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WSSA Votes for Registration Fee Increase

YOU HAVE TO SEE THE BIG PICTURE,

There is so much miss-understanding of our snowmobile program . We pay to play, All of our money goes into OUR dedicated MOTORIZED winter account, State parks over see's it but a panel of Snowmbilers sit on the board and get to say when where why and how much , they watch every dime of your money you pay in. For crying out loud we've had no registration increase in how many years ??? almost 8-10 years ?>>??? You dont think it cost more now to PLOW, GROOM, SANICANS, LAND USE PERMITS, SNOPARK EXPANTION, ect ect ect than it did back in 2003 or 2004??? Have you seen the price of diesel ??? Everything cost a HELL of a lot more than it did back than. We are taking in nearly the same amount to do what was expected back than NOW. It just doesnt work, I'm so tired of hearing these people say the STATE is going to get all this increased money and rip us off, IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, you have very dedicated bunch of people from WSSA and the Grooming Council that will fight to the death to control this. It's mostly our own people looking out for us. You guys and gals who bitch about the grooming or the plowing, You know why, ?? because we have had to take cuts in all area's of the state, we are close to a Million dollars short of where we need to be to sustain what we used to have. And you people bashing WSSA, guess what , with out them you might not have Lake Ann, Baker, and many other area's you ride open to you. They have fought so many battles and spent Hundredes of thousands on land use battles and legal fee's and your going to stop paying your $ 20 a year to support them,,,,??? You have got to be kidding right. Do you have any idea what they have done for the snowmobilers or our state ??? Obviously not. So for any extra $ 40 a year you are going to ride in Oregon, Idaho , Montana ? One trip there will cost you a ton more than $ 40 reg fee increase, This is a state wide program with over 100 snoparks to maintain and miles and miles of trailer to groome and keep open. I have 6 sleds in my family and I'm not a rich guy by any means. but I will save up and cough up the extra $ 240 a year to ride on groomed trails and drive on plowed roads. AND ALSO, THIS INCREASE WOULD MOST LIKELY TAKE 2 YEARS before it will even happen. For every negative comment on here I can probably give 3 positives and clear up some OUT RIGHT LIES that are going around. I can see that a lot of you are really miss-informed as to how it all works. No grooming or no plowing , now thats really intesting, I wonder how the majority of the riders in the state would feel about that,??? In the state parks survey almost 60% said they wanted an increase of $ 25 or MORE, Not trying to bash anybody but some of these comments make no sense when you look at the big picture. I've got lot more info to share if anyone needs it, 8 to 10 years with out any increase and people still expect what we had a few years back, I guess in your world inflation hasnt happened. ?? Sorry , dont mean to sound "" Growly" on this but it really upsets me reading some of these comments. I know I'm probably going to get chastized for this but I feel very strongly we need a increase in fee's. The majority of this money will go driectly back onto the snow where we need it most.
 
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winter use

THANKS DAN!!!!



I believe the last time I bought a ski lift ticket it was around $80.00 for the day


snowmobilers could ride for free in the non groomed areas

just like skiers can ski for free in the non lifted resort areas

again...just thinking out loud here for a permanent solution to this.

just my opinion
 
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I'm with Dan! Ever ridden up to the alpine at Baker or Salmon la Sac after grooming ends? Well if you haven't, it sucks! And, that's how it would be all the time without the program. We have less money than we had last year or the year before, because registrations are down. Want the same benefits? Then it's time to buck up. Don't like how it's being run today? Get involved! The program is run by State Parks and VOLUNTEER SLEDDERS LIKE DAN. And all you tough guys who say you'll make your own trails, we all know that's a bunch of BS! I vote for $80, so we don't have deal with it again in two years.
 
Tar, I believe we should all post how much we would spend...after all that is what started this thread

Sooooo

set up and collect at the trailhead and get rid of the state and I will do the same here as in canada...ehh remember I have already spent $200 in canada this season

now you know about $ 20.00 per ride...

if anyone does not want to pay then leave some areas ungroomed and not maintained for them to ride as is done in canada.. those areas are not bad after fresh snow...however the snowpark can be a bitch

for me riding in this state with the canada model described above, choosing where to ride each time would probably be about $ 600 from me alone into the grooming fund

pay as you go without gvt would be my best scenario...and if we could sue for offroad gas tax to pay some then hell ya.


my bad after looking back I have only spent $180 for trailhead fees in canada so far this year...planning one more trip so may be about $250 when done

Wendell, well articulated, and a point I have heard others on here post up as the solution they would endorse. I have a couple questions.
1. Would that be $20.00 for the vehicle, or per person?
2. How many kids are up there riding where you do in Canada? I'm trying to wrap my poor math skills around a family trying to promote our sport to the next couple generations and there is no way they could possibly manage it.
3. How much personal time would you be willing to donate to help manage the program? It will not run it's self, so are you thinking volunteers working the many jobs required, or would your program have employee's and management?
4. Would you plan to rent the equipment (groomers, trucks, porto-potties, etc) or would you turn to contractors and negotiate contracts every few years?
5. Finally, where would the start up money come from to get things rolling the first year?

I am NOT being difficult, I'm really interested in your working solutions to these questions, thank you!

TNT, how will registering in Idaho help your cause? Reciprocity has ended (initiated by us) and you would STILL be required to have a Sno Park Permit displayed in your vehicle which you would have to pay for as well. What have you gained?

Bag
 
snowmobilers could ride for free in the non groomed areas

just like skiers can ski for free in the non lifted resort areas

again...just thinking out loud here for a permanent solution to this.

just my opinion

The challenge here is it would decrease the number of registered snowmobiles and decrease overall revenue.

For the record I understand there are very good people that have volunteered and are watching over the state parks' management of the snowmobile fund... but the state parks charge 13% of the fund to administer it! I bet the same state employee(s) would be there if they no longer had a snowmobile fund to manage.

Also as we have seen, as long as there is not a balance in power in Olympia the current controlling party will do what ever they want including passing a lot of B S laws but not doing what they are suppose to be doing... passing a balanced budget and supporting education. They have not swept the dedicated funds but if you notice on the WSSA Web site, letters opposing this action are still being requested.

So why not the Canadian model?:canada: Dump the state's management and collect money at the trail head for grooming and parking lot clearing. My speculation in high use areas, you coasties (an old term for "people from Seattle...meaning ANYONE on the West side of the mountains..AKA "206ers"... I am kidding here:crutch: enough of the beatings) there would be more than enough money... in smaller areas (like ours) there would be little to no interest and it would be (like the old days) on your own to get to the mountains and ride... which was pretty cool because you could go all day and not see anyone.. and yea we dragged our kids along back then too.. and they followed in the big sled's tracks... got stuck a lot.. but still had fun.

So help me understand, why do we need big government to take care of our fund and fun? I say get the government out of the way (that saved 13%) and those who want groomed trails and plowed parking will figure out a way to do it... that is the :usa2: way!
 
good conversation !!!!Wendell, well articulated, and a point I have heard others on

Wendell, well articulated, and a point I have heard others on here post up as the solution they would endorse. I have a couple questions.
1. Would that be $20.00 for the vehicle, or per person?
2. How many kids are up there riding where you do in Canada? I'm trying to wrap my poor math skills around a family trying to promote our sport to the next couple generations and there is no way they could possibly manage it.
3. How much personal time would you be willing to donate to help manage the program? It will not run it's self, so are you thinking volunteers working the many jobs required, or would your program have employee's and management?
4. Would you plan to rent the equipment (groomers, trucks, porto-potties, etc) or would you turn to contractors and negotiate contracts every few years?
5. Finally, where would the start up money come from to get things rolling the first year?

I am NOT being difficult, I'm really interested in your working solutions to these questions, thank you!

TNT, how will registering in Idaho help your cause? Reciprocity has ended (initiated by us) and you would STILL be required to have a Sno Park Permit displayed in your vehicle which you would have to pay for as well. What have you gained?

Bag __________________
WSSA/SkiBenders











1... 20.00 per sled on groomed trails

2...some kids mostly teenagers.. pretty much varied terrain areas. not many kids

but i do not see that many at the areas i ride here. guess i do not ride the same areas as the young kids do. not sure on here or canada...but would guess i would not know as well as the areas i ride there are also not kid friendly

3 actually the programs pretty much run themselves with the clubs they have..pretty similar to the clubs we have here...in fact very similar

as for myself.... please do not bait me on this topic

4. the clubs up their buy their own equipment and have a business model as they have tenure for a certain area and are allowed to collect fees and get donations from the local supporting buisness community...and they also maintain
a nice network of kickass chalets on their network of trails that are maintained for sledders....by the clubs..who would of thought

5 .maybe get wssa off there butt to take donations...maybe do a fundraiser...maybe use the coin from this coming puyallup snow show and the past snowshows and do a trial type deal with the state and forest service. maybe down at greenwater.

you could start a llc and get a loan with a proper business plan.

problem is ..that here we feel we need the government to take care of us ,,when in fact it should just be us.

we are not used to that and have a hard time contemplating that fact.

What has allways been beyond me is why that wssa at the puyallup snowshow does not have saws or land use the first thing you see when you come in the gate or the main building......WHY?????????????

do they really care or is it just a potluck bunch???????????

we need some new direction or we will be done.

just my opinion to try something different..

HEY IF THE CANADIANS CAN DO IT

we should be able to also.....why not??????????

OK LAST EDIT...WE NEED A MORE PROGRESSIVE WSSA AND APPROACH TO THIS STUFF...OTHERWISE we will be lost in the dust......................
 
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WSSA votes for reg. fee increase

Topic #61, thank you JETJOHNSON, well said.
I also feel anybody who has worked with the State Park Winter Rec. Program would admit to how much they do, and how well they do it.
Side note, March 13, Tue. nite, Yakima Grooming Council meeting 7:00 pm.
West Valley Fire Station, 1000 Zier Rd. Yakima.
 
Any negative comments I have posted are directed toward Olympia not toward WSSA and its volunteers. I appreciate all the work you do to support the sport. At this time I am stricly a consumer. I bring nothing to the table besides paying for tabs and I don't even know if I am current with WSSA.

I regularly ride areas that either don't have a parking lot, are unplowed and certainly aren't groomed. Sometimes its rough but we survive. A fair tradeoff for not having to deal with the crowds.

I was not aware that tab fees have not increased in 8-10 years and a small increase seems valid to compensate for rising costs like diesel.

I would eagerly pay even more for a privately managed system. Maybe we could even work together with the forest circus to build some huts like we see in Canada!

Again...thank you volunteers that make this sport possible for everyone.
 
1... 20.00 per sled on groomed trails. Thank you

2...some kids mostly teenagers.. pretty much varied terrain areas. not many kids

but i do not see that many at the areas i ride here. guess i do not ride the same areas as the young kids do. not sure on here or canada...but would guess i would not know as well as the areas i ride there are also not kid friendly

If we took a family of 4 that rode 4 weekends a year, all with thier own sleds that would be $132 for registering the sleds (you don't think the state would forgo that do you?) $320 in trail fees, plus say 7 gals of gas per sled at $4 a gal times 4 weekends would be $448. We won't count vehicle gas or food, cause after we price them out of sledding they will hopefully do something else, so the family total would be $900. Or under the current fee system + the increase of $40 = $750.
I'm not sure if $150 increase would be a deal breaker or not ? What do you think?

3 actually the programs pretty much run themselves with the clubs they have..pretty similar to the clubs we have here...in fact very similar
NOTHING runs it'self. Nothing. Just curious, are you a club member? If so do you hold an office? And to answer, yes, and sorta, not an officer, but on the board.
as for myself.... please do not bait me on this topic.
Please answer, I'm not trying o bait you on any topic, I'm trying my hardest to include your idea and make sure I understand it enough to present it to others. Cause we aren't all sitting around on our butts, we are trying very hard to have a good working system.
4. the clubs up their buy their own equipment and have a business model as they have tenure for a certain area and are allowed to collect fees and get donations from the local supporting buisness community...and they also maintain
a nice network of kickass chalets on their network of trails that are maintained for sledders....by the clubs..who would of thought

A little googling came up with an average cost of 83,000 for a used Groomer, 22,000 for a used backhoe, and I know the local service charges us 26 a week to service each port-o-pottie.

Can anyone tell me how many of each we would need so I can come up with a total? Please? Thank you.
5 .maybe get wssa off there butt to take donations...maybe do a fundraiser...maybe use the coin from this coming puyallup snow show and the past snowshows and do a trial type deal with the state and forest service. maybe down at greenwater.

Maybe you don't know that a couple clubs and the WSSA have been fundraising the last few years to keep access open to area's like the Ahtanum and others, this has taken a tremendous amount of personal time and effort. That need is now being offset by the Discover Pass that people hate and don't want to support, because they don't realize that A FEW INDIVIDUALS AND BUSINESSES HAVE BEEN CARRYING THE COST FOR THEM FOR YEARS.

you could start a llc and get a loan with a proper business plan. This process I'm familiar with.

problem is ..that here we feel we need the government to take care of us ,,when in fact it should just be us.
Thinking of us, again, how much time would you be willing to add to the efforts of others that already are? Not baiting, really wanting an answer.[/QUOTE
]
we are not used to that and have a hard time contemplating that fact.

What has allways been beyond me is why that wssa at the puyallup snowshow does not have saws or land use the first thing you see when you come in the gate or the main building......WHY????????????? ANy WSSA member or SAWS member can attend any meeting they choose, and man a booth as they choose. Again, if I get it set up, can I count on you to help with setup, manning and teardown?
[/QUOTE]
do they really care or is it just a potluck bunch??????????? Have you been to a WSSA meeting, or is this assumption based on conjecture? No bait, please answer.
we need some new direction or we will be done.

just my opinion to try something different..

HEY IF THE CANADIANS CAN DO IT

we should be able to also.....why not??????????

OK LAST EDIT...WE NEED A MORE PROGRESSIVE WSSA AND APPROACH TO THIS STUFF...OTHERWISE we will be lost in the dust......................
Would you care to come to the next meeting and help us get straightened out? WSSA meetings are open to anyone, elections for this year just happened (we took time between brunch and lunch to do a little business)
Sending out surveys was pretty progressive. Looking for answers from the snowmobiling community to better support it was proactive. And listening to, and asking information from, everyone, isn't a form of baiting, it's a sincere effort to look at differant ideas and see what we can handle and what we can't
.

No effort to incite or bait you here. I don't believe in picking scabs online, please don't look at this that way. I'm not one of those arragant jerks that make suppositions that I have no facts for and bashes folks out of good intentions, but with ignorance, I'm really trying to gather information to add to the collective so we can come up with a constructive solution. I appreciate your help.

Bag
 
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I understand something has to be done. But, it would be nice if they could spread out the increase over a few years.

I agree completely 03, a phase in would have helped make this easier to accept and would let people budget it better.

I would also have liked to see a family option, or maybe a cap on older/smaller sleds. (not bashing anyone here, just thinking of the average kid sled)

Personally I think if someone can afford to buy a new sled and all the rage widgets every year or couple of years, then the tags shouldn't be a problem.

But I worry about the families that are trying to keep older iron running for the kids/grandkids.

Bag
 
The challenge here is it would decrease the number of registered snowmobiles and decrease overall revenue.

For the record I understand there are very good people that have volunteered and are watching over the state parks' management of the snowmobile fund... but the state parks charge 13% of the fund to administer it! I bet the same state employee(s) would be there if they no longer had a snowmobile fund to manage.

Also as we have seen, as long as there is not a balance in power in Olympia the current controlling party will do what ever they want including passing a lot of B S laws but not doing what they are suppose to be doing... passing a balanced budget and supporting education. They have not swept the dedicated funds but if you notice on the WSSA Web site, letters opposing this action are still being requested.

So why not the Canadian model?:canada: Dump the state's management and collect money at the trail head for grooming and parking lot clearing. My speculation in high use areas, you coasties (an old term for "people from Seattle...meaning ANYONE on the West side of the mountains..AKA "206ers"... I am kidding here:crutch: enough of the beatings) there would be more than enough money... in smaller areas (like ours) there would be little to no interest and it would be (like the old days) on your own to get to the mountains and ride... which was pretty cool because you could go all day and not see anyone.. and yea we dragged our kids along back then too.. and they followed in the big sled's tracks... got stuck a lot.. but still had fun.

So help me understand, why do we need big government to take care of our fund and fun? I say get the government out of the way (that saved 13%) and those who want groomed trails and plowed parking will figure out a way to do it... that is the :usa2: way!


I would love to get the state out of the mix....but we ride mostly on state land so that will be pretty much impossible. They want to be involved in the rulemaking...and of course the $$.

The Canadian model is even more $$...$100/year just for a trailpass if I remember correctly. And who would sit at a trailhead every weekend?? Not me.

I think our system will work even better with adequate funding and if people don't try to cheat the system. JMO-
 
I Support the increase

I strongly support the increase.

I think that those of you on here that dont support the increase would if you truly knew how the process worked.

All this government name calling, saying its a tax, saying you don't ride groomed trails, and making allegations are all signs of your lack of knowledge for the sport.
Its a pay to play sport.

The sport is slowly getting smaller and we need to raise the fees or decrease the program.

We have currently decreased the program by cutting it across the board. Eventually that is not going to work and the next step is that we close snow parks altogether. One by one until we have enough that we can afford.

This increase is a preventive way to keep from loosing the program. This fuel tax is just not going to be enough and snowpark permits too. Those two ways are great ways to generate revenue but the fact is they wont even dent the budget. Not to mention time.
The fuel tax took 9 years (+legislation) to get 4 cents. We are "entitled" to 14 more cents. We have spent at least 5 years trying to get that. If we keep wasting time the program will be long gone.
I like where I ride and would hate to not be able to ride there because I wasn't willing to pay $40 a year.
 
Im sorry to say, but what you want.... might not be to far away..... State Parks/Advisory committee has expressed interest and requested thought in alternative ways to accommodate the budget shortfall.=This was included "cutting" trails and "snow parks" that just do not see the use. If you like to ride an area that is currently managed by state parks likely there are land use agreements in place that allows you to ride there. There survey indicated that the Kittitas valley generates the most use and would be important to keep Just FYI
 
I would love to get the state out of the mix....but we ride mostly on state land so that will be pretty much impossible. They want to be involved in the rulemaking...and of course the $$.

Sorry, but the red bold statement above is not true for Washington State. Most of the land we ride on is federal managed land, with the majority of that federal land being Forest Service managed land.

Either way, I understand your point.
 
I strongly support the increase.

I think that those of you on here that dont support the increase would if you truly knew how the process worked.

All this government name calling, saying its a tax, saying you don't ride groomed trails, and making allegations are all signs of your lack of knowledge for the sport.
Its a pay to play sport.

The sport is slowly getting smaller and we need to raise the fees or decrease the program.

We have currently decreased the program by cutting it across the board. Eventually that is not going to work and the next step is that we close snow parks altogether. One by one until we have enough that we can afford.

This increase is a preventive way to keep from loosing the program. This fuel tax is just not going to be enough and snowpark permits too. Those two ways are great ways to generate revenue but the fact is they wont even dent the budget. Not to mention time.
The fuel tax took 9 years (+legislation) to get 4 cents. We are "entitled" to 14 more cents. We have spent at least 5 years trying to get that. If we keep wasting time the program will be long gone.
I like where I ride and would hate to not be able to ride there because I wasn't willing to pay $40 a year.

my last post.... The controlling WA State party has kept the dedicated gas tax from us so again what is keeping them from taking it all...if they decide to sweep the funds.. there are not enough GOP in Olympia to stop it.

You are not stating the facts... you will not pay $40 under the proposal rather a total of $73

You are correct... when you point out snowmobiling is a, "sport... slowly getting smaller" Please understand basic economics... you do not gain numbers by increasing a tax on a given activity... so does this mean as the snowmobile numbers continue to decrease you will want the snowmobile license tax raised even more? To $100? $200? $300 a sled. Do the math it is not substainable..

The threat of closing sno-parks if there is not more money... okay this is a failed policy from the get go...lets say the only parks groomed are on the West side of the state.... can people on the East side then opt out of licensing his or her sleds if in a closed sno park/groomed area? If you close sno parks it will again decrease snowmobile licensing (there I didn't call it a "tax"). There will be no motivation for people to license their sleds if they do not see any services received... and LEO at least here have better things to do than chase people for snowmobile licenses

Big government solutions and taxing to increase revenues will not be a lasting solution... think out of the box...THE EASY WAY IS TO RAISE THE TAX ON THE USER... there are other good ideas... not my idea but I like the Canadian model... then it is a true "pay to play" if you are one that needs groomed trails and a plowed lot pay for it!
 
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