What's Happening To Big Bores?

[AdrenalineAddict]

What I failed to mention is the well set-up 03 800 is in fact being compared to a well set-up 08 Dragon. Both are piped, clutched nearly perfect, dragon has been re-mapped with EZ-Ride lightweight suspension. In a powder climb the XP's we've seen and the well set-up dragon don't climb or perform any better than 03 technology. I don't believe the 03 800 I've been referring to is an anomaly because two others run just as well. It seems to me that riding has become more of a social event than a competitive event and out the door the modsleds went. When my son and I used to line up and drag up the mountain there would always be several sledders in the area that would come join in and we would have one heck of a race on our hands. These days nobody joins in and nobody seems to care if their sled works well or poorly, it's almost like the competitive spirit is dead. Give me a good ski to ski race and I'm having fun. I used to ride with several people (there's still a few left) where we would go out and beat on each other all day long. The tall tales at the bar were who kicked who's azz. The riding I've done this season reminds me more of homobiling than snowmobiling.

 

[OuraySledder]

I'm not trying to create some sort of pissing match here or brag about how a sled runs, what I'm a little bewildered about is what you are saying. Many people including yourself are claiming that the sleds have made a big jump in performance the last few years, that's something I haven't seen. If anything I've witnessed in step in the opposite direction. I ride with a couple well set-up 03 800 Poos. They consistently outperform the XP's and Dragons of today. A few years ago many were building mods to outperform these 800 Poos, today people seem to be happy with outdated performance. I guess maybe we've hit a plateau where 150'sh horsepower is all the manufacturers are going to deliver. It used to be many riders wanted more, now a lot of those same people are content.

Yep, you need to define well set up. The 800 Poo's I ride with and the one I used to own can't keep up with a new chassis sled with a 700 in it. Both the D700 and M7 are 140hp stock, more than an Edge 800 and with less wieght.

Like I posted, we have switched riders, three guys on the stock M7 spanked the two slightly modded 800 Edges, all three of us have lots of time on the 800 Edge.

No contest intended here either but I will never buy an old style chassis again, and I think that is why they languish on the market. They are still great machines but an M, Raw IQ, Rev or XP is just so much more fun to ride, even with less power, the dinosaurs are dying off.

My Edge was dead reliable for years and loads of fun but now I want a warranty on my $11,000 sled too. I'm just saying that for most of us a new ride is more fun, less hassle and amazingly capable.

 

[summitchaser]

I have a question for you big bore guys. In your experiences what kind of engine life do you see out of a big bore? They have a reputation of having a short engine life. If you maintain them well and don't abuse or neglect them what kind of engine life can you generally expect? Do they really require more maintanence than a stocker? It probaly wouldn't take much convincing to get me to buy a 200 hp sled for 10,000. Are there big Bores out there that don't require a mix of pump and race fuel mix?

 

[obr]

there are a couple pf reasons I can see.

More and more people are going 4stroke turbo. 250+hp and basically not wrenching on the mountain is hard to beat. Alot of the old BIG bore guys out there are now getting old (sorry) and wanting to wrench as little as possible, but still be able to spank every guy on the mountain.

Another reason, is that most big bores doesn't do what they promise hp wise. I'm sorry to say it, but we call it American hp over here when a big hp motor comes over that's supposed to deliver 200+hp, and only delivers 160-70.

Now, a reason that hasn't been covered, is the fact that alot of people have been burned from BS companies like PSI, and now Bikeman performance. Fancy looking parts, but can't run with a f-ing stocker, even if you wrench on them all winter..(you have to wrench even if you want it or not).

 

[mod03rmk800]

my .02 cents,

The "mountain sled" came from the modders. They were built to be able to climb and travel thru deep SOFT snow to get back to the out of the way stuff. Alot of this stuff could be cobbled together frankenstein stuff to the deep wallet tripples.
Now I feel that alot of these guys are done with spending the money and enduring the headache of getting thru a day of riding when a now-a-day sled can get back in there and put down a decent climb without the hourly tinkering.
Also the new motors I believe don't leave much to big bore except the m1000. So for the few guys that really need that kind of power a turbo is it. And for 90% of the riders out there, the recent stockers with a pipe is all they really need and can handle. I'm am also sure that if the sleds were in the $6000-$7000 dollar range, that there would be all kinds of big bore/turbo stuff all over the mountain(literally).

Now I gotta support AdrenalineAddict in that my 03 poo with port/pipe and head(which is what you get basically with recent stockers) along with the tall camo track(again recent stockers) I have yet to see a 700 out do it. Canned up rev 8's and piped m8's close a nytro far behind. Only seen 1 m1000 and he was staying on the tracked stuff. What I do think you are getting now is a much more comfortable/handling ride CLOSE to a slightly modded pre 05 sled.

 

[mod03rmk800]

Also one for the motorhead guys.

How many of you when you just can't quite get up to the top to crest over go back down to the bottom remove your helmet and yell up to the guys:

"IT HAS A THREE YEAR FULL WARRANTY THOUGH, SEE YA BACK AT THE TRUCK!"

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

Also one for the motorhead guys.

How many of you when you just can't quite get up to the top to crest over go back down to the bottom remove your helmet and yell up to the guys:

"IT HAS A THREE YEAR FULL WARRANTY THOUGH, SEE YA BACK AT THE TRUCK!"

LMFAO

As far as the question regarding big bore maintenence goes, I can't speak for anything other the UBR motors I have. My big bore requires a new set of pistons every 1,600 miles only because the ring land wears and you risk snagging a ring with all the play in it. Other than the piston issue, my UBR 900 appears to be easier on crankshafts and cases than a stocker (can't explain why). 30% race fuel is certainly a pain in the rear though.

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

I am a firm beleiver in the quality of factory stuff is so good that nobody wants anymore. a stock M8 D8 or XP8 will take most way farther than they will ever go. there will always be somebody with a bigger faster sled, and as snowmobiling has become more popular there are many more people who dont want to be that guy, they just wanna ride.

and with chasis design becoming much better it seems many more people can ride much more technical terrain that is not just raw HP and track, its setup. this makes people feal no need to go higher.

all in all i think its just way more and more average joe, stock with a can type of guys apearing that make mod sleds seem few and far between now.

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

I think obr may have hit the nail on the head with his "getting old comment". We may be seeing a culture change of sorts. Ski-Doo'in it could very well be onto something also with his dilution theory. I'm getting old myself, nearly solid gray with a bad back and weak knees, but the competitive spirit hasn't waned. I used to enjoy riding popular areas with hundreds of sledders, this used to make for some fun shootouts. Nowadays it seems as though out of say, fifty sledders, only a couple are interested in a shootout.

 

[CO 2.0]

OuraySledder, I hope my new 09 Dragon 800 155 will out high mark my 05 edge 800 159 mod. My edge has all kinds of goodies on it and the only sled I've ridden with that could out climb my 800 edge was an M1000 and Summit 1000. Haven't ridden against an XP or D8. I really am proud of the power the old Liberty 800 can still put out.
D7 155, Rev Summit 800, Nitro 1000 153, M8 153, zx 800 summit 151, 800efi MC 159, none of these could get to my highmarks. D7 and M8 were the closest. Only reason I'm switching over is for more ease of throwing the sled over in the new chassis. The 5.1 track is also more floaty over the series IV on the edge...

 

[daron800]

i dont know about you guys but i kind of enjoy being able to play with hills and working hte balls off my sled to get as high as possible. that is whats fun for me is to see what the absolute limits of my sled are and what i can do. i cant see the fun in pointing up and feathering the throttle up most hills. how do you know if you advancing as a rider if you can fly over the top every single time?????

 

[colojer]

The power of the turbos are unreal and truely enjoyable, but there is something to be said about a stock sled with all kinds of reliabilty and cheap pump gas is awfully nice.

 

[BEPM7]

I have an M7 with a 800 kit on it and its reliable, runs pump gas, no tuning issues, and is guaranteed more power than bolting on a bunch of junk that doesn't do anything. I bought it because I wanted more power, didn't want to buy a new sled, and didn't want any reliability issues.

Still, I used to see lots of custom PSI / Polaris triples in the hills but not many in the last couple years...which I think comes back to the stock chassis being better or equivalent to anything that is custom built.

 

[Idcatman3]

We've had a 975 big bore King Cat running all year, no problems at all with the motor. Runs pump gas, oil injection etc. Never had to turn a wrench on it after the third ride getting carbs tuned. We finally broke a chain on it last week. It totally outperforms the stock Kings and will be right there with a '08 M1000 with a pipe and head.

Also building a big bore triple based on the same thing, welded two cases together, etc.. Should be ready to go for next season.

Mostly though, it comes down to I like working on sleds and seeing what can be built, not bought. We've got less money in 3 big bore kings than my brother has in his M1000.

1462^^ That qualify as a big bore?

 

[high time]

They're all the same guys!

The guys who were building the big bore climbers are the ones who now have the Yami turbos. When they update the market gets full off their old sleds and the price drops.
How whould you feel to build a big bore two stroke , only to low mark the turbos? It's not quite as rewarding as it used to be.
Yes, there is a few of us that still build them, But you better not mind going thru the work only to come and see the good climbs tracked up by a turbo.
Personally, I like mine, but I'm weird.

Owen

 

[Beels]

The guys who were building the big bore climbers are the ones who now have the Yami turbos. When they update the market gets full off their old sleds and the price drops.
How whould you feel to build a big bore two stroke , only to low mark the turbos? It's not quite as rewarding as it used to be.
Yes, there is a few of us that still build them, But you better not mind going thru the work only to come and see the good climbs tracked up by a turbo.
Personally, I like mine, but I'm weird.

Owen

Owen nailed it.

My 999 Cat big bore runs great, for what it is. These boosted 4 strokes are in a whole other league, performance and reliability wise. I'll always remember the first boosted 4 stroke I saw. We were at the terraces in Smith's Fork near Afton, WY and TJ's showed up with one of their first RX-1's they had done up. No one even thought about trying to climb straight up there, but this thing beat on it like a government mule.

 

[xsummitx]

are there a bunch of crack smokers here...i own a new m7 and a 1997 rmk mod and the 700 a/c does ride nicer on the bumps and tkaing the big air thats it...the poo eats the m7 for lunch all day long....in climbs,straight out drags,boondocking etc...the new sled is a big disapointment.....i bought the mod used and can part it out for more than i paid and it has been spot on reliable with the added cost of 110 and tinkering to change altitude is abit more work when changing riding areas,but the m7 eats oils like a pig at $40 a gal that makes a days riding cost the same and when i sell it i am going to lose cash big..not to mention the mod gets better fuel economy.....i rode with all new sleds this year xp's m1000's nitro's and i tried them all....imo i will take the old iron..the warranty is nice but if they dont break then what good is warranty(994 miles not a prob...mod has 6000 and running strong).....i will take a bb mod right now straight up trade for my m7.....so i am going to strongly disagree the new sleds are hit or miss on reliability....the 2 xp's in the group lots of problems,nitro good bottom end not enough on the top and heavy,m's sh!tty handling in anythnig but powder...so for cost to permformance used bb mod for 6 or under to 9+ for new stock...my money is going to another used mod .....x

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

xsummitx, Amen!!! It's good to know there is somebody else on the planet that is seeing what I've been seeing. I don't know if this new so-so technology is catching on because of "Power Of Suggestion" or "Marketing Genius" both are powerful tools.

 

[whittaker727]

This is a good thread...and a good question.

I can shed a little first hand experience.

For the last 3 years, been riding a 2003 Rev based mod with an 1150 UBR, VE tunnel, aftermarket susp, etc, etc...Sled before that was a polaris chassis with an 809 tripple, full susp, etc, etc...

This year, finally got tired of tweaking, tuning, and wrenching on the 2 strokes and older chassis (I know, Rev isn't that old). On the best powder weekend of the last 10 years (in WA) hit a tree and wasted the front end on the rev. Buddy I was riding with had a bone stock 2007 800 Rev he let me ride. Couldn't believe how much fun I had...didn't turn a wrench all day. Rode more that day than any other day before that. That was it for me. Until.....

Had the opportunity to by a S/C Nytro with all the lightweight goodies already on it, so I went for it. Got a great deal, and I'm loving every minute of riding the new sled. I love the turn key of the 4 stroke. No more oil. No more jetting changes. The bonus is how well this sled handles the boondocking, trees (we ride a LOT of trees in WA), on/off throttle situations. Has the low end grunt of the 1150, but with more top end that I can hold WOT for 10 minutes if I want (not a lot of HiPerf 2 strokes can do that).

I agree with OuraySledder...stock for stock, the new sleds are the equal or better than the lightly modded sleds of just a few years ago. And the chassis are 100% better handling (maybe not if you just want to be a point and shoot hillclimber...hard to beat the stability of the Edge chassis).

Now, I'm trying to sell my Rev, which has close to $30k invested in it. Not a lot of interest, even for less than $10k.

my 2 c
modsledr

you must have bought Rob's Mellow Yellow...good for you, I missed out on that one

 

[xsummitx]

xsummitx, Amen!!! It's good to know there is somebody else on the planet that is seeing what I've been seeing. I don't know if this new so-so technology is catching on because of "Power Of Suggestion" or "Marketing Genius" both are powerful tools.

yes the media says it is the best so buy one..i listen and did....what a mistake...and now the money i am going to lose selling the "hype" machine would bought a couple of seasons of 110.i even had second thoughts about the new and all my friends"you will love it buy it buy it"....it just sits now waiting for a new owner....i am going back to my old philosiphy if is not broken dont fix it....i love my mod.....long live big hp normally asp. 2 strokes...ps i have small hands and i can get to every part on my mod...i can not even get to the spark plugs on this m,and the xp has so much in the way you would need to be tom thumb to fix anything with out tearing it all apart.