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Ultralord
Well-known member
I filled out that one 2.
I was just going to keep my mouth shut about this its early But the dam rocks that were blocking the trail outa snow park at stampede sent me over the edge.
Venting....plows and why we pay taxes
- Thread starter winter brew
- Start date
I filled out that one 2.
I was just going to keep my mouth shut about this its early But the dam rocks that were blocking the trail outa snow park at stampede sent me over the edge.
I filled out that one 2.
I was just going to keep my mouth shut about this its early But the dam rocks that were blocking the trail outa snow park at stampede sent me over the edge.
You'll find the same rocks up Anderson by the bathroom...they were a solid 2-3' tall in parts and I just wondered what poor bugger was gonna clip one of those when the snow was just covering them up for the first time! Plain stupid
dang boys, didnt want to start a war !!
I know, we've been thru this for years on how the money is spent, I just wanted the people who DIDN'T KNOW how the system works, It's really not "broken", like anything it takes money to run it, Nothing cost the same as it did 5 years ago, Just so you know, we are running a system with the same money we have gotten for that long., EVERYTHING has gone up , except the money we collect from our tabs and gas tax money. Hey, I for one think we do a half decent job with what we have and who we have to run it thanks to a lot of dedicated loyal snowmobile voluenteers who spend countless hours traversing the state for all the funding meetings, work parties, signing, trail repair ect ect ect. Unfortunately as we all know, the entire state is run by King, Pierce and Snohomish Counties, The Lucky people who live in Eastern Washington, dont always get a fair shake thats for sure
I know, we've been thru this for years on how the money is spent, I just wanted the people who DIDN'T KNOW how the system works, It's really not "broken", like anything it takes money to run it, Nothing cost the same as it did 5 years ago, Just so you know, we are running a system with the same money we have gotten for that long., EVERYTHING has gone up , except the money we collect from our tabs and gas tax money. Hey, I for one think we do a half decent job with what we have and who we have to run it thanks to a lot of dedicated loyal snowmobile voluenteers who spend countless hours traversing the state for all the funding meetings, work parties, signing, trail repair ect ect ect. Unfortunately as we all know, the entire state is run by King, Pierce and Snohomish Counties, The Lucky people who live in Eastern Washington, dont always get a fair shake thats for sure
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Wow has this thread takin off. All this cause somebody got stuck in the snow.
I don't know anything for sure except I sure love to snowmobile. Happy Thanksgiving You All!
I don't know anything for sure except I sure love to snowmobile. Happy Thanksgiving You All!
good I am glad you do your part, but I still cant see what seattle has to do with a snopark in gold creek, I agree with dan that we need to up our sled fees, we have worked so long on the same money that it gets sick after a while,,,,,,,yes I agree we should charge out of state riders, but as I understand it that would take an act of congress ( now you can vent about the state goverment and I will agree with you on this fact) I have been riding in this area for almost 42 years, done my time as a wssa district rep ,spent over 8 years on the grooming counsel, helped orginize the very first winter sports search and rescue team, which is the base for the SAR team that is now working, spent countless hours going to meetings, with the forest service trying to get a good shake on riding areas ect..............but now due to health and age I have just about stopped riding,,,,BUT I still work as much as I can to further our sport........however now I am in Az for the winter so you guys can rip up the snow and snoparks as much as you want........................
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nikeholley
Well-known member
Yup... we did... same answers to the same questions...
So, oh wise ones... how do we fix/modify/adjust this age old problem/question/concern..??..
Nike
ya they won't plow the roads with our tab money, they won't give our snow plow guys the money we pay in, but let me tell you they don't hesitate to give you a ticket if you do anything even questionable. like not driving up high enough, or untill you slide off the side of the mountain. i think you get my point its crazy we pay this money to have it wasted
Explain how it is wasted? What do you think the money is used for? Please explain.
I just think as many snowmobilers as there are in this state there should be enough money to pay our trail groomers to at least come out and groom the trails more than a half dozen times a year. I was at the baker shootout last year and that groomer was on his own dollar for that event, to me there should be more than enough money if you took the money we pay for tabs and camping at snow parks to pay for this. I may be wrong or misinformed so lets have comments on this. How does every body else feel.
I think we should be paying more than we do.....$35 a year???
There should be enough $$ in the fund to pay groomers and plows enough that they can profitably operate....not just scrape by and have to pick and choose when to groom and just do it because of their dedication to the sport and the people involved. Enough $$ to plow/groom from first rideable snow to June and any $$ left over can carry to the following year to account for the variance in seasons.
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Ultralord
Well-known member
Pay pay pay--- I would love to pay but someone needs to decide how much and how to collect. I think they should do a test and collect trail pass money at the trail head and use that to pay the Groomer. The groomer strikes a deal that he gets paid his normal fee and as snow dictates he does the trails untill the pass money runs out and the remainder if any due to low snow years is spent on the trails and clean up and a reserve account is set up to deal with large snow years. The reson that we have rough trails is that there is very little money in the work because they have no body to take charge and handle it. I bet 9 outa 10 riders would pay 15-20 per day if the trails were managed and groomed for maybe 20 weeks per year.
just for your info,
There has not been any extra money left over for years?? dont know where anyone ever got that idea. We use all that we have , we just dont have enough, you have to remember, this is a state wide program, Our budget pays for a for A WHOLE LOT MORE than just grooming and plowing. I can show you the budget for the entire state, Sanicans, snoparks (do you even know how many we have thru out the state) , Groomer repairs for all the state cats, 2 and 1/2 people to run the program, law enforcement for area's that would have none, all the signs and trail markers, computers and office equipment to run it, permits to use private and public lands, and on and on. You have to remember, we are a stand alone program , we get no money out of the state budget, we have to pay for everything snowmobile related. think of all the saftey issues, all the different agencies to deal with , It's huge and expensive, There is a whole lot more than just grooming and plowing to pay for, Ok, sorry for the soap box, but it's all the truth.
There has not been any extra money left over for years?? dont know where anyone ever got that idea. We use all that we have , we just dont have enough, you have to remember, this is a state wide program, Our budget pays for a for A WHOLE LOT MORE than just grooming and plowing. I can show you the budget for the entire state, Sanicans, snoparks (do you even know how many we have thru out the state) , Groomer repairs for all the state cats, 2 and 1/2 people to run the program, law enforcement for area's that would have none, all the signs and trail markers, computers and office equipment to run it, permits to use private and public lands, and on and on. You have to remember, we are a stand alone program , we get no money out of the state budget, we have to pay for everything snowmobile related. think of all the saftey issues, all the different agencies to deal with , It's huge and expensive, There is a whole lot more than just grooming and plowing to pay for, Ok, sorry for the soap box, but it's all the truth.
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Ultralord
Well-known member
As a general rule I dont think they waste the money maybe missmange it and they are missguided but I dont think that they have bad intent. I just think they have a lack of strong leadership to give the trail and park system the attention that they deserve and that we all want.
we've made huge cuts the last 3 years
We've had to cut out a lot of programs in the motorized program, all the groomers took pay cuts thru out the state, 3 years in a row, we cut a bunch of law enforcement programs, cut back on sanicans in some area's, the plowing program had to take big cuts as well, not to mention alot of trails that were getting groomed and funded under priority 5 had to be cut because we just did not have the money to run them. Trust me a lot of the "fat" has been taken out the last few years. We have a new Winter Rec Administrator, (Pamela) who has been living , eating and breathing this snowmobile budget for over the last year. ( and IMO she's been doing a great job) Thats all she does is manage our program and the non motorized, it's not like they just go out and waste our money, They are very much on top of it and it is all public record. And charging more is not that easy, Wish it was and we'd be fine, We are dealing with the state of Washington here, they dont want to raise license fee's unless we can prove to them we the snowmobilers want that. It's literaly an act of congress to get that done.
We've had to cut out a lot of programs in the motorized program, all the groomers took pay cuts thru out the state, 3 years in a row, we cut a bunch of law enforcement programs, cut back on sanicans in some area's, the plowing program had to take big cuts as well, not to mention alot of trails that were getting groomed and funded under priority 5 had to be cut because we just did not have the money to run them. Trust me a lot of the "fat" has been taken out the last few years. We have a new Winter Rec Administrator, (Pamela) who has been living , eating and breathing this snowmobile budget for over the last year. ( and IMO she's been doing a great job) Thats all she does is manage our program and the non motorized, it's not like they just go out and waste our money, They are very much on top of it and it is all public record. And charging more is not that easy, Wish it was and we'd be fine, We are dealing with the state of Washington here, they dont want to raise license fee's unless we can prove to them we the snowmobilers want that. It's literaly an act of congress to get that done.
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I wish the license fees would go up so we could enjoy grooming all season long.
Hey Jet....If we are a stand-alone program, has the progam's income decreased or is it just that expenses have gone up? I know we're in a recession but it seems like most people are still registering their sleds and buying gas (the two sources of income).
How does the state determine what amount of revenue will be generated by our gas highway tax that we give up? Does some pencil pusher decide that its a recessionary year so he estimates off road fuel purchases will be down 20% and therefore we get a 20% decrease in that portion of funding?
Our current funding setup, like a lot of gubby programs, lacks real transparency!
How does the state determine what amount of revenue will be generated by our gas highway tax that we give up? Does some pencil pusher decide that its a recessionary year so he estimates off road fuel purchases will be down 20% and therefore we get a 20% decrease in that portion of funding?
Our current funding setup, like a lot of gubby programs, lacks real transparency!
Dan,
It must be difficult for you to get on here and see all of the biatching after all of your hard work and countless hours of effort you put in to this program. You guys do a great job with the small amount of funds allocated to the grooming program and we really appreciate the hard work. When I say the system is broken I mean more in the sense of broke$$$ but not totally.
I do have a few more questions to pile on when you get a chance.
Does the increase in fees to snow park permits and cross country passes mean we have more money coming next year, this year or none at all.
Last year we had a 5 week dry spell, I went to the Methow to ride and the roads were flat ice without a ripple because nobody was riding and there had been no precip. Why was the groomer still grooming? Why wouldn't he park it and wait for a reason to groom and extend the short grooming period due to "lack of funds"? did this happen state wide?
A couple of years ago, early season, I was night riding at Gold creek and there was a groomer out cruising around with no implement covering his tracks. I stopped and asked him where his beaver tail was. He said it was illegal for him to drag anything behind his groomer and he wished he could. He didn't have the contract. Is this true? If I had a groomer and wanted to volunteer my time, money and equipment, would it be illegal to do so?
People suggest that we raise money to extend the seasons like last year when winter came late and the grooming stopped with tons of snow left. Is this a viable option, can we raise private funds to extend the seasons?
The frustration you see here is because nothing ever changes, were still going to get a short grooming season and everyone is willing to pay to extend it NOW. We should be grooming when the snow starts, until it quits. You keep saying it takes an act of congress to raise taxes, lets make it so. Is this because of our friend Tim Iaman? (sp) Do we need another study??
Congress has no problem in our one party, left wing, extremist whack job state raising taxes in a deep recession to cover their out of control spending habits and our car tabs have been going up every year after we passed the car tab bill. So whats the problem? Asking our legislature to raise taxes so we can spend more money should go together like peanut butter and jelly. Maybe we should offer them 1% of our increased funds to roll around in and piss in the wind.
Lucky for me I get to ride between 60 and 80 days a year and am a mid week storm chaser so grooming is not usually a big deal. On the weekends when I take the family out and the roads are flat , it's nice to see our money at work. We just need more of it right now, not another 3 years from now. $35 tabs are a joke!
It must be difficult for you to get on here and see all of the biatching after all of your hard work and countless hours of effort you put in to this program. You guys do a great job with the small amount of funds allocated to the grooming program and we really appreciate the hard work. When I say the system is broken I mean more in the sense of broke$$$ but not totally.
I do have a few more questions to pile on when you get a chance.
Does the increase in fees to snow park permits and cross country passes mean we have more money coming next year, this year or none at all.
Last year we had a 5 week dry spell, I went to the Methow to ride and the roads were flat ice without a ripple because nobody was riding and there had been no precip. Why was the groomer still grooming? Why wouldn't he park it and wait for a reason to groom and extend the short grooming period due to "lack of funds"? did this happen state wide?
A couple of years ago, early season, I was night riding at Gold creek and there was a groomer out cruising around with no implement covering his tracks. I stopped and asked him where his beaver tail was. He said it was illegal for him to drag anything behind his groomer and he wished he could. He didn't have the contract. Is this true? If I had a groomer and wanted to volunteer my time, money and equipment, would it be illegal to do so?
People suggest that we raise money to extend the seasons like last year when winter came late and the grooming stopped with tons of snow left. Is this a viable option, can we raise private funds to extend the seasons?
The frustration you see here is because nothing ever changes, were still going to get a short grooming season and everyone is willing to pay to extend it NOW. We should be grooming when the snow starts, until it quits. You keep saying it takes an act of congress to raise taxes, lets make it so. Is this because of our friend Tim Iaman? (sp) Do we need another study??
Congress has no problem in our one party, left wing, extremist whack job state raising taxes in a deep recession to cover their out of control spending habits and our car tabs have been going up every year after we passed the car tab bill. So whats the problem? Asking our legislature to raise taxes so we can spend more money should go together like peanut butter and jelly. Maybe we should offer them 1% of our increased funds to roll around in and piss in the wind.
Lucky for me I get to ride between 60 and 80 days a year and am a mid week storm chaser so grooming is not usually a big deal. On the weekends when I take the family out and the roads are flat , it's nice to see our money at work. We just need more of it right now, not another 3 years from now. $35 tabs are a joke!
thats a lot of questions, but I will do my best
ReTodd, to anwser a few questions, yes expensives have gone way up, our sled registrations have actually gone down, dont ask me why but they have, If I am correct, we were down about 2000 sleds reg last season, so we get less reg money and less gas tax money, the gas tax money is figured on how many sleds registered, X 125 gallons of gas per sled, X .22 cents, so when sled regs are down we loose a lot of gas tax money also. To Ericbigbore, If I am correct on this, it's the non motorized snoparks that went way up, we get none of that money, but I think for the first time , Out of staters ect can buy motorized snopark permits on line, that money we do get, Probably wont be a ton but its a start. As for the dry spell, yes some of the groomer operators did keep grooming, some did not, it was there call unfortunately. I'm not sticking up for them but they have a lot of money invested in equipment and they make nothing if it's parked, Most operators try and stretch it out the entire season, the baker area is one area that has been shorted for years. If we could just get more money in the system, they could technically get a "raise". They need it and deserve it. As for the groomer at gold creek, he is kind of a Hell'un, You have to have a Forest service permit to groom, he does not have one as far as I know. The forest service does have the contract to groom that area. If were up to me , Hey I'd let him up there anytime he wanted to. Yes technically the can issue him a ticket for running up there. WSSA does have legal coucil in Olympia, they are working on the license fee increase, I believe. Thoses gooba's down there cant figure out why we would want to raise our fee's, they just dont get it. I will find out more about this real soon. The snowmobile season has always been from dec thru march with a 16 week program, thats just the way it was set up years ago. This is an unusuall year to get snow this early. It would be nice to start early but than we would not have enough money to finish thru march, Hope that might explain a few things. It's all politics ya know, we do the best with what we have , for now anyways.
ReTodd, to anwser a few questions, yes expensives have gone way up, our sled registrations have actually gone down, dont ask me why but they have, If I am correct, we were down about 2000 sleds reg last season, so we get less reg money and less gas tax money, the gas tax money is figured on how many sleds registered, X 125 gallons of gas per sled, X .22 cents, so when sled regs are down we loose a lot of gas tax money also. To Ericbigbore, If I am correct on this, it's the non motorized snoparks that went way up, we get none of that money, but I think for the first time , Out of staters ect can buy motorized snopark permits on line, that money we do get, Probably wont be a ton but its a start. As for the dry spell, yes some of the groomer operators did keep grooming, some did not, it was there call unfortunately. I'm not sticking up for them but they have a lot of money invested in equipment and they make nothing if it's parked, Most operators try and stretch it out the entire season, the baker area is one area that has been shorted for years. If we could just get more money in the system, they could technically get a "raise". They need it and deserve it. As for the groomer at gold creek, he is kind of a Hell'un, You have to have a Forest service permit to groom, he does not have one as far as I know. The forest service does have the contract to groom that area. If were up to me , Hey I'd let him up there anytime he wanted to. Yes technically the can issue him a ticket for running up there. WSSA does have legal coucil in Olympia, they are working on the license fee increase, I believe. Thoses gooba's down there cant figure out why we would want to raise our fee's, they just dont get it. I will find out more about this real soon. The snowmobile season has always been from dec thru march with a 16 week program, thats just the way it was set up years ago. This is an unusuall year to get snow this early. It would be nice to start early but than we would not have enough money to finish thru march, Hope that might explain a few things. It's all politics ya know, we do the best with what we have , for now anyways.