The New QRS secondary performs differnt that the older ski-doo secondarys also.
ShockWave adjustible progressive reverse angle HELIX
- Thread starter Wyoming T/A
- Start date
The New QRS secondary performs differnt that the older ski-doo secondarys also.
The only major differance is the skidoo weren't using a roller secondays back in the old days. Doo tried and failed tried and failed....the name of the game still remains keeping the belt sqweezed and the primary heat to a minumim in deep powder. How you get there is up to you.
The secondary always stays cool. LOL
OT
Whats funny is once the 154 or the 163 has shifted all the way out thats the trackspeed you end up with i the deep snow, LOL
By the way lot of talk about shifting all the way out. Just look at the primary sheaves. The sheaves that sqweeeze the belt ID's exactly were the belt is shifting out at. You can also use an EL-MARKO. I think most guys will find out there sled is shifting out as far as it can shift and trackspeed has been a cheived under heavy load conditions such as deep snow.
Back to the helix....The profile of the helix likes to be to be "buffed out" and free of any grim from time to time.
OT
By the way lot of talk about shifting all the way out. Just look at the primary sheaves. The sheaves that sqweeeze the belt ID's exactly were the belt is shifting out at. You can also use an EL-MARKO. I think most guys will find out there sled is shifting out as far as it can shift and trackspeed has been a cheived under heavy load conditions such as deep snow.
Back to the helix....The profile of the helix likes to be to be "buffed out" and free of any grim from time to time.
OT
I'm not running a newer sled till next week as will have a new xp then. However as an 800HO mountain set-up with even the team clutch a Rev angle was crap. My 800 pulls harder than most and I couldn't pull a 52/44 in powder or a 52/42 for that matter. 52 is a great angle for boon docking and jumping up those steep an deep uphill off trail shots. The 42 just holders her back and locks her there 40 though an it busted loose, however that's with a 159x15 2"
Ohh gearing is 226
W
Wyoming T/A
ACCOUNT CLOSED
New reverse angle ramps available in the next few days 
and will fit the existing SW helix so you only need to get the ramps if you have there helix---talk to Ken at Shockwave 
and will fit the existing SW helix so you only need to get the ramps if you have there helix---talk to Ken at Shockwave 
I still don't see the need for the reverse helix. If you are climbing and need 44* at climbing speeds, why have a slower shifting sleds off the bottom (lower number)? I guess i see the point of the finish increasing if you want to try and pull 100 mph on the trail, but these are mountain sleds and we climb with them. Last time i checked, this is snoWEST. Not snoEAST. Show me a reverse angle helix that rips off the bottom as well as a progressive and keeps belt temps down will climbing hard and i'll believe you. At least in WA with our heavier snow, the reverse angled helix's are crap.
W
Wyoming T/A
ACCOUNT CLOSED
Now here a wealth of info from a cat rider
we all need to listen to so we can tune our doo's---i have ridden about 17000 miles at 7500 to 10500 feet in 10 years and have a idea what i need for my sled--go find a stock 2008 m8 and bring it to wyoming and we'll show you how a stock 2008 154 x runs with the 09 clutching
Now here a wealth of info from a cat rider
LOL T/A - kind of a sarcasitc response from you! And why does it matter what kind of sled i ride? I have a decent understanding of clutching, and i ride with 4 XPs every weekend. So far i'm watching my buds 08 XP with just different ramps and adjusted pin weight (stock everything else) consistantly outperform XP 09 clutching everywhere (but the trail!!!). Hmmmm. That's with the 09s clicked to run 8200 rpms too. So tell me again - why would you want low numbers at the beginning of the shift on the helix? it makes no sense to me.
As for the stock 08 M8 compared to stock 09 XP (the only difference is the clutching really on 08 vs -09 XPs) - not really that fair. If it were stock 09 M8 vs the stock 09 XP i'd take the bait. They are quite close actually.
Don't take it wrong either - i think you have a lot of info to give in the forum, but why does it matter if you ridden 17000 miles or not? I was respectfully saying i don't think reverse helix's work well in the mountains. If we always agree with each other on here, nobody would ever learn anything and we'd all be running the trail clutching these sleds come with from the factory.
W T/A, I know you have the experience but mrquick68's logic does seem correct. I have an 08 and have riden the 09. I was very impressed on the trail with the crotch rocket feel of the 09 but I was not impressed in the steep and deep. Maybe better than stock 08 out of the box but the reverse helix does not make sense to me or many I ride with.
I
Insaneboltrounder/sjohns
Well-known member
Must have something to do with the tra/qrs? I talked to the famous turboal again today and he still says to use the helix from a summit 600 and the 160/320 primary spring. He rides , he rides lots and he lives and rides where i ride. What can i say............
and would that what helix be - curious as to the angles sjohns?
and on the topic of tra/qrs - it's true that you can tune the tra to make the most of a reverse helix by changing the ramp design - BUT - is that the best way to make it work? I don't think it is and I'm see it first hand riding right next to these sleds and helping tune them. We are going to run WinterBrew's kit this weekend (snow permitting) and we'll see how it works too. I'm hearing good things
and given his comments on here, i highly doubt its a reverse helix. I've also been looking at the TRA a bunch lately trying to get my head around it. What i'm seeing is a someone ideas of taking the basic primary clutch and making it HILL adjustable (ie the clickers) - cool. The ramp shapes do the exact same thing as different weight profiles offered in Cat's and Poo's -the difference being the ability to easily change the end height of the ramp. So, is it really that hard to tune these things? Well yes because the come so far out of wack - but once you figure out what works it tends to be just small adjustments from there. For example, with the M sleds - they really only like light tip weights, throw a set of king kat heavy tip on there - no backshift at high rpms and really buzzy bottom-end. Ramp profiles are the same thing - just the inverse shape. Find one that loads the motor the way it likes to be loaded, and then get rpms right with the correct pin weight, engagement good with right primary spring... and then go to work on the secondary for a setup that pulls hard off the bottom and backshifts on top without stopping the shift (like a reverse angle will). To the effect - why even run a reverse helix if you riding at 44* under full load? If the motor can't pull through the 44* why even bother increasing the angle after that point? And for that matter, why have shift slower off the bottom with lower numbers than 44*?
Of course this is all my opinion and i've got only 10 miles on a Doo.
I
Insaneboltrounder/sjohns
Well-known member
Im way ahead of you... i have 55 miles on a doo. I admit to knowing diddly about the tra.... so far. I do know that al rides a ton and the best riding in the planet is 20 mins from his door. I figure ill try it out. Oh i think the 600 helix is 38/42 or so. sj
Ya he does ride some of the best right down the road form his place. Was there on the weekend and the pow was deep. didn't get a chance to stop in as we rode too late everyday.
Where u ordering your helix from? dealer or Al? just looked up the part #'s on the doo website but it doesn't give any angles just a #.
L
LRD
Well-known member
I posted the helix for the 09 600ETEC Summit a while back
He talked to Goodwin the next day about the 500SS TNT and his thoughts were that it was geared to high and sec ran into a wall and quit load sensing from the track. He thought the 600ETEC would keep accelerating and pull belt all the way to top of the primary because of low gearing and reverse helix.
He talked to Goodwin the next day about the 500SS TNT and his thoughts were that it was geared to high and sec ran into a wall and quit load sensing from the track. He thought the 600ETEC would keep accelerating and pull belt all the way to top of the primary because of low gearing and reverse helix.
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W
Wyoming T/A
ACCOUNT CLOSED
i'm not saying this set up is the ALL MIGHTY hill climbing king--i am saying for 90 % of the riders if tuned a little it a very good set up--doo also recommends there 41/45 helix for our elevation which i dont have but with the adjustible whether it 41/45 or 41.5/45.5 or 40/44--i can get it with this new helix profile--i also know a dealer who has installed over 30--thirty 09 clutch set ups in the 08 sleds and has yet to pull that set up out of a single sled---i guess those 30 plus riders are all wrong--they all ride from 7500 to 10500 feet--you all can tune your sleds any way you want but i like this set up ,and have NEVER got on anyones thread and told them they were all wrong with there set up or theory--good luck and happy tuning
here are some of our trail riding pic !!!!!!!!!!!!!
here are some of our trail riding pic !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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A new approache
I know the reverse angle is not optimum from an Idealists approach. But I can see why it works. I haven't even rode one with a reverse angle but if you don't want to get beat back to the truck I'm sure it's better than the 08 setup. If it were me I would rather use a softer secondary spring and run a straight helix or a progressive helix angle that changes to the lower number just before your peak shift point on the hill. For a Team the .46 Prog. is not enough even with low gearing it needs to be .36 so it gets into the lower number on the hill. I don't know where the QRS angles change over because I don't use one. Last I checked there weren't nearly the helix options for the qrs which would make the Shockwave a tuners dream come true.
I know the reverse angle is not optimum from an Idealists approach. But I can see why it works. I haven't even rode one with a reverse angle but if you don't want to get beat back to the truck I'm sure it's better than the 08 setup. If it were me I would rather use a softer secondary spring and run a straight helix or a progressive helix angle that changes to the lower number just before your peak shift point on the hill. For a Team the .46 Prog. is not enough even with low gearing it needs to be .36 so it gets into the lower number on the hill. I don't know where the QRS angles change over because I don't use one. Last I checked there weren't nearly the helix options for the qrs which would make the Shockwave a tuners dream come true.
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