tunnels and ripped off A- arms than heavy ones, so that makes me think that the light weight may be indicative of less than adequate structural integrity.
I'm just tired of the argument and extra tired of two stroke aficionados coming to the Yamaha section and telling everyone how Yamaha sucks and that what they ride is better when they have never ridden one or rode one once that wasn't set up right and didn't like it.
I think that some of these guys may have been on the hill with their brand new shiny sled and a 10 year old boosted Apex or RX was going places that they couldn't. The only argument they had while sitting at the bottom of the hill was that their sled was better because it was lighter. I've seen this happen. The open minded guys say, "Wow, that's pretty badazz. Look at that thing pull right up that chute." while those who are hurt by the fact that they can't pull that line say, "But they're so heavy" because that's the only argument they have.
I've seen people on two strokes do some amazing things. I've seen people on four strokes do some amazing things. I think that the rider has far more to do with it than the sled they are riding. I'd be willing to bet that Burandt could out ride most of those reading this if he was on a RX1 with no mods and they were on the latest greatest lightest modded sled out there. The guy is an amazing rider and could do it on any brand. But Polaris has him at the moment, so that's what he promotes. If Ski-doo, Arctic Cat or Yamaha were to pick him up, I'm sure that there are plenty of people that would drop their Polaris's and buy the sled of whoever is sponsoring him immediately and then tell everyone why their sled is better than anyone else's because Burandt rides one. It's more hero worship than anything.
So, sorry if I offended, but that's what comes to mind when I read people bashing Yamahas. That they must be lacking the skill to ride one.
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stingray719
Well-known member
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Jaynelson
Well-known member
Again, why is it bashing and not a discussion?
What are your thoughts on why Yamaha continues to fail at attracting new buyers from other brands in any substantial numbers? That is cold hard fact, not bashing. Riding skill is a whole different topic....safe to say their are riders of all skill levels riding all brands.
Lets call it what it is....Yamaha has taken their many-year-old substandard HP Nytro motor and stuck it in AC's average performing chassis, that is no stronger nor lighter than anyone else's. If you are happy with it, that's awesome....different people like different things. But if you think that is the pinnacle of Yamaha's engineering capabilities, I think you are really short changing them. The can build amazing, class leading stuff in other segments they compete in. I worked for Toyota for many years, and most people don't know that some of the best engines Toyota ever built were co-developed, co-built, or built entirely by Yamaha. They are a great company, but their effort in the mountain sled segment is definitely not swinging for the fences....
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That's a valid point. I believe they can be made lighter but also wouldn't want to lose reliability for weight.
Shattered, If you're sick of this debate then again, ignore it. No one forced you to read or respond. No one is bashing Yamaha, trying to convince you your sled sucks or saying you can't ride.
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CatRpillar
Well-known member
Just for the record I am coming from an 800 2s AC over Yamaha. So their strategy won me over. And I went with the Yammie over the Cat for the clutches and the tuning as well as the fact that their QC would probably be a step ahead of Cat on the same chassis.
On the other hand my riding is a lot less mountain focused than it used to be and the weight is a lesser factor. Plus dropping weight is easier on the Yamacat than a Poo!☺
On the business side what Yammie is doing makes a lot of sense. Why fight that hard for a quarter share of 20% of the market which is what the mountains represent.
On the other hand my riding is a lot less mountain focused than it used to be and the weight is a lesser factor. Plus dropping weight is easier on the Yamacat than a Poo!☺
On the business side what Yammie is doing makes a lot of sense. Why fight that hard for a quarter share of 20% of the market which is what the mountains represent.
I don't think yamaha really gives a rip about what people want, nor do they care about building this world class super sled some people on the net dream about. Just because you want it doesn't mean your going to change the minds of people on here much less in Japan. It doesn't matter if I think my sled is heavy or light, because yamaha is going to make what yamaha wants.
I think its more important the sled handles and feels good. The other companies have put weight thing in front of everyone indicating that the lighter it feels the better it will handle which in certain situations is correct and most of the time it doesn't matter. If the lighter 2S sled handles better then I would guess its set up better to do what that rider wants. Yammie could take a lesson on how to set up a sled for a American rider, and increase the perception of less weight on their sleds. All new sleds I have been apart of I have had to help the owners dial them in so they can actually ride them. I haven't seen one happy with its out of the box performance yet in terms of ride quality and handling. I may be a bad judge because I cannot feel the difference between a empty tank and a full one in handling.
In the end its just a sled, ride and have fun!
I think its more important the sled handles and feels good. The other companies have put weight thing in front of everyone indicating that the lighter it feels the better it will handle which in certain situations is correct and most of the time it doesn't matter. If the lighter 2S sled handles better then I would guess its set up better to do what that rider wants. Yammie could take a lesson on how to set up a sled for a American rider, and increase the perception of less weight on their sleds. All new sleds I have been apart of I have had to help the owners dial them in so they can actually ride them. I haven't seen one happy with its out of the box performance yet in terms of ride quality and handling. I may be a bad judge because I cannot feel the difference between a empty tank and a full one in handling.
In the end its just a sled, ride and have fun!
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stingray719
Well-known member
Worked at a Yamaha shop long before you rode one I will bet. Why don't you actually ride an MTX Viper?
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