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which spindles?
- Thread starter dktraw
- Start date
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Holz spindles set like that on mine too. It is not bad when it is on the ground. I just adjusted mine as close to flat as they would go and the sled handled fine.
It also has to be on the ground to set the tow and I never shortened the tie rods so not sure why you would have to.
It also has to be on the ground to set the tow and I never shortened the tie rods so not sure why you would have to.
MH:
The IQR spindles don't come with the spacer/bushing you show. It's not shown in the parts fiche either.
These are flat on the bottom and are recessed on the top where the tie rod connects. Would I need to use washers to build up the approx. 3/8" that the spacer would?
And how would that affect camber?
Z-Man:
The problem is I have adjusted the jam nut as far as it will go and it's not near flat. Did yours look the same way when it was up in the air?
I know about being on the ground to adjust the toe in/out, but as it sits right now I have approx 4" of toe in and my tie rods are already already all the way in...no way to pull the back of the skis in.
ttreewalkerr:
I don't think this will affect your 08 spindles at all, it's the IQR/Holz spindle type that I am having issues with.
The IQR spindles don't come with the spacer/bushing you show. It's not shown in the parts fiche either.
These are flat on the bottom and are recessed on the top where the tie rod connects. Would I need to use washers to build up the approx. 3/8" that the spacer would?
And how would that affect camber?
Z-Man:
The problem is I have adjusted the jam nut as far as it will go and it's not near flat. Did yours look the same way when it was up in the air?
I know about being on the ground to adjust the toe in/out, but as it sits right now I have approx 4" of toe in and my tie rods are already already all the way in...no way to pull the back of the skis in.
ttreewalkerr:
I don't think this will affect your 08 spindles at all, it's the IQR/Holz spindle type that I am having issues with.
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I'll do some digging on this...
2112..... can you post a photo of your spindle install taken from multi angles?
This may be the situation where the Holz and the IQR look similar... but they may not be identical and this could be the issue.
Try this... lift the front of the sled off the ground.
Remove the front shock on one side and let the arm hang.
Leaving the steering alone... lift and lower the ski... the toe-in/out should remain essentially the same through the full range of motion. If it does not... the position/length of the tie rods is not correct.
Dropping the tie rods with the proper spacer could fix this.
If you are reading this and have not purchased the spindles yet... IMO... your best option is to go with the 09/10 Dragon Spindles which is essentially the same as the Holz in regards to ski trail which is the what give the steering effort and "push" in the corners... The Dragons are about the same weight as well which you would never notice on the 900 anyway. The non Dragon Models and the 2008 Dragons had the same spindle without the lightweight cutouts milled into them.
2112..... can you post a photo of your spindle install taken from multi angles?
This may be the situation where the Holz and the IQR look similar... but they may not be identical and this could be the issue.
Try this... lift the front of the sled off the ground.
Remove the front shock on one side and let the arm hang.
Leaving the steering alone... lift and lower the ski... the toe-in/out should remain essentially the same through the full range of motion. If it does not... the position/length of the tie rods is not correct.
Dropping the tie rods with the proper spacer could fix this.
If you are reading this and have not purchased the spindles yet... IMO... your best option is to go with the 09/10 Dragon Spindles which is essentially the same as the Holz in regards to ski trail which is the what give the steering effort and "push" in the corners... The Dragons are about the same weight as well which you would never notice on the 900 anyway. The non Dragon Models and the 2008 Dragons had the same spindle without the lightweight cutouts milled into them.
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I know the upper arms are the same on the 2006 RMK and the 2010 dragon...I cross checked the part numbers.
I wonder if the IQR Lower arms are a bit shorter than the Dragons, that would allow the bottom of the IQR spindle to be drawn in towards the sled which would eliminate all that negative camber
I wonder if the IQR Lower arms are a bit shorter than the Dragons, that would allow the bottom of the IQR spindle to be drawn in towards the sled which would eliminate all that negative camber
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From your photos ... the IQR Spindles are diff from the HRP.
The tie rod end mounting boss sits considerably higher than the Stock or HRP.
You will need to space that tie rod end considerably down from where it is... How much, I cant say.
When it is moved down into the correct position... the toe in will come back to where it is supposed to be and NOT change during range of motion of the front suspension
You may not have enough thread on the tie rod end to take up the distance of the spacers you need to use... Have a look at the steer arm on your spindle compared to the HRP .. you will notice that it takes a Bump up from the top of the spindle on the IQR and is flat on the HRP.
HRP confirmed that they no longer have any spindles to sell and will not be making any more.
For those that want to improve their steering on the 2008 and previous model years...HRP's suggestion is to run the 2009/10 Dragon spindles as the geometry is almost identical.. and the IQR was not.
The tie rod end mounting boss sits considerably higher than the Stock or HRP.
You will need to space that tie rod end considerably down from where it is... How much, I cant say.
When it is moved down into the correct position... the toe in will come back to where it is supposed to be and NOT change during range of motion of the front suspension
You may not have enough thread on the tie rod end to take up the distance of the spacers you need to use... Have a look at the steer arm on your spindle compared to the HRP .. you will notice that it takes a Bump up from the top of the spindle on the IQR and is flat on the HRP.
HRP confirmed that they no longer have any spindles to sell and will not be making any more.
For those that want to improve their steering on the 2008 and previous model years...HRP's suggestion is to run the 2009/10 Dragon spindles as the geometry is almost identical.. and the IQR was not.
All that being said... I think your problems may lie in the narrow RMK A arms and the differerences in the ball joints, arm lengths etc used in the IQR.
If you were to take a long 3/8 bolt and put it in thru the top ball joint hole in the spindle... would you be able to push it thru into the lower hole as well?
The tie rods, as you know, do not effect camber.
If you were to take a long 3/8 bolt and put it in thru the top ball joint hole in the spindle... would you be able to push it thru into the lower hole as well?
The tie rods, as you know, do not effect camber.
The IQR Top & Bottom A-arms are actually a lot longer than the RMK's... I think the IQR has a 43-45" wide front end.
Yes, I checked my 06 spindle too and you'd be able to pass it all the way through as well.
I hope that everyone who reads this thread will read from start to finish. I bought these based on info I saw in this thread.
Someone stated that the Holz and IQR spindles were the same and I ran with it, my fault for not doing my due diligence and checking it out.
As usual, like in every thread here on SnoWest, I learned a lot from all involved in helping me and those who gave their opinions and input in the thread before I posted my issue.
Thanks to MH for clearing this up and to everyone who offered their knowledge to help!
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M
monster715
Well-known member
That does make sense. I know I said that mine fit on with no problem but I have a Switchback with the longer A-Arms. I apologize if you got the wrong information from me - I did not take the shorter arms in consideration.
No worries Monster715
As I re read the thread after all this was determined, I saw your post and thought "Ahhh, Switchback, not RMK or Dragon" and it all made sense.
Just one of those things where 2 people were talking about the same thing that was completely different. LOL
Thanks for your input in all the threads you've offered it.
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From looking at your photos your skis sit exactly like mine did with the Holz spindles and there was not a way to ever adjust them to run completely flat.
I will have a set of Holz spindles up in WA and when I come to pick up the sled I might have to swing by your place with them.
The Holz did have a spacer that pressed into the top or bottom depending on if you had an 05 or the 06 or newer.
Did a search and here are some pictures of the actual Holz Spindles and there is a definite difference in them.
I will have a set of Holz spindles up in WA and when I come to pick up the sled I might have to swing by your place with them.
The Holz did have a spacer that pressed into the top or bottom depending on if you had an 05 or the 06 or newer.
Did a search and here are some pictures of the actual Holz Spindles and there is a definite difference in them.
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First off... Could someone post up the photo/instructions of the camber adjustment process from the factory manual... I don't have that with me.
There is supposed to be negative-camber in all the Polaris IQ/PRO sleds...ie the spindles lean inward.
The skis do not sit flat on the ground when adjusted properly.
There is supposed to be negative-camber in all the Polaris IQ/PRO sleds...ie the spindles lean inward.
The skis do not sit flat on the ground when adjusted properly.
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So, To get back to dktraw's original question.
The Timbersled is a moot point... you must buy the complete front end to use those.
I've use the Holz on multiple builds for myself and for others.... they workded well and I was able to adjust the camber to the factory settings everytime. As mentioned above, the HRP spindles are no longer made by HRP... you may be able to find a used pair or someone that has them on their shelf.
But... Keep this in mind. HRP themselves has said that the factory Polaris Dragon spindles from 2009/10 are almost identical in geometry and weight to thier spindles... so much so that they said the rider would not notice a difference... Polaris did a good job in learing from the HRP design which carried thru into the PRO.
Z-Broz has a spindle available but it is targeted at the IQR market and is the same part for the IQR/SB.. Nate could not confirm if toe-in/out remainded constant thru the travel on an RMK install.
IMO...For about $240 (street price), I agree with HRP that the OEM Dragon spindles are the way to go.
The Timbersled is a moot point... you must buy the complete front end to use those.
I've use the Holz on multiple builds for myself and for others.... they workded well and I was able to adjust the camber to the factory settings everytime. As mentioned above, the HRP spindles are no longer made by HRP... you may be able to find a used pair or someone that has them on their shelf.
But... Keep this in mind. HRP themselves has said that the factory Polaris Dragon spindles from 2009/10 are almost identical in geometry and weight to thier spindles... so much so that they said the rider would not notice a difference... Polaris did a good job in learing from the HRP design which carried thru into the PRO.
Z-Broz has a spindle available but it is targeted at the IQR market and is the same part for the IQR/SB.. Nate could not confirm if toe-in/out remainded constant thru the travel on an RMK install.
IMO...For about $240 (street price), I agree with HRP that the OEM Dragon spindles are the way to go.
Eric, I installed 3 sets of HRP spindles last season on 09 RMK Dragons.
All 3 were a tad over on the max side of the camber. In fact, about an inch more than the 2.5 inch spec below the bottom of the opposite spindle.
A longer upper spindle bolt would be ideal to help get the camber back into spec. You could also machine a little material off of the inside of the upper a-arm. In fact, I removed an upper a-arm on an 09 last season that had had this done prior, obviously to help with this situation. Sled came from Carls.
I had not seen this large of camber in the previous installs I had done with HRP spindles. Those were all 05 and 06's and none ended up like the 09's last season I worked on.
As for the toe in issue on this sled, I haven't run into this. I think something else is going on. Either there is some mix up with parts, have radius rods been replaced at one time or was the bulkhead repair for the steering post bracket done correctly? Is it possible this repair changed the steering geometry or the drag link is out of adjustment?
Maybe reinstalling the original spindles to verify other possibilities aren't causing issues is in order here???
All 3 were a tad over on the max side of the camber. In fact, about an inch more than the 2.5 inch spec below the bottom of the opposite spindle.
A longer upper spindle bolt would be ideal to help get the camber back into spec. You could also machine a little material off of the inside of the upper a-arm. In fact, I removed an upper a-arm on an 09 last season that had had this done prior, obviously to help with this situation. Sled came from Carls.
I had not seen this large of camber in the previous installs I had done with HRP spindles. Those were all 05 and 06's and none ended up like the 09's last season I worked on.
As for the toe in issue on this sled, I haven't run into this. I think something else is going on. Either there is some mix up with parts, have radius rods been replaced at one time or was the bulkhead repair for the steering post bracket done correctly? Is it possible this repair changed the steering geometry or the drag link is out of adjustment?
Maybe reinstalling the original spindles to verify other possibilities aren't causing issues is in order here???
The Camber does not concern me... That would be the same with the factory spindle. so long as the bolt holes are in the same line.
The huge amount (4" claimed above) of toe in is what gets me.... there is supposed to be slight toe out.
Try the simple test above.. the position of the tie rod on the spindle is correct when the toe-in/out stays consistent throughout the range of travel.
I don't believe that the position of the tie rod end mount is the same on the IQ Racer spindle... both in side/side position and in height location... The IQR spindle has an elevated "arm" for the tie rod attachment.. the top of the Holz is flat.
Also, it might not be a good idea to use a lot of washers under the tie rod end (if that is even possible with the length of the tie-rod-end mounting stud... that could put too much shear load on the tie-rod-end mounting stud. The HRP spacer extends into the spindle arm itself and ties this together. (Z-man... could you pop out one of your HRP spacers and snap a photo??)
Also, please note that with the installation of HRP Spindles...the camber measurement is different that the stock. (note this is a measurement regarding reference points... NOT actual camber angles)
Stock Polaris Measurement is 2.17" ± 0.31" from alignment bar as specified.
With HRP Spindles...That is 3.00" ± 0.31 from the alignment bar.
The huge amount (4" claimed above) of toe in is what gets me.... there is supposed to be slight toe out.
Try the simple test above.. the position of the tie rod on the spindle is correct when the toe-in/out stays consistent throughout the range of travel.
I don't believe that the position of the tie rod end mount is the same on the IQ Racer spindle... both in side/side position and in height location... The IQR spindle has an elevated "arm" for the tie rod attachment.. the top of the Holz is flat.
Also, it might not be a good idea to use a lot of washers under the tie rod end (if that is even possible with the length of the tie-rod-end mounting stud... that could put too much shear load on the tie-rod-end mounting stud. The HRP spacer extends into the spindle arm itself and ties this together. (Z-man... could you pop out one of your HRP spacers and snap a photo??)
Also, please note that with the installation of HRP Spindles...the camber measurement is different that the stock. (note this is a measurement regarding reference points... NOT actual camber angles)
Stock Polaris Measurement is 2.17" ± 0.31" from alignment bar as specified.
With HRP Spindles...That is 3.00" ± 0.31 from the alignment bar.
These are IQR spindles on RMK arms... with RMK steering linkages and rods.
I think yours were HRP brand RMK spindles??? (not the stock or IQR)
If you were taking 2.5" to the bottom of the spindle... you may be off by about .75 inches too much with an HRP spindle or 1.5" with the stock spindle.
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Correct and that's what I was saying. I've seen 05 an 06 mix-ups with radius rods in the past. Is 2112 the original owner? I ran into this with my 06 Dragon where the original owner had mixed up radius rods/arms with a-arms, etc. I ended up just buying a complete Holz set up.
Hasn't Sean used these IQR spindles?
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