SNOWEST FORUMS: Member Comments on "Letter to All Members"

[christopher]

As someone opposed to the changes I am seeing here, I think that Christopher is truly trying to listen to everyone here. His response to a post that I made earlier came across to me as condescending. In re reading his post I see that he was actually agreeing with me. I misinterpreted his post. Christopher took the time to respond to a PM I sent him about the post, and I am convinced that he is really trying to do a good job responding to all the posts here.

In the end we may just have to agree to disagree. Harris Publishing owns the site and can do as they please with it. We as users can choose to stay or leave. I will give it some time. I hope it works well for all involved.

Thank You.

 

[christopher]

Ya, Sorry about that.
The site SPIKED HARD and both the database servers crashed under the high load tonight.

and on a side note..................these keep popping up!@%#@!!!

 

[diamonddave]

Your not so much asking me a question that I can answer as you are making a statement.

You know what, this has to be the biggest load of garbage you've thrown out. This and your answer about the print media going under. Typical "CHRISTIAN ATTITUDE" As long as you ask for forgiveness every Sunday, your actions are then righteous, however right or wrong they may be and everyone elses are wrong.

I can't believe you can lie about not making the posts on the other site. Check the posting times of your posts here and there. It adds up.

We've seen the "ownership" of your other website, so now we know you aren't being forced to do this by "management". We've read your little note about that becoming a pay site by "CHRISTOPHER THE OWNER".

So how does someone check that site out to see if they like it when you can't access anything other than the classifieds.

As long as you ask for forgiveness, anything you do is fine!!!

 

[diamonddave]

Ya, Sorry about that.
The site SPIKED HARD and both the database servers crashed under the high load tonight.

And this never happened until you came along!

 

[XC700116]

I never said the poll has no validity, I said that all polls are biased both by the creator and by the responders.

All of us KNOW the tenor of the members. No one expected you to be happy about this. While everyone goes on and on about it not being about the money, we all knew full well it would be all about the money, and many members would be very unhappy at the thought of directly supporting their recreational forum. I don't need a poll to tell me we have some seriously unhappy members right now.

The only poll that will really matter is the one when we convert over to being paid membership. On that poll everyone will cast a vote with their hard earned dollars. The will be where the track meets the snow, or the rubber meets the road.

It will instantly separate those who talk the talk from those that walk the walk. And at that moment, we will know, in absolute definitive terms, what the entire membership thinks.

My job now, is to get us from here to there with as little trauma as possible, knowing full well, that this first week is going to be UGLY. But at the same time, to take as many of the suggestions and comments from the users that can be successfully integrated into that master plan for the site, and to do so for them.

So just out of curiosity and the "fun of it", cause I'm kinda demented like that and like to know if my argument won or lost will we be able to see in the stats the number of paid prem members vs reg registered members, and guests like we see guests and registered members now?

Just wondering

 

[diamonddave]

None. The owners decided what they wanted to do with their forums, and told me to make it happen. They asked me to post a list of what was going to be done before I began making changes and I did. For the most part, very few were interested and few read it.

After seeing the PAY site that you OWN, this is a crock!!

 

[XC700116]

You know what, this has to be the biggest load of garbage you've thrown out. This and your answer about the print media going under. Typical "CHRISTIAN ATTITUDE" As long as you ask for forgiveness every Sunday, your actions are then righteous, however right or wrong they may be and everyone elses are wrong.

I can't believe you can lie about not making the posts on the other site. Check the posting times of your posts here and there. It adds up.

We've seen the "ownership" of your other website, so now we know you aren't being forced to do this by "management". We've read your little note about that becoming a pay site by "CHRISTOPHER THE OWNER".

So how does someone check that site out to see if they like it when you can't access anything other than the classifieds.

As long as you ask for forgiveness, anything you do is fine!!!

Whoa WTF I'm deffinately not a fan but that's a little much don't ya think?

 

[IShartd]

All the highest ranks in the Navy -- rear admiral, vice admiral, and admiral of the Navy -- were created for just one man, the inimitable David Glasgow Farragut, hero of the Battle of Mobile Bay and other sea encounters.

He took the last Confederate stronghold on the Gulf of Mexico in the celebrated Battle of Mobile Bay. The heavily guarded bay entrance was filled with mines, then known as torpedoes. Farragut's cry of "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!" is now the stuff of legend, but it was also good tactics. All but one of the fleet's 18 ships passed safely through the channel

Qui audet adipiscitur!!
sedit qui timuit ne non succederet
tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito

So clever, He had to post it twice. Or maybe it was a burp when the site crashed tonight, and your expecting people to pay, HEHE, this thread is better than the 700 club, So much enertainment.

 

[Steamboat-RN]

All the highest ranks in the Navy -- rear admiral, vice admiral, and admiral of the Navy -- were created for just one man, the inimitable David Glasgow Farragut, hero of the Battle of Mobile Bay and other sea encounters.

He took the last Confederate stronghold on the Gulf of Mexico in the celebrated Battle of Mobile Bay. The heavily guarded bay entrance was filled with mines, then known as torpedoes. Farragut's cry of "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!" is now the stuff of legend, but it was also good tactics. All but one of the fleet's 18 ships passed safely through the channel

Qui audet adipiscitur!! WHO DARES WINS ...........Well sometimes
sedit qui timuit ne non succederet[ He who feared sat still. Quoting Harry Potter
tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito

Do not give in to evil...so now we're evil?

All of which gives credence to the phrase, it's better to be lucky than good.
The battle is the subject of several classes at naval academy ,the war college and the naval special warfar training center.. Indeed adm. Farragut was considered a hero. Later in life he said that he was caught up in the moment and made a brash decision. You will not find one instructor at either college that would call the move, "good tactics". Rushing blindly into uncharted waters is a fools errand.

 

[smwizzz]

Shaky ground.

It seems there is the possibility some of us may be on shaky ground. I said my goodbye's last night and discoverred this afternoon that I may actually be a gonner... . Well, whatever the problem was, I am now allowed back. This may be a glitch. I'm not sure. I will say if this was a warning to be silent, I did not approve. I will not point fingers or lay any blame. I only wish to make it known that for some unknown reason my login got fubar'd. I have heard talk of others having issues. When it happens to you it tends to get your attention. It got mine. It does not mean I will remain anonomous or silent. It just got my attention.... Just FYI.

 

[CatWoman]

We were ALL having problems/gremlins for awhile. Database servers crashed.....no one was *warning* you.......if that were warnings, then everyone online was getting them. I saw all sorts of weird stuff........thought it might be time for me to get the tinfoil hat.

It seems there is the possibility some of us may be on shaky ground. I said my goodbye's last night and discoverred this afternoon that I may actually be a gonner... . Well, whatever the problem was, I am now allowed back. This may be a glitch. I'm not sure. I will say if this was a warning to be silent, I did not approve. I will not point fingers or lay any blame. I only wish to make it known that for some unknown reason my login got fubar'd. I have heard talk of others having issues. When it happens to you it tends to get your attention. It got mine. It does not mean I will remain anonomous or silent. It just got my attention.... Just FYI.

 

[Steamboat-RN]

The fact that 2 websites can survive does not mean that they all can. It's been repeated a number of times that some others are struggling to turn a profit with ad-based services. So, again, we either need to presume that SW is lying and/or incompetent; or that the market simply won't support an ad-based revenue model. I never claimed that ALL free sites are struggling. But banner ads are not a panacea. At the end of the day, if you don't want to pay, then you don't have to.


Well, first off, this site is owned by a publishing company. Publishers are trying to figure out how to stay in business as people increasingly move to the web for information. I'm arguing it is valid in this case.

As for who the content belongs to: it doesn't really matter who owns the content. You are paying for access to the community, not content. Neither one would exist without the other (user content or the forums). If the forums fail to self-support, it doesn't make good business sense to subsidize something unless it provides some other benefit. You have to figure out how to monetize that benefit. Maybe it's a boost in magazine subscriptions. If they're not seeing that, then you have to find some other way to generate revenue.

I mearly pointed out two working sites in the same fashion that you pointed out a few that don't.
Weather HP is lying, incompetent or, as I suspect both, is not really the issue. They are seeking to capitalize on the market value of it's membership. The message is, join us, contribute your knowledge, and then pay us for the privilege. Maybe if I were the type to just lurk and search for answers to my questions, I would be happy to spend 10 bucks a month. But year after year many of us have stepped up to the plate and freely given advice, snow reports, and even shown other members around our local areas. Along the way we have grown some friendships and been instrumental in halting some land grabs.

HP is willing to trade community for content. A fatal mistake, I fear. Many long term well respected members have already left. Ollie is going to hard to replace if he leaves. And will the new content be better than the old? Doubtful.

 

[Steamboat-RN]

Not to single any one person out, but this is an example of the type of thing that is not allowed on the sites that make money.
http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=169305
This should carry a nominal fee. There are tons of these types of posts every week.
Free posts hawking everything from clothing to rentals and guide services.

Sorry buddy, did not mean to pick on you personally. Just happened to be the first ad I saw.

BTW. Your place sounds great. Good Luck.

 

[dsp81]

I mearly pointed out two working sites in the same fashion that you pointed out a few that don't.
Weather HP is lying, incompetent or, as I suspect both, is not really the issue.

It's easy to call someone incompetent. It's a lot harder to actually back it up. Same goes for lying. Especially when the subject is one that is likely out of your area of expertise and concerns individuals that you do not know.

They are seeking to capitalize on the market value of it's membership. The message is, join us, contribute your knowledge, and then pay us for the privilege. Maybe if I were the type to just lurk and search for answers to my questions, I would be happy to spend 10 bucks a month. But year after year many of us have stepped up to the plate and freely given advice, snow reports, and even shown other members around our local areas. Along the way we have grown some friendships and been instrumental in halting some land grabs.

HP is willing to trade community for content. A fatal mistake, I fear. Many long term well respected members have already left. Ollie is going to hard to replace if he leaves. And will the new content be better than the old? Doubtful.

That is definitely the danger in moving to a pay model. It is understandable that many feel the sense of community will be lost. I think that it's a little bit disingenuous, however, to expect that a business will provide you something for free whilst they eat the cost. It's understandable that people are upset that they have to pay for something that’s always been free (At least it’s always been free for the users). And it's fine that you say you won't join because you don't want to pay to share your knowledge. You can vote with your wallet. But I think you've set your expectations a little high on what a business should do for you for free.

 

[MtnDoo]

dsp81, you are the cheerleader many of us wish we could be.

 

[dsp81]

dsp81, you are the cheerleader many of us wish we could be.

I'm the cheerleader for PASA. That's People Against Specious Arguments. I'd let you join, but then you couldn't post the same thing over and over.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

It's easy to call someone incompetent. It's a lot harder to actually back it up. Same goes for lying. Especially when the subject is one that is likely out of your area of expertise and concerns individuals that you do not know.


That is definitely the danger in moving to a pay model. It is understandable that many feel the sense of community will be lost. I think that it's a little bit disingenuous, however, to expect that a business will provide you something for free whilst they eat the cost. It's understandable that people are upset that they have to pay for something that’s always been free (At least it’s always been free for the users). And it's fine that you say you won't join because you don't want to pay to share your knowledge. You can vote with your wallet. But I think you've set your expectations a little high on what a business should do for you for free.

yeah..but it hasnt been free...harris has been collecting advertising dollars since day one...not only on this forum..but also the other forums sharing the equipment...I would pay 50.00 a year..if it was put back to the old forum....give the new equipment and the yearly bill to the other forums..leave us on the old equipment and let thing be.....has anyone ever thought what it cost slp, fastrax, polaris.skidoo.and all the others to have adds on here? a pretty penny I would bet........and I bet everyone of those advertisers think they are getting a bargain for the amount of return they get on their advertising dollars here.....(how about a off the top guess of 500.00 a month on average for 50 advertisers..thats over 300,000 a year...and I bet the average price is way higher....)I noticed quite a few big know how guys have already said they are done here..everyone that leaves takes all that new knowledge with them.....the current info will be old news in 6 months..then what is snowest going to do for a draw to bring peeps in?have a couple dozen knowledge guys trying to teach 6-8 thousand how to mod/repair fix/ride their sleds?thats what has made this site so good..so many knowledge guys that what one misses another catches...I too will hang out and see how it goes..but if I have to pay the info/experience I have wont flow quite so freely...........(and I am a nobody on here)....

 

[Steamboat-RN]

It's easy to call someone incompetent. It's a lot harder to actually back it up. Same goes for lying. Especially when the subject is one that is likely out of your area of expertise and concerns individuals that you do not know.


That is definitely the danger in moving to a pay model. It is understandable that many feel the sense of community will be lost. I think that it's a little bit disingenuous, however, to expect that a business will provide you something for free whilst they eat the cost. It's understandable that people are upset that they have to pay for something that’s always been free (At least it’s always been free for the users). And it's fine that you say you won't join because you don't want to pay to share your knowledge. You can vote with your wallet. But I think you've set your expectations a little high on what a business should do for you for free.

True enough. I do not know them and the area is indeed out of my area of expertise.
But then I find it hard to believe that the site has never payed it's own way. And why now after all that time is is suddenly imperative to make a buck on us? We have only the word of people we do not know and now have a reason to distrust. Allowing for my lack of expertise, I still find it difficult to understand why this site is not solvent. I can look at similar sites that are doing just fine and wonder what model they are using. The fact that most other sled sites are doing well while this one fails does lead me to wonder about the competence of the people at the controls.
I have not set my expectations any higher than they were a month ago.
S/w set the bar. Not me. THEY provided this service for free for years not once even eluding to a possible conversion to a pay site.
S/W is by no means unique in it's comtent or format. I ,like many others will sadly leave a site that we have grown to enjoy for a long time. We will leave to find other sites that offer what S/W offers. But without the fees and the censureship. It will not be the same but in time hopefully many of us will end up on the same site and we can get back to what a sled site should be. Fun, informative and entertaining. Oh and FREE!

 

[dsp81]

yeah..but it hasnt been free...

Just because they take money in on advertising doesn't mean that it covers the cost of running the forums. And I'm not sure why SnoWest is forbidden from ever making money off this joint. If it's possible, they'd be crazy not to do so. That is, generally, the point of running a business. Although, I agree that there's definitely a danger that everybody could pull up stakes and move on. I guess that's a possibility they are okay with.

But then I find it hard to believe that the site has never payed it's own way. And why now after all that time is is suddenly imperative to make a buck on us?

Just because they didn't advertise it on here, doesn't mean that it wasn't considered.

I have not set my expectations any higher than they were a month ago.
S/w set the bar. Not me. THEY provided this service for free for years not once even eluding to a possible conversion to a pay site.
S/W is by no means unique in it's comtent or format. I ,like many others will sadly leave a site that we have grown to enjoy for a long time. We will leave to find other sites that offer what S/W offers. But without the fees and the censureship. It will not be the same but in time hopefully many of us will end up on the same site and we can get back to what a sled site should be. Fun, informative and entertaining. Oh and FREE!

Fair enough. Again, it's a gamble moving to a pay model. Might work, might fail. Won't know until the dust has settled.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Are you against companies making money? The forums COST snowest money. PERIOD. They need to survive on it's own. Should this forum be here for CHARITY? Shouldn't the members here pay our own way, you know, like most conservatives on here say? Yet they want this site for free? Interesting where the line between morality and reality exists.

People seem to forget, snowest does not make money. It looses money. The owners have decided that they will no longer operate the site AT A LOSS. Why should they?

I lost money too..I dont know how many parts and peices I spent money on over the years...only to find out it didnt work..then I came here and I told people..hey I tried that..it didnt work..but hey this did..hope it helps you out and saves you the grief I went thru.......so does snowest owe me for coming here and informing their customers that one of their big advertisers parts are junk? those of you advocating a pay site as ok..how many parts have you bought ...put on , taken off because they didnt do as advertised and thrown in the garbage?....you didnt have to go thru that did you?..you came on a forum and found out from a guy like me for free what would work for you...As I stated long ago(at the start of this thread) I will wait and see...but if the majority of those with the knowledge leave..I will as well..this site will not last..free or pay without those select people....no matter what else happens........