Damn good idea I just ran out of popcorn???
Unpopular opinion time: Having finally ridden my '21 850 factory turbo, it seems that aftermarket turbo mfgs/shops have no clue what they're doing
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Have 1 season on the 2020.5
So far it’s been really good!
Huge advantage in super deep
Less noticeable in more set-up snow
The key to how good it is would be reliability, that we won’t know till after this season with more on the hill!
Can’t wait to see how they hold up to the more brutal riders out there!
Then compare stock turbo to aftermarket.
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So far it’s been really good!
Huge advantage in super deep
Less noticeable in more set-up snow
The key to how good it is would be reliability, that we won’t know till after this season with more on the hill!
Can’t wait to see how they hold up to the more brutal riders out there!
Then compare stock turbo to aftermarket.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's kind of fun to read through the turbo arguments just to see how long it takes for someone to correct someone else's misinformation, but when it becomes half the thread... Gives me an idea: how about an option for moderators to create a sidebar thread? Not sure I've seen any such thing on a webforum, but it would really come in handy here, and this isn't the first place I've seen where that was the case.
Anyway, what I'd like to see is a comparison between the Doo turbo and an aftermarket turbo sled set up by somebody who knows what they're doing. It is unrealistic to expect an aftermarket turbo kit to do exactly what the Doo turbo does and do it better: you're talking about a relatively small operation that can't afford to pay test riders to put tens of thousands of miles on their setup and develop a tune that works across the wide range of potential conditions. So, to get optimum performance and riding characteristics will fall to the rider and/or installer to some degree. If you like how the Gen4 rides and aren't looking for a lot of power, there isn't much reason to bother with that. If you want to ride another chassis, or if you're looking for more power, then you're back with the aftermarket. There's also the question of cost: if you already have a late model sled you're happy with, you're looking at $4000 or so to turbo it, vs. $10k+ by the time you sell it and buy the Doo. Ultimately, for the immediate future I see the Doo turbo only taking a small amount of business from the aftermarket. If Poo and/or Cat/Yammi also come out with factory turbos, especially ones making bigger power, that will put more squeeze on the aftermarket, but it'll take several years before the cost proposition matches up (buying a used factory turbo sled vs. putting a kit on an existing sled). Also, this is just second-hand, but the aftermarket is putting out a much better product than they used to. Some kits run pretty well out of the box: the guys putting them together know what they're doing, but there's only so much a small operation can do.
Anyway, what I'd like to see is a comparison between the Doo turbo and an aftermarket turbo sled set up by somebody who knows what they're doing. It is unrealistic to expect an aftermarket turbo kit to do exactly what the Doo turbo does and do it better: you're talking about a relatively small operation that can't afford to pay test riders to put tens of thousands of miles on their setup and develop a tune that works across the wide range of potential conditions. So, to get optimum performance and riding characteristics will fall to the rider and/or installer to some degree. If you like how the Gen4 rides and aren't looking for a lot of power, there isn't much reason to bother with that. If you want to ride another chassis, or if you're looking for more power, then you're back with the aftermarket. There's also the question of cost: if you already have a late model sled you're happy with, you're looking at $4000 or so to turbo it, vs. $10k+ by the time you sell it and buy the Doo. Ultimately, for the immediate future I see the Doo turbo only taking a small amount of business from the aftermarket. If Poo and/or Cat/Yammi also come out with factory turbos, especially ones making bigger power, that will put more squeeze on the aftermarket, but it'll take several years before the cost proposition matches up (buying a used factory turbo sled vs. putting a kit on an existing sled). Also, this is just second-hand, but the aftermarket is putting out a much better product than they used to. Some kits run pretty well out of the box: the guys putting them together know what they're doing, but there's only so much a small operation can do.
C
caper11
Well-known member
I have clutched and installed a BD turbo on a G4 165 for a buddy.
I know how that sled felt and to compensate for the turbo lag, different clutching had to be used.
Also we are low elevation compared to the states. We ride at 65/7000ft where some of the areas are staged at those elevations, so we have to run high octane fuel or do a head cut for pump gas. That BD At the time Was the best running turbo I have ever ridden. Until now.
Even tho my 850t is only rated at 165hp it does not feel or show it on the speedo when I get a chance to look. Ive done enough testing on certain hills In my area to know what sleds are capable of producing for trackspeed. I’m very impressed to say they least. So I think my 850t would of definitely given that BD g4 a run for the money.
Will my sled complete with my brothers 174 turbo xm thats non intercooled? I highly doubt it, that sled is a animal with lots of traction, and I doubt a 175 850t would either.
I have more hours on setting up my brothers turbo than my buddies G4.
Long story in summary, when these 850T are clutched properly IMO they are going to be insane, and has the potential to be cheaper to purchase and run.
This is going to be a exciting season.
As quick as the extra 2021 850T's dissapeared I would say its over for ski doo aftermarket turbo kits, but it open the door to all kinds of factory upgrades.
C
caper11
Well-known member
Stock gearing not stock clutching.
It doesn't surprise me at all...
When you have control of the engine design, and all of the Ignition/throttle/fuel mapping.... rather than a 'piggy back" on NA controller/system... It has to be better... and more integrated.
good thread
When you have control of the engine design, and all of the Ignition/throttle/fuel mapping.... rather than a 'piggy back" on NA controller/system... It has to be better... and more integrated.
good thread
I also apologize for sidetracking the discussion with the turbo argument. I do get riled up at times!!
I bought a 2020 freeride last year (was WAY past due for a new sled) and LOVE IT, but I can't tell you how many times I have smacked myself in the forehead thinking that if I had just waited ONE MORE YEAR!!! Yes, I could sell and upgrade but it took years to plan out how to steal the checkbook from my wife, come up with a decent enough lie as to why so much of my hard earned $ went to a ski-doo dealer, and sleep in the garage for several weeks afterwards before she finally gave me a key to the new door locks she suddenly decided to install. I just don't know if I can go thru all of that again so soon... At least until I do some remodeling to the garage first.
All I can say to all of you who own the 850T is I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo jealous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ONE MORE DAMNED YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!
?
I bought a 2020 freeride last year (was WAY past due for a new sled) and LOVE IT, but I can't tell you how many times I have smacked myself in the forehead thinking that if I had just waited ONE MORE YEAR!!! Yes, I could sell and upgrade but it took years to plan out how to steal the checkbook from my wife, come up with a decent enough lie as to why so much of my hard earned $ went to a ski-doo dealer, and sleep in the garage for several weeks afterwards before she finally gave me a key to the new door locks she suddenly decided to install. I just don't know if I can go thru all of that again so soon... At least until I do some remodeling to the garage first.
All I can say to all of you who own the 850T is I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo jealous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ONE MORE DAMNED YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!
?
Time will tell. The real evidence will be guys who sell their current sleds with aftermarket turbos for a Doo turbo (or Poo, or others, when/if they come). Probably my biggest bone to pick is with the idea that aftermarket turbo kit sellers "have no clue what they're doing." There have been some clueless kit makers – I've seen pictures and videos of sleds with turbos obviously designed by someone with more passion than knowledge, to put it nicely – but those were from at least ten years ago, and not from anyone currently selling turbos. I'd bet most people who buy the Doo turbo are guys who'd never consider an aftermarket turbo. If anything, that's a good thing! Personally, I see turbos more as a side-step than a step in the right direction, for the typical rider. For my purposes, I'd rather see a focus on a much lighter chassis and some fresh thinking on layouts and suspensions; existing 800-class engines put out plenty of power, and until a turbo means the same power but lighter, I'm not that interested.
In the long run, if the other manufacturers follow suit, I wouldn't be surprised if factory turbos kill all but one or two aftermarket companies (with maybe one or two more sticking around just to sell upgrades for factory turbos). Like mountainhorse said, just having full access to the electronics is a big advantage. Even if every OEM ends up making a turbo, I think there will still be a market for aftermarket kits. Just look at cars like the WRX and Lancer EVO: they had lots of power from the factory and could be chipped for more, but guys still buy full turbo upgrade kits. It's can be a tough market, but there will always be demand for more power.
In the long run, if the other manufacturers follow suit, I wouldn't be surprised if factory turbos kill all but one or two aftermarket companies (with maybe one or two more sticking around just to sell upgrades for factory turbos). Like mountainhorse said, just having full access to the electronics is a big advantage. Even if every OEM ends up making a turbo, I think there will still be a market for aftermarket kits. Just look at cars like the WRX and Lancer EVO: they had lots of power from the factory and could be chipped for more, but guys still buy full turbo upgrade kits. It's can be a tough market, but there will always be demand for more power.
while you're locked in the house, do some research on turbo and turbine efficiency. your posts are hysterical
I also apologize for sidetracking the discussion with the turbo argument. I do get riled up at times!!
I bought a 2020 freeride last year (was WAY past due for a new sled) and LOVE IT, but I can't tell you how many times I have smacked myself in the forehead thinking that if I had just waited ONE MORE YEAR!!! Yes, I could sell and upgrade but it took years to plan out how to steal the checkbook from my wife, come up with a decent enough lie as to why so much of my hard earned $ went to a ski-doo dealer, and sleep in the garage for several weeks afterwards before she finally gave me a key to the new door locks she suddenly decided to install. I just don't know if I can go thru all of that again so soon... At least until I do some remodeling to the garage first.
All I can say to all of you who own the 850T is I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo jealous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ONE MORE DAMNED YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!
?
It will take MORE power to run one via an alternator than mechanics.
A) Alternators don't run for free.
B) Any time you convert one form of energy into another form, there is losses.
1) In this case you would be converting 2wiced. From mech to spark, and then from spark back to mech. LOTS of loss!
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I wonder if the BRP engineers read these threads? I can see them around the coffee station in the morning laughing their asses off about some of these posts.
Why debate it? Just grab the flipper and smile!
Why debate it? Just grab the flipper and smile!
Wow...I hadn't checked in on this thread in a while. Way to keep it going.
Some additional thoughts now that I have more miles on the 850t + some powder days:
That's all I have for now. We'll see how she holds up now that we're in what looks to be a prolonged storm cycle. I'll never miss my BD/Aero/Silbers again.
Some additional thoughts now that I have more miles on the 850t + some powder days:
- As others have noted, the immediate throttle response + fatter torque curve are the big winners.
- Re: top-end power: We typically ride at 10,000ft+ so the difference (30% ish) in power between this and NA is night and day. As for whether it could still use more, I say "maybe." As I wrote, I've owned well-tuned higher-boost race gas sleds in the past and for powder/tree riding/jumping, not much more is needed IMO. If you saw my garage, you'd know that I'm a "more is better" guy, but there's a balance to be had on snowmobiles. Of course, there's always someone better/stronger, but I'm fit, been riding for years, and put down a coupla' thousand hard miles on a sled per season, and maybe another 10-15hp would be good, but I wouldn't trade off the current throttle response for it.
- So far, very reliable. I can get the thing to spit and cough a touch if I really work on/off the throttle in deep. But otherwise, it's been flawless.
- No overrev issue at our altitude w/ stock clutching. It holds 8000rpm all day long.
- No belt issues. Funny how it was always "our fault" according to BRP, yet now they vent the hell out of the clutch side and run a temp gauge.
- Hood design is a bit goofy. Exhaust side vent is just a huge snow catcher. They could have designed this to get the hot air out w/o letting a ton of water in.
- Drinks oil by the gallon during break-in.
That's all I have for now. We'll see how she holds up now that we're in what looks to be a prolonged storm cycle. I'll never miss my BD/Aero/Silbers again.
I wonder if the BRP engineers read these threads? I can see them around the coffee station in the morning laughing their asses off about some of these posts.
Why debate it? Just grab the flipper and smile!
You don't have to be an engineer to laugh your ass off at these comments. I don't expect a large percentage of people to know the importance heat has in regards to driving a turbo, but when you talk a big game and don't know **** about the topic.....its quite comical.
Some great info. i'll be reading with interest on how the turbos did this season in terms of performance/reliability in terms of if i snow check one in a few month's time. i was pretty much dead set on getting one but having a clutch kit and lowering gearing on my '20 Freeride has made that machine feel like the engine's been modded so the waters are muddied a bit. it's great plus we're seldom going over 8k feet out here in the cascades.
interesting point on the exhaust side vent. i thought the same thing when looking at one on the showroom floor.
when you get the right aftermarket kits set up to perform right, there spool is not much under the small stock turbo and will make a lot more power on the top end, like 25 more mph track speed.. easy to see when compared on a big pull
What differences are there to get “them” set up to perform right? What beyond a silber or boondocker “stock” kit?
Had the Aerocharger back in 2011 on Etec and fueling was hard to get figured out.. but over time it was rectified and since runs well, also run a impulse kit that I bought back in 2015 and it’s been a very good fueling and running sled from 0 -12000’ and now also on a redline kit on the 850 that has its fuelling dialled in.. runs the same as turbo performance fuelling..
the new doo 20.5 spool is very quick but it’s a smaller turbo housing and 170hp max, less primary weight.. aftermarkets that are set up are not much behind them if any and produce a lot more hp with boost to 10plus lbs..
Even the short time we had Sibler, it spooled very quick for the 7lbs, lot less money..
the new doo 20.5 spool is very quick but it’s a smaller turbo housing and 170hp max, less primary weight.. aftermarkets that are set up are not much behind them if any and produce a lot more hp with boost to 10plus lbs..
Even the short time we had Sibler, it spooled very quick for the 7lbs, lot less money..