Ski-Doo vs Polaris: Handling differences?

[Teth-Air]

All things considered, it has to be a freaking BEAR to design a general sled for this market segment.
So many of us each want something just slightly different!

Actually the Doo clickers don't get near enough credit as they at least try to cater to everyone and every condition. Too bad most guys don't give them much thought.

 

[Teth-Air]

Just replying to my own post to put a finer point on the "twitch". I believe the reason some detect a twitch and others don't is that it may in fact be related to how aggressive the sled shifts as a function of the clicker position and pin weight. There is very detailed explanation of the effects of clicker position in the Skidoo Racing Manual Section 8 Subsection 5.

Quote " In a racing context, the ramp cam adjustment can be used to fine tune engine acceleration...In position 1 and 2, the engine will reach its peak every quickly with some overshoot. This means that the drive clutch will apply less pressure on the belt in its transition between engagement and peak rpm. This could be desirable in fluffy snow conditions that offer little traction" " Position 3 is a good all around position." " In position 4 and 5 the clutch will clamp the belt early after engagement, slowing down the climb in rpm. This can be beneficial in wet snow where a lot of traction is available.

On my 2019 summit 850 175" the factory calibration above 8000 ft recommends position 4 or 5 with the lowest pin weight available. This calibration also raises the engagement from 3300 rpm at sea level to 4100 rpm at ~8K. So IMO the stock factory calibration forces you to a higher clicker position to get rated max shift rpm because there is no lighter weight pin available. With this calibration the belt clamps early at the higher engine engagement rpm which leads to the dreaded "twitch".

Joeys setup lowers the engagement down to about ~2900 rpm at 8K elevation and allows to to run any clicker you want by having an extremely wide assortment of weights using steel at low elevation and titanium at high elevation, a selection good to over 14K. I have always run at clicker 3 but I'm going to experiment in '24 given this new knowledge.

Cinno

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the old TRA clutch went the opposite way for the clickers? Higher number meant higher rpm? What you are saying hear sounds opposite? If so maybe many guys are turning them the wrong way for desired results?? I brought this up with my Doo buddy last year and he had no response.

 

[volcano buster]

On my 2019 summit 850 175" the factory calibration above 8000 ft recommends position 4 or 5 with the lowest pin weight available. This calibration also raises the engagement from 3300 rpm at sea level to 4100 rpm at ~8K. So IMO the stock factory calibration forces you to a higher clicker position to get rated max shift rpm because there is no lighter weight pin available. With this calibration the belt clamps early at the higher engine engagement rpm which leads to the dreaded "twitch".

Cinno

Do you suppose the higher engagement at higher elevation is to compensate for an engine not creating as much power?
By engaging higher it would allow the engine to have more power at hand and feel less boggy.
I don't know anything about Doo clutches but sounds like a nice system if it is auto correcting for elevation.

 

[Cinno]

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the old TRA clutch went the opposite way for the clickers? Higher number meant higher rpm? What you are saying hear sounds opposite? If so maybe many guys are turning them the wrong way for desired results?? I brought this up with my Doo buddy last year and he had no response.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the old TRA clutch went the opposite way for the clickers? Higher number meant higher rpm? What you are saying hear sounds opposite? If so maybe many guys are turning them the wrong way for desired results?? I brought this up with my Doo buddy last year and he had no respon

I don't have any experience with TRA's and little with the newer P-drive. From what I have heard a lower clickers number shifts faster/less revy with lower peak rpm, higher clickers shifts slower/revyier with higher peak rpm. You use the clicker position to get the feel you want and then add/subtract pin weight to get desired peak rpm, however this appears to contradict what the manual says. All this changes based on sled speed and on/off throttle conditions where back shift quality comes into play. I personally would like slower upshift with a revy throttle feel as a slow upshift promotes good backshift. I'm going to experiment this year.

Cinno

 

[Cinno]

Do you suppose the higher engagement at higher elevation is to compensate for an engine not creating as much power?
By engaging higher it would allow the engine to have more power at hand and feel less boggy.
I don't know anything about Doo clutches but sounds like a nice system if it is auto correcting for elevation.

I know the backshift kit lowers engagement from 4100 to about 2800 rpm and engagement is smooth. The skidoo 850 etec is a torque monster at low rpm so it does't require higher rpm as other sleds may. it's very snappy with no bog. As good or better than the Polaris axis and much better than the Arctic cat CTEC I have had in the past.

Cinno

 

[cbull]

Just came across this forum and read all the comments. After which I had to join and state my opinions, lol.
I currently ride a 22 alfa m8000 154 3in track.
This will be my 3rd year riding it. Has 528 miles on it now. Last sled was a 2008 yamaha nitro, and older more trail type sleds. Sold the nytro and went about 12 years without riding at sled at all. So not a ton of experience but I get around pretty good now, I hated the thing at first its a very hard sled to ride. Doing much better with it now that I've learned to side hill pretty decent. But still struggle with it at times. I can hop on a Polaris, ski-doo and ride much better and have more confidence in my abilities. As soon as I can, hopefully this year, I'm ditching this dumb alfa and going to a 5th gen ski-doo summit x with expert package and a turbo. Or MAYBE a Polaris 9r, would definitely go 9r but I don't trust Polaris, I've had polaris's that gave me trouble and seen several pulled back to the truck. Skidoo seems to be quite a bit more reliable.
I totally disagree with what some of you say here about the alfa being easy to ride, for me it's hands down the hardest to ride. Everyone I let ride it feels the same way. Pretty certain it's the mono rail that is the issue. The alfas are like riding a motorcycle with a flat tire, they require a lot of movement, they're unpredictable, and it definitely don't stay put when you're on a side Hill trying to hold a particular line. If you can't ride a Polaris or ski-doo, sorry, but it's you, or the sleds your trying out have issues or are set up weird.

 

[Driver]

When talking about pdrive "clikers" there is one very common misconception, especially when talking about turbo. I hear people say clikers are for compensating altitude, but I see it rather as conditions compensation system.

As we all know, BRP turbo compensates elevation keeping the 180hp until 8000ft. So why then there is different clutching for different altitudes below 8000ft? For example, see this chart: https://cdnmedia.endeavorsuite.com/...ab/2022 High Altitude Clutch Calibrations.pdf

So whats its all about: Well ofcourse its the snow. Around sea level, snow pack is usually lower and kind of light, dry snow. When going up the mountais the snow pack is higher and snow is more wet and dense. We all know that this high altitude deep, wet powder is much heavier than this light cold dry snow and rpm wont be the same.

Ski-Doo has tailor made their setups for different altitudes (=snow). So when season changes snow also changes and you can do the fine tuning with clikers.

If you set cliker 1 step up it usually gives you that extra 100-200rpm and vice versa when going down. But the thing is if you are way too off from calibrated area, clikers aint doing so much. In this case you need to go down/up on primary spring end force or lighter/heavier weights etc.

One more thing. Many times people say that they went down on the clikers but still get the overreving in the beginning when hitting full throttle. They think clikers aint working. Well actually they do but you have to understand how. We need to remember that most common used position for clikers is #3 from the factory. With this position, the clutch will be most linear and logical.

BUT when going for positions #2 or even #1, this changes. With lower positions you will more likely get "overshoot" in the beginning but then it gets steady after longer pull. This is because how the ramp weight angle changes between the positions. Sled will feel more revvy and responsive.

And if you lacking rpm, you wanna go up for #4 and even #5. And what happens with these positions is that clutch enganges "stronger", kind of 4-stroke way. Also it wont feel as revvy but will pull stronger straight from the start. In the end on longer pull you will see higher rpm than you saw on position #3.

Here is an old image from 2017-2018?

 

[Driver]

our group of 8 all thought the gen 5 skidoo was the hardest to ride in mediocre snow. it felt like the bars fought you the whole time. the matryx was much easier to ride but everyone whose ridden my catalyst thought it was easy to ride. I absolutely love my catalyst its easy to overide but you get used to it and its so easy to ride i'm not tired at the end of the day.

I do identify this problem. But there are few simple fixes and not that expensive if you want to improve handling, especially when snow isnt optimal.

First of all, Ski-Doo stock ski rubbers suck big time! Its small, weak an fragile. Will work fine on good powder though. There are many good options, for example: Install rubbers from lynx shredder, salazzking or DJ (havent tried dj myself but I believe it works).

Second one is the spindle, if you are riding summit or older freeride (2023 or older). The deep snow spindle introduced for 2020, has more caster (its "leaning" more back) and brings a bit more stability on high speeds and also more feedback from the ski. 2024+ freeride spindle is more upwards and works better on most conditions. So I would give it a go if ski rubber change wont do enough.

Third one is the ski. If you still feel that front end is too twitchy, best ski replacements are Gripper or SLP Mohawk. SLP is more aggressive, but Gripper is very well balanced all season around ski. Some also do ride the older DS3 ski which they find better. But will be interesting how the 2025 rewised DS4 ski works.

For most of my friends and customers the ski rubber fix is enough. Some have installed new freeride spindles. Very few end up switching the skis also.