Hi so I need instull only yellow spring in secondary and it will help how about primary?Do I need to change spring too. Thanks.
TRA settups...attn clutch guru's
- Thread starter winter brew
- Start date
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tollen77
Member
Sorry DaveB, I meant to respond to Teth-Air. Responded to the wrong post.
Teth-Air said:
First of all, I think that Teth-Air meant to say, "I expect higher track speed to come from the belt moving lower in the secondary not higher, after all isn't a stiffer spring going to slow the belt from falling the secondary?" At least I assume that's what he means since the belt does move lower in the secondary as it shifts out.
Teth-Air was assuming that if the belt got further out on the primary and lower in the secondary that that alone would create more track speed, and it would, assuming the belt doesn't slip. But, if the primary is pulling the belt down further in the secondary but the high load from the track causes the belt to slip, then you're not going to see the increase in track speed. What you need is more pinch in the secondary to keep the belt from slipping.
A
ak
Well-known member
You also need to install the updated 09 spring cap in the primary
part number# 417222759.
T
tollen77
Member
Has anyone tried using some different springs in the primary with the 225/350 secondary spring?
I wonder what would happen with a spring with a softer start??? (ie:130/290 rather than the '09 stock 160/290)
What about something with a little more finish??? (ie: 160/350 rather than the '08 stock 160/320)
My guess would be that a spring with a softer start would allow you to feather the throttle on take-off a little more and reduce some of the abrupt start. The firmer finish should help with the backshift should it not, though more weight would probably requ'd, no???
I'm still learning more and more about the TRA and the QRS so I appreciate the thoughts of the more knowledgable members on here.
Thanks again
I wonder what would happen with a spring with a softer start??? (ie:130/290 rather than the '09 stock 160/290)
What about something with a little more finish??? (ie: 160/350 rather than the '08 stock 160/320)
My guess would be that a spring with a softer start would allow you to feather the throttle on take-off a little more and reduce some of the abrupt start. The firmer finish should help with the backshift should it not, though more weight would probably requ'd, no???
I'm still learning more and more about the TRA and the QRS so I appreciate the thoughts of the more knowledgable members on here.
Thanks again
Don't work. I ran mine with a 130/290. The primary worked a little better but no like it should. remember the primary and secondary server different roles. primary RPM sensing and secondary torque sensing. You can fix a bad secondary setup with primary and vica versa. My feeling is the ramps in the 08 clutch are junk also. the need to have a more aggressive shift all through the curve, espically in the bottom. all the XP's I have rode rev like a SOB down the trail..that's becuase of the lazy shift on the bottom. The primary also shifts out so far while climing then just stops...with lower gearing this is even more noticable. I am expermenting with new ramps this year...much more agressive shift and then adding the stiffer secondary spring to fix that issue.
I bet this is why skidoo went to the reverse cut helix this year is to give more shift on the top...but again it's a primary issue so fixing it by putting in a steeper helix is the wrong way to go imo.
Tollen - Just reread you post and I guess I should add also that I clutch and want the abrupt start on my sleds. Personnely I want instant track speed and response. I do not like lazy slow soft take off. When I breath on the throttle I wan the sled to lurk and jump from underneath me.. That's the way I like them to work...My wife always complains about her twin piped 700 because it snaps her head when she touches the throttle...lol "that's just the way they are honey, I can't fix it"...lol
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tollen77
Member
Throttle Junkie; Can you describe how the primary worked better with the 130/290? Also, what are your thoughts on the new 441 ramps in the '09's?
Thanks
Well I was trying to get rid of the "revyness" on the bottom and going up the trail. The XP's have no "bite" until you are wide open. On the trail they just rev and you can tell the motor is not loaded at all. I was hoping that the softer spring would help with this. Also, while climbing you can feel the primary shift to a certain point and then it just stops like it runs into a wall. The sled has the power to keep shifting but does not. So in theory the light spring and more pin weight I added should make it shift harder. It did a little but not like I wanted. Basically you are trying to over come the "steepness" of the ramp with weight and soft spring. What I don't like about heavier pin weights and softer spring is it make the sled too sensative to conditions, alltitude, trail and off trail conditions. Which it was. One pull would be 8150 go around the hill to the other side of the mountain and it would be at 7800...
This is my first ski-doo but I clutched and worked on Polaris Mods for years and learned you want just enough weight to achieve full shift and RPM's but any more is messing up the setup.
With the Ski-Doo you have the option to change the ramps also which effects the shift. So what I am expermeneting with is taking away pin weight, going back to the 160/310 spring and running much more aggresive shift ramps. (if you look at the 08 ramps the have a huge belly in them on the bottom which causes the revy condition, basically it's in first gear going down the trail) and you can't add enough weight or softer spring to overcome that without messing up the top, hence why I think the 08 ramps are garbage. As far as the new 441 ramps, I don't know much about them. What I can tell you is I am not using any ramps that were made for these clutches. I have a buddy who raced and ran turbo ski-doos for years and I am putting some old school ramps in it. They are currently getting modified so they will work.
Once they are in and we get some snow I will let you know how it works.
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tollen77
Member
Thanks a lot. I appreciate the input. Let me know how the new ramps work out.
Good luck.
I also dislike the "lazy" feel of the factory settup, different ramps can make for a very solid, aggressive feel.
S
Skidooer
Well-known member
What ramps have you had good luck with?
standard part of my equipment in my pack is my infared heat gun .lets ya see the slip .the gps is another , speedo when you can see it .
slip will vary with the varied types of snow consistencies.
this motor is tough to clutch to due to the very narrow oporating powr band
is why it tend s to like a more sensitive back shift .
if you think you are stalling the up shift , look at the speedo and very ify it,
it is something you feel and hear , least i do , a lot of roaring and no change in a track speed , like it hit a wall and then you glance at the speedo and go oh ,
same when it never quits accelorating , no questioin there , you feel it .
for some guys its finding the max , others just feeling the breeze is good enough .
track speed is a variable and will range due to snow consistiences but you get a good idea what it averages .
poor fitting clutch components is more of an effect on this sensitve motor than the previous one . so this years has a better start .
i would expect to see the 146 run close to 58.60 average track speeds in our area . 154's 54/58 and 163's 50/54 mph .
these are pretty respectable but do reflect what i expected to see the tunnel design deliver as compared to the previous chassi . is what we got out of the 08 and was an average of 7 mph quicker than the previous rev chassi.
it takes a lot of playing and we tried a large spectrum of springs and ramps to find what all would happen.mostly trying to find the edge of the pull on the motor . with such a late power valve opening it makes me wonder if doo could consider putting a switch on the dash that allows us to electrically choose a 5800 opening for the mtns and a 7400 for a trail pass to pass sound emmissions . mtns we dont need to pass the stringent test and could really use some added mid range power .
when this is done the low end pull of this motor is excellent and can be made to feel very electric.
here's a brain teaser for ya .
if you took the primary spring out of the clutch and threw it away .
how many grams of weight would it take to drive the clutch forward with out slipping?
slip will vary with the varied types of snow consistencies.
this motor is tough to clutch to due to the very narrow oporating powr band
is why it tend s to like a more sensitive back shift .
if you think you are stalling the up shift , look at the speedo and very ify it,
it is something you feel and hear , least i do , a lot of roaring and no change in a track speed , like it hit a wall and then you glance at the speedo and go oh ,
same when it never quits accelorating , no questioin there , you feel it .
for some guys its finding the max , others just feeling the breeze is good enough .
track speed is a variable and will range due to snow consistiences but you get a good idea what it averages .
poor fitting clutch components is more of an effect on this sensitve motor than the previous one . so this years has a better start .
i would expect to see the 146 run close to 58.60 average track speeds in our area . 154's 54/58 and 163's 50/54 mph .
these are pretty respectable but do reflect what i expected to see the tunnel design deliver as compared to the previous chassi . is what we got out of the 08 and was an average of 7 mph quicker than the previous rev chassi.
it takes a lot of playing and we tried a large spectrum of springs and ramps to find what all would happen.mostly trying to find the edge of the pull on the motor . with such a late power valve opening it makes me wonder if doo could consider putting a switch on the dash that allows us to electrically choose a 5800 opening for the mtns and a 7400 for a trail pass to pass sound emmissions . mtns we dont need to pass the stringent test and could really use some added mid range power .
when this is done the low end pull of this motor is excellent and can be made to feel very electric.
here's a brain teaser for ya .
if you took the primary spring out of the clutch and threw it away .
how many grams of weight would it take to drive the clutch forward with out slipping?
The spring holds the clutch open, so it would take next to no weight at all to start the clutch closing. After that the closing force is a factor of ramp profile and arm weight. Given that I doubt anyone could make a TRA run without a spring.
On the other hand I broke the spring in the Polar primary at the start of a three day trip in the mountains. So I pulled the cover off, removed the broken spring and rode without a spring for the next two days with no trouble. Try that on the TRA!
After that Polar Motorsports install a spring retainer cup and have not had any more broken springs.
The springs the Polar primary are so light you can compress the spring in the clutch by just squeezing the cover down with your bare hands. ALL the primary clutch action comes from just two components - the weight and the ramp. None of that tuning BS and expense like you see in the last 6 pages of suffering riders.
The springs the Polar primary are so light you can compress the spring in the clutch by just squeezing the cover down with your bare hands. ALL the primary clutch action comes from just two components - the weight and the ramp. None of that tuning BS and expense like you see in the last 6 pages of suffering riders.
Haha that is a good question turboal. Have you ever ridden sleds with no primary clutch spring?? The best clutching that I have ever been around was by an old fellow in an out of the way town called Conconully WA. He uses a P85 primary and a paragon secondary...he does not use a primary spring. It freaked me out, but i walked away shaking my head in aw after riding it.
In reality, shouldn't need a spring. Like the Polar. The primary should be RPM driven. More RPM, more centri***al force on the arms that push on the ramps, which close the Primary. The secondary, however, would be the one to tell the primary how much it is going to be open, by the track load transfered back through the Helix.
Such a simple concept, but so hard a equasion to equal it out.
I just wish I had the $900 to drop on a Polar for my 670 Mod. I almost got that much in ramps and springs here as it is LOL
Edit, Centri***al Centrif ugal "f u g" is a bad word???
Such a simple concept, but so hard a equasion to equal it out.
I just wish I had the $900 to drop on a Polar for my 670 Mod. I almost got that much in ramps and springs here as it is LOL
Edit, Centri***al Centrif ugal "f u g" is a bad word???
You can run any clutch without a spring, but why? It's another tuning aid that allows you to further manipulate the set up to do what you want.
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tollen77
Member
I'm going to answer turboal's question with a question. What percentage of the force req'd to backshift is provided by the secondary? How does it do this?
The more backshifting force provided by the secondary, the less the spring in the primary is req'd and vice versa, right?
I also have another question.
Ramp vs. weight
If I'm trying to achieve maximum belt pinch what will give me the most pinch vs. engine load:
1) a shallower ramp with lesser weight?
OR
2) a steeper ramp with more weight?
Or do they load the engine the same amount but go about it in a different way.
Thoughts
The more backshifting force provided by the secondary, the less the spring in the primary is req'd and vice versa, right?
I also have another question.
Ramp vs. weight
If I'm trying to achieve maximum belt pinch what will give me the most pinch vs. engine load:
1) a shallower ramp with lesser weight?
OR
2) a steeper ramp with more weight?
Or do they load the engine the same amount but go about it in a different way.
Thoughts
ALL of the backshift comes from the secondary. Then the question is how much comes from the spring, how much from the action of the helix? I have seen some calculation and it sounds like the majority of bachshift signal comes from the helix....like upwards of 75%. Of course this will vary greatly with spring and helix specs.
But why should you add a large spring, just to have to add mass to the rollers to overcome this spring? The spring should only be needed to open the clutch below engagement, so its not rubbing on the belt. After engagement, Your just pushing one way to push back in the opposite.
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