TRS Clutching [ PART TWO ]

[geo]

School is in. The professor is letting out info beyond the text books. Love going back to school at my age.

Mr. TRS. Ooh Ooh. I'm putting my hand up. Your comment on reading the belts ooh ooh. Do you mean the furry edges of the undercord and the different pattern-angle on the lower cogs.
Is that because the leading edge for the secondary is the inside of the belt and the leading edge of the primary is the outer edge and if the two clutches don't line up the belt wear will always show this dual angle??
I've seen this for 3 yrs and thought WTF lol is causing this 'cause my "tool" told me (about every freeking ride) alignment was OK. Oops sorry for the language sir but I'm pissed that none of the textbooks I bought for the course show a pic of this simple inspection for alignment. If they weren't all tattered and covered in belt dust I would ask for my money back.

Ooh Ooh (calmed down and putting my hand up again) Mr TRS. Is the heat indication the shiny stuff? Should it be dull, uniform from top edge to bottom edge and not reflect light. If it's shiny on the upper half and dull on the lower half (if you look at it soon enough) does that show slip is in the primary that you need to correct and shiny bottom and dull top show slip in the secondary you need to correct?`
A bully has been taking my lunch money (and I'm CHEAP too sorry) for too long (I think he has a Cat and needs it for his own belts cause they're all like $250 plus up here). Is it possible, for combo experimentation, to restore a belt that has not turned color yet but put away due to glazing with a deglaze using something like 600 grit lightly?
And,,, way before Gates came out with the Carbon belts, were you able to get clean sheaves with the Poo belts? Does this come with a change in clutching needs like more squeeze at both ends or was the difference more in line with actual performance and life of good grip? Gates are more expensive up here (if you can find one) and if you say import from the States in Canada you just hope it comes in at x2 in price.

With all intent for respect Mr TRS, I appreciate your lessons greatly but being a bit slow requires I review some lessons forgotten quite often. Would it not be in the world's best interest for a new textbook of reference in the mystical world of CVT clutching to be published for the students. Something with reference and theory (don't forget pictures) including the current clutch designs.
It may be too late for me Tony but think of our children and our children's children lol.

 

[TRS]

School is in. The professor is letting out info beyond the text books. Love going back to school at my age.

Mr. TRS. Ooh Ooh. I'm putting my hand up. Your comment on reading the belts ooh ooh. Do you mean the furry edges of the undercord and the different pattern-angle on the lower cogs.
Is that because the leading edge for the secondary is the inside of the belt and the leading edge of the primary is the outer edge and if the two clutches don't line up the belt wear will always show this dual angle??
I've seen this for 3 yrs and thought WTF lol is causing this 'cause my "tool" told me (about every freeking ride) alignment was OK. Oops sorry for the language sir but I'm pissed that none of the textbooks I bought for the course show a pic of this simple inspection for alignment. If they weren't all tattered and covered in belt dust I would ask for my money back.

Ooh Ooh (calmed down and putting my hand up again) Mr TRS. Is the heat indication the shiny stuff? Should it be dull, uniform from top edge to bottom edge and not reflect light. If it's shiny on the upper half and dull on the lower half (if you look at it soon enough) does that show slip is in the primary that you need to correct and shiny bottom and dull top show slip in the secondary you need to correct?`
A bully has been taking my lunch money (and I'm CHEAP too sorry) for too long (I think he has a Cat and needs it for his own belts cause they're all like $250 plus up here). Is it possible, for combo experimentation, to restore a belt that has not turned color yet but put away due to glazing with a deglaze using something like 600 grit lightly?
And,,, way before Gates came out with the Carbon belts, were you able to get clean sheaves with the Poo belts? Does this come with a change in clutching needs like more squeeze at both ends or was the difference more in line with actual performance and life of good grip? Gates are more expensive up here (if you can find one) and if you say import from the States in Canada you just hope it comes in at x2 in price.

With all intent for respect Mr TRS, I appreciate your lessons greatly but being a bit slow requires I review some lessons forgotten quite often. Would it not be in the world's best interest for a new textbook of reference in the mystical world of CVT clutching to be published for the students. Something with reference and theory (don't forget pictures) including the current clutch designs.
It may be too late for me Tony but think of our children and our children's children lol.

�� Politicians write books.

 

[Tewstroke]

I broke in a new belt today. We had more set up and crusty snow today. 6500' .
Engagement 4100 -4200. If deflection is loose at all, engagement is very grabby, meaning , it jerks in abruptly. When deflection is tight, engagement is smooth and very precise.

I did multiple , back to back climbs and the clutches didn't feel overly hot. Also, I did not smell the belt like I have with the stock belt under similar conditions.

Boost was reading between 10 and 10.5. 8300 RPM. I was thinking of raising the boost a bit more, but it was a real handful under these more set up snow conditions.

These photos are of the same clutch under different lighting conditions-sunlight and fluorescent shop lights. They were taken back home after unloading because I had forgotten my phone in the truck and couldn't take them on the mountain. I haven't figured out why the photos get rotated when I upload them.

I'm pleased with how clean the sheaves are.

 

[geo]

�� Politicians write books.

So,,, you don't have any politicians down there?

I read Clinton is looking for a job.

 

[tdbaugha]

Your comment on reading the belts ooh ooh. Do you mean the furry edges of the undercord and the different pattern-angle on the lower cogs.
Is that because the leading edge for the secondary is the inside of the belt and the leading edge of the primary is the outer edge and if the two clutches don't line up the belt wear will always show this dual angle??
I've seen this for 3 yrs and thought WTF lol is causing this 'cause my "tool" told me (about every freeking ride) alignment was OK. Oops sorry for the language sir but I'm pissed that none of the textbooks I bought for the course show a pic of this simple inspection for alignment. If they weren't all tattered and covered in belt dust I would ask for my money back.

My belt after 4 rides.

Outside:

Inside:

 

[Spaarky]

I need a set of Lightnings in the 71-72 gram range. I have a couple sets in 75.5 and 76.2 range. Anyone want to swap??? Or you order a set I need and swap?

 

[TRS]

My belt after 4 rides.

Outside:

Inside:

Even wear pattern.?

 

[TRS]

George,
There are a lot of answers in this thread for most SWesters.
I'm having trouble keeping up with PM now. LOL.

 

[geo]

Thanx tdbaugha. Pictures helped a lot. Little different pattern than I pictured in my mind but but makes perfect sense if you think about it.
Funny how you can look at something a 1000 times and never really see it 'til someone points a finger right at it.

Questions. Did the difference between sides change with secondary spring changes,,, or is this still a bit of an alignment thing,,, or is this a fixed half-sliding half thing 'cause of the twist?

 

[geo]

George,
There are a lot of answers in this thread for most SWesters.
I'm having trouble keeping up with PM now. LOL.

Sorry Tony. I don't have much time left and trying to cram for the exam.
Who da thunk you could tell so much about your clutching by just looking at your sheaves and belt. Who da thunk except maybe a farmer with no time for a politician.

So,,, if you could just box up your experience and Fed Ex it up north here,,,.
Label it as a gift too please.

 

[tdbaugha]

Thanx tdbaugha. Pictures helped a lot. Little different pattern than I pictured in my mind but but makes perfect sense if you think about it.
Funny how you can look at something a 1000 times and never really see it 'til someone points a finger right at it.

Questions. Did the difference between sides change with secondary spring changes,,, or is this still a bit of an alignment thing,,, or is this a fixed half-sliding half thing 'cause of the twist?

I have not noticed significant differences in belt witness marks throughout all of my testing once clutch offset was set. Inside vs outside will look different if your offset is not set correctly.

 

[TRS]

Sorry Tony. I don't have much time left and trying to cram for the exam.
Who da thunk you could tell so much about your clutching by just looking at your sheaves and belt. Who da thunk except maybe a farmer with no time for a politician.

So,,, if you could just box up your experience and Fed Ex it up north here,,,.
Label it as a gift too please.

Your surely not a politician, we are both farm boys.?

 

[briand]

Sorry Tony. I don't have much time left and trying to cram for the exam.
Who da thunk you could tell so much about your clutching by just looking at your sheaves and belt. Who da thunk except maybe a farmer with no time for a politician.

So,,, if you could just box up your experience and Fed Ex it up north here,,,.
Label it as a gift too please.

Its amazing what you can learn from Farm Equipment upkeep, servicing equipment, and preventive maintenance, Repairing equipment, Poor designs and how to correct them. Working on sleds is a great pass time keeping my mind active in the winter time. Been on the farm all my life and still Farming. Nice to see theres a few of us on here that have a farming heritage.

Anyways back on track i have a question with the Belts used. Is there a noticeable difference in the performance between the stock Polaris belt and the 44C4553 belt? I have been experimenting with the stock belt as i have not receivied the gates 44C yet. Will it be just a direct swap or will i need to change any clutching specs , Such as weights springs or such? I dont care if i have to change the belt to sheave clearance but i have gotten about as far as i can right now with the setup i have converted over to the tied clutch. Its taking a little more input to figure a setup out for the tied.

 

[AKFULLTHROTTLE]

Well after some talk with Dan he has sent me a set up to try which should be very close to the same talked about here from what I gather.

16' 163 3" Chain
5# Boost
1500-3500'

Custom Helix (guessing it is close)
140/220 Secondary Spring
125/310 Primary Spring
T1 weights 76.4 Grams

We also have another setup we are going to try

17' 155 2.6 belt
1500-3500'
46-34F
140/220 Secondary Spring

 

[Sunvang]

We also have another setup we are going to try

17' 155 2.6 belt
1500-3500'
46-34F
140/220 Secondary Spring

Let me know how this works, i got these parts on the way.

 

[tdbaugha]

16 Axys 163 3 inch Silber turbo

Primary
72.5 gram lightning weights
150-310 spring (blue)
Shimmed to .020-.030

Secondary
46-32f
140-220 spring (blk/grn)
Haven't checked alignment yet

Gearing
20/44

Belt
45C

I haven't had this setup on the hill yet, just testing it at 3700 feet. Engagement at 4000 rpm. With the 5 lbs spring in, the rpm would spike to 8500-8550 and settle in at 8450. The clutch setup that came with it would typically hit the rev limiter causing it to stumble. This setup has solved this issue. With the 3 lbs spring in, it would spike to 8400 and settle in a 8300. Clutches are staying cooler then the belt.
Off to test it at 6k to 8k this weekend.

How did it go?

 

[briand]

Probably 67-68 grams or so. Just guessing but that would be close from what I've seen so far.

I also picked up a 125-175 secondary spring to try. That will drive me down even lower. Jury is still out whether the lighter springs than Tony's 140-220 work better or worse. They certainly upshift fast though! Wow.

I need to get some 68 ish gram weights and put in that secondary spring and a 140-285 primary spring see what happens.

FWIW, Tony runs a 100-150 secondary spring in one of his NA sleds.

Did you get a chance to try these lower end rate springs? Primary and secondary? Just curious as this is what I'm going to be doing but a lot lower in the primary.

 

[aksledjunkie]

Curious what someone's thoughts are on what weight to run, AKFULLTHROTTLE touched on what clutching will be in my sled this weekend, the
46-34F helix with a 140/220 spring, sled will be put back together tonight and I have enough snow at my house I can tool around a little bit but as of right now I'm at 77.8grams venom weights with an Almond Primary. If I drop much more weight I'm going to have to change that spring and was thinking about maybe a Team green 140/330.


Hey TDbaugha, how are you liking the stock 120/320 spring?

 

[tdbaugha]

Did you get a chance to try these lower end rate springs? Primary and secondary? Just curious as this is what I'm going to be doing but a lot lower in the primary.

Sorry no I have not. I have weights, and springs in route. Should have it in for next weekend though. Curious where you have found primary springs that are a lot lower than a 140-285?

Curious what someone's thoughts are on what weight to run, AKFULLTHROTTLE touched on what clutching will be in my sled this weekend, the
46-34F helix with a 140/220 spring, sled will be put back together tonight and I have enough snow at my house I can tool around a little bit but as of right now I'm at 77.8grams venom weights with an Almond Primary. If I drop much more weight I'm going to have to change that spring and was thinking about maybe a Team green 140/330.


Hey TDbaugha, how are you liking the stock 120/320 spring?

First of all, everything except Polaris springs are measured at 2.5" & 1.25". Polaris measures their springs at 2.5" & 1.19". That venom almond is a "165-327". That is actually a 165-335 if measured at Polaris heights.

I have been running the Polaris 150-290 for the past month and really like it. With ~74 gram Lightning weights it engages at 4000RPM. Low finish really pulls your top end RPM down.

You low elevation guys should get some lighter springs in your primary to pull the RPM down some. Your bottom end should be a lot stronger than ours since you're at low elevation. With 75-76 gram Lightning weights you could run the 150-290 like me. Or a 150-310, 140-320, or I found a 140-285 in the old stock stuff from Speedwerx. It's also worth mentioning that I have not been running a glide washer; just file the leading edges of the spring and it's fine. Those washers are just making the springs stiffer.

Also, Indy Dans weights are tucked even more so you don't need a stiff initial force spring to have high engagement. Just FYI.

 

[briand]

Sorry no I have not. I have weights, and springs in route. Should have it in for next weekend though. Curious where you have found primary springs that are a lot lower than a 140-285?

One that i'm using is a Polaris Red 120-145 spring 7041083 with about .100 spacer that makes it around a 132-157 spring.

Renton Coil Spring CCT-B-135-255 spring its a 135-255 titanium spring so the end rate might be around 265 ish Polaris measurement.

EPI PS1 Orange 125-260 so Polaris measurement end rate around 272 ish.

If your going to run the lighter Lightning weights you just might be able to run the 120 start rate springs.

Please Be aware that im not running the tss 04. Im trying to run a setup crossover comparable to what you are running only in a tied setup. It has some form of barrier or wall, so to speak, once you reach about .85 to .90 shift out and is requiring a lot lower end spring rate in both primary and secondary but it is waking it up.

I should add here that im testing this clutching out at 2200 ft, Dalton turbo weights, and 8 pounds of boost.