ShockWave adjustible progressive reverse angle HELIX

[MontanaPowder]

Good topic

My last 3 revs all modded, soon to have rkt 860 for the xp. In all cases for steep and deep we have cut our own helixs and found the straight cut to be best for steep and deep... For all sleds a 162*2.5 track has been used. One may be able to turn less track with less snow load with a different approach. In my opinion the straight helix is best for backshift, do this first then adjust primary ramps, weight, spring to suit remainder, one needs to eliminate the endless variables so we like backshift quality first. Since 1999 we have always had 3 of same brand snowmobile and have come to this conclusion after much field testing. I have over 40 primary springs from testing, many ramps, many helixes etc. This is what has worked with ski doo. On polaris sleds from 1990 to my triple storm 750 1993 we used a 42-38 helix with the kimpex 2" full block. I think the reason we used to have to use variable helixes is without the NEW roller secondary helixs they would not shift out. NOT the case now wherel all sleds have roller secondaries. With ther roller secondary you can get plenty upshift with a straight cut helix. The change to the newer roller secondaries has changed clutching as we knew it for years. JMO We have used this on rkt 800 sleds and abused a mod 1200 psi twin. Switched the mod on same hill to our straight helix and the mod was untouchable. Food for thought it works on all sleds. You must have CONSISTENT backshift in steep and deep so why use inconsistent angle!

 

[X_RS EXTREME]

The qrs backshifts better than the previous roller clutches. When good backshift is accomplished much easier, it leaves room to improve on upshift. I'm thinking the 47 might be a little steep as well but the 43-47 must run similar to the straight 44 for most of the shift not? What speed would you have to be at to notice the higher angle and loose belt sqeeze?

 

[Sharky 74]

Sw rt

Does the adj. Secondary that is advertised on their web site work on the RT Summit's, and if so has anyone used it that you know of?

Thanks

 

[BIG JOHN]

1143962]The qrs backshifts better than the previous roller clutches.[/B] When good backshift is accomplished much easier, it leaves room to improve on upshift. I'm thinking the 47 might be a little steep as well but the 43-47 must run similar to the straight 44 for most of the shift not? What speed would you have to be at to notice the higher angle and loose belt sqeeze?

This was the the "hump" I got over last year...this thing actually holds the belt and backshifts...

The QRS actually back shifts...so the old school multi that worked great in the formula,RER, roller RER dont apply IMHO...especially for this motor (higher rpm hp/less low end 800R were it needs less cam to up on rpm but more cam to stay loaded = straight angles)...I ran a straight 48 in a 860 at cooke...it worked just fine (had to drop to much pin weight to hold rpm) still held rpm in the pow...so backshift issue isnt a concern...

FYI- this clutch doesnt "loose squeeze"...I actually run a SOFTER finnish load spring to help this clutch...the 43/47 is OK...the 46-47 finnish ONLY applies on the TRAIL when near/full shift full throttle racing applies (no snow load)...the rest of the time (pow) your running a 44-45 degrees...

I think the ramps (more aggressive than the 414) and the 43/47 is why stockers can have rpm issues...first step IMHO is a 413/412 ramp and a 160/320 spring to keep low speed clutch temps down and a little steeper tip to regain rpm with stock pin weight...

DB- your scenario sounds "heavy" on the pins...your gaining rpm/track speed from dropping helix angle...try dropping pin weight and helix back up to 3 turns with that 885...at Cooke my 860s ran 415,160/320,14.5,click 3 and a straight 45 and sled #2 412,16 grams,click 3,160/290 and a straight 44 both sleds ran 8100-8200 in the pow and 8200-8300 on the trail...

Sled#2 beat a Tnytro on the trail drag race (0-90 mph) and made it look bad in 4' snow on the hill...of 40+ sleds the only one stronger was a TM1000...BJ

 

[BIG JOHN]

Does the adj. Secondary that is advertised on their web site work on the RT Summit's, and if so has anyone used it that you know of?

Thanks

its a complete clutch for about $900..I can get one for ya...BJ

 

[DaveB]

DB- your scenario sounds "heavy" on the pins...your gaining rpm/track speed from dropping helix angle...try dropping pin weight and helix back up to 3 turns with that 885...at Cooke my 860s ran 415,160/320,14.5,click 3 and a straight 45 and sled #2 412,16 grams,click 3,160/290 and a straight 44 both sleds ran 8100-8200 in the pow and 8200-8300 on the trail...

Sled#2 beat a Tnytro on the trail drag race (0-90 mph) and made it look bad in 4' snow on the hill...of 40+ sleds the only one stronger was a TM1000...BJ

Good info BJ....but...were your test sleds 163's? Also, Cooke is 9000-10,000 feet and light powder, Revy is 6000-7000 feet and heavy powder.

Some more playing in my future for sure!

 

[Wyoming T/A]

reverse angle ramps for SW helix available in a week or 2
UPDATE---shockwave is building the rev helix in next 2 weeks--they also have reg. progressive and straight ramps and helixs--ramps are ALLl interchangeable for those who have there helix !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LRD]

A good friend of mine just did some testing in the Black Hills at 6000 ft with his new 600 ETEC summit and is very impressed with the doo clutching/reverse helix/ and gearing.

It has 41/45 helix with stock 19/49 gears and he said it pulls hard all the way to 80 mph where it stops. He said appears to take belt all the way to the top of the primary and both clutches are cold. Bottom end acceleration very strong because of the low gearing.

His other sled is a longtracked piped 08 TNT with the Shockwave on it and 21/45 gearing. It would accelerate hard to 60 and then creep up in speed. He's thinking maybe the doo arms or the multi angle primary clutch sheave faces stall the upshift and the backward helix may bandaid this.

Good Luck

 

[Insaneboltrounder/sjohns]

I talked to turboal today and he thinks the rev angle is still the route , just not the one doo has in the 800. Interesting to say the least. sj

 

[Throttle Junkie]

I talked to turboal today and he thinks the rev angle is still the route , just not the one doo has in the 800. Interesting to say the least. sj

maybe it's the wave of the future. Can I get a reverse cut helix in a 21/72?? I figured out that's what I need.

In all seriousness T/A how much are the different ramps once you have the helix? How hard is it to change the ramps out? you have any pics of a SW installed. How long does it take to change the angle on the trail?

 

[DaveB]

Takes 30 seconds to change the angle....real simple stuff.

 

[X_RS EXTREME]

So how fast would you be going before you entered the 46 or 47 degree helix angle?

 

[DaveB]

You'd have to be going downhill at WFO on a sheet of ice....47 is too steep for a Summit.

 

[winter brew]

My .02 (or less ), the helix generates squeeze on the belt. The farther up the shift pattern the less belt contact area there is, and the more squeeze is required to prevent excess slippage. A steeper angle at this point of shift (like a reverse angle) generates LESS belt squeeze. So.....this may work "OK", but what it also means is that if you have a shallow enough angle on the reverse helix to hold onto the belt AND provide good backshift at the mid-latter part of the shift pattern, then you have TOO shallow of an angle at the beginning and are compromising upshift at low-mid shift....meaning slower to build track speed.
Add to this a heavy load situation....BIG track, heavy snow, steep hill and what you have is something that makes more heat and less power to the snow than you would have using PROPER mountain clutching.
The reverse rips on the trail and will probably be fine for the occasional hill rider or guys that can ride more than 50 miles on a tank of gas or rides the hills just a few times a season...but for the guy who rides nothing but hills, needs instant backshift and wants the most from his long track and doesn't want to eat belts, the reverse is probably not the best route to go.
Not saying anything bad about the Shockwave, awesome helix! We sell them and they have their place whether straight, reverse or regular progressive. Just make sure you buy the most appropriate setup for the way you ride.
There are people I would recomend the reverse or straight angle for, just not for the hardcore deep hill riders.

 

[Wyoming T/A]

My .02 (or less ), the helix generates squeeze on the belt. The farther up the shift pattern the less belt contact area there is, and the more squeeze is required to prevent excess slippage. A steeper angle at this point of shift (like a reverse angle) generates LESS belt squeeze. So.....this may work "OK", but what it also means is that if you have a shallow enough angle on the reverse helix to hold onto the belt AND provide good backshift at the mid-latter part of the shift pattern, then you have TOO shallow of an angle at the beginning and are compromising upshift at low-mid shift....meaning slower to build track speed.
Add to this a heavy load situation....BIG track, heavy snow, steep hill and what you have is something that makes more heat and less power to the snow than you would have using PROPER mountain clutching.
The reverse rips on the trail and will probably be fine for the occasional hill rider or guys that can ride more than 50 miles on a tank of gas or rides the hills just a few times a season...but for the guy who rides nothing but hills, needs instant backshift and wants the most from his long track and doesn't want to eat belts, the reverse is probably not the best route to go.
Not saying anything bad about the Shockwave, awesome helix! We sell them and they have their place whether straight, reverse or regular progressive. Just make sure you buy the most appropriate setup for the way you ride.
There are people I would recomend the reverse or straight angle for, just not for the hardcore deep hill riders.

i think you are correct WB--for the guy that climbs to the rocks all day the reverse cut might not be the way to go but for the average rider that goes to the mountains to ride the deep and maybe not climb all day long its going to be a good buy---thats why i'm all for it--they are only going to run 25 to start so my name is on the list for several

 

[Wyoming T/A]

maybe it's the wave of the future. Can I get a reverse cut helix in a 21/72?? I figured out that's what I need.

In all seriousness T/A how much are the different ramps once you have the helix? How hard is it to change the ramps out? you have any pics of a SW installed. How long does it take to change the angle on the trail?

the ramps vary in price
straight 69 a set
var. angle 89 a set
reverse angle 109 a set

takes about 20 minutes to install complete helix and 5 minutes to change the ramps--can get you a picture tomorrow if you need it

 

[Original Tetonice]

If your climbing hills all day or playing in the deep powder all day i don't care if your running a straight helix or multi angle the primary will get hot.

Its pretty easy to witness if your clutch is shifting out correctly. Just inspect your primary sheave after each ride. If you need better backshift from your secondary apply more finish to the secondary spring. As for the helix straight 40,42 and 44 have been proven winners in the mountains for 15 years. Your helix is also load sensing so don't forget to add up the rider weight as part of the load factor.

When your riding deep snow there is a compromise between how tight to sqweeze the belt vs how hot the primary gets.

Since when is a 40,42 or 44 considered steep LOL

OT

 

[LRD]

A good friend of mine just did some testing in the Black Hills at 6000 ft with his new 600 ETEC summit and is very impressed with the doo clutching/reverse helix/ and gearing.

It has 41/45 helix with stock 19/49 gears and he said it pulls hard all the way to 80 mph where it stops. He said appears to take belt all the way to the top of the primary and both clutches are cold. Bottom end acceleration very strong because of the low gearing.

His other sled is a longtracked piped 08 TNT with the Shockwave on it and 21/45 gearing. It would accelerate hard to 60 and then creep up in speed. He's thinking maybe the doo arms or the multi angle primary clutch sheave faces stall the upshift and the backward helix may bandaid this.

Good Luck

Update, my friend talked to Goodwin yesterday and he said the SS likely ran into a wall and wouldn't upshift because it was geared to high.

Said when geared to high the secondary stops torque sensing at a certain point and won't upshift. Said the ETEC clutches likely cold because it was geared so low and also the reason why it could shift all the way out.

So if low clutch heat is result of low gearing a little food for thought for cooler clutches on the 08 and 09's blowing up belts. I have been gearing my small engine sleds incredibly low for years to make them more competitive with my buddys bigger engines from 0 to 30, just need to tune the clutchs until it will take the belt all the way to the top of primary. Sounds like doo finally got one right with the ETECH, at least at 6000 ft.

My friend will gear down the SS to 19/45 next weekend and see what happens.

 

[Throttle Junkie]

As for the helix straight 40,42 and 44 have been proven winners in the mountains for 15 years. Your helix is also load sensing so don't forget to add up the rider weight as part of the load factor.
OT

It depends on what secondary you are talking about....The helix has different torque rating on the clutch so you can't compare helix angles. A 40 degree angle in a cat secondary would not get you out of the garage.

 

[Original Tetonice]

I didn't know this thread was about Cats.

OT