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Revy avalanche

I wouldn't go that far.....

I would say that " If MORE than 1 human is involved in an avalanche, then mistakes have been made"

All the prep and checking in the world wont stop an avalanche ....It is a much better educated risk but crap happens. If you are prepared and riding on slopes without terrain traps and with friends that are prepared you have much better odds. Everybody else should be in a safe zone. The fact that so many educated people were injured says something to me. They knew better than to be in the runout area like that. We all know whats right but sometimes we rationalize risk when the testosterone kicks in.I often ask myself...What would Mike Duffy do?

I think you and I are actually saying the same thing but in different terms.
What you are saying is that they made a mistake.

When I've been around avy training they always say you have 3 choices in avalanche terrain....

1) Ignore the conditions and go anyway.
2) Know the conditions and make a choice of where to go.
3) Stay home and have hot chocolate.

If ONE human is in an avalanche, that 1 human made a mistake that time. They mistakenly chose #1 or #2. They did not choose #3.
If you choose #1 or #2 then you are taking a chance. If an avalanche occurs then it was a mistake to take that chance.


1.) You learn that in snowmobile avalanche training

......

Yep. You learn that in any avy training course.
 
The only guy to blame are the organizers of the event and no one else.

Lets all pretend that this is OK. And everyone in the media or who was not there doesn't have a clue and there just bashing the sport.......Some of you fawking people need to wake up and smell the coffee and stop trying to sugar coat this tragedy while looking an excuse.

Ot


You would be the type of person that would sue McDonalds for making you fat, or for being burned by coffee wouldn't you?
 
RCMP investigating Revelstoke avalanche deaths

Criminal charges to be recommended if evidence supports, say police
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In wake of avalanche tragedy, the search is on for 'Ozone Dave'
'What happened isn't going to stop me,' sledder says
Avalanche victims remembered amid questions about event
Article Video Comments (115)
Robert Matas and Justine Hunter
Vancouver and Victoria — From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
Published on Monday, Mar. 15, 2010 7:05PM EDT
Last updated on Tuesday, Mar. 16, 2010 12:57PM EDT
A team of 10 RCMP investigators have begun an examination into the death of snowmobilers Shay Snortland and Kurtis Reynolds following an avalanche last weekend during the Big Iron Shootout at Boulder Mountain outside Revelstoke, B.C.

Police will recommend criminal charges if evidence supports a charge under the Criminal Code, RCMP Corporal Dan Moskaluk stated Tuesday in a news release.

The investigation, which will gather all available information regarding the fatalities, is expected to take some time to complete, he said. “Given the number of people that attended this event, and the uniqueness of the circumstances, it will be a lengthy and complex investigation,” he said.

The investigators begin their work as questions are being raised about why snowmobilers ignored explicit warnings of avalanche danger and where organizer David Clark has gone.

Public Safety Minister and B.C. Solicitor General Kash Heed announced Monday that regulations for snowmobiling in the back country would be introduced by November, 2011 - but those regulations won't be in place until November, 2011 – leaving snowmobiling unregulated for another winter.

Mr. Heed told reporters the provincial government is looking into a number of new regulations, including licencing, registration of vehicles, insurance and the possibility of temporarily closing mountains at times of high risk of avalanches.

But he categorically ruled out a ban on snowmobiling on provincial land similar to the ban in federal parks. “British Columbia has some of the best outdoor activities [take place] on Crown lands and we want people to enjoy those lands … but we want them to enjoy them responsibly and safely,” he said.

He said he believes government action alone will not prevent fatalities.

Two snowmobilers at a backcountry competition were killed and 30 people were injured last weekend in an avalanche on Boulder Mountain outside Revelstoke, B.C. About 200 people were at the event known as the Big Iron Shootout. Eyewitnesses reported a snowmobiler had raced up the flank of the mountain and over the top. A second snowmobiler could not make it to the top and started back down when the snow gave way.

Several of the snowmobilers at Boulder Mountain were from provinces that required registration and insurance, Mr. Heed said. Many operators who went into the backcountry were experienced. On their way into the area, some would have passed a sign that warned of extreme avalanche danger.

“People who went in there ignored that warning,” Mr. Heed said. “They made the decision to actually go in there.”

No matter what B.C. does as a government, it will be difficult to control and regulate people who decide to engage in risky behaviour, he said. “People need to make those responsible decisions based on experts that tell us when it is dangerous to go in there,” he said.

The government could consider announcing that a mountain is closed, Mr. Heed said. But if people are not paying attention to warning signs that are currently in place, he questioned whether they would pay attention to a closure.

Mr. Heed said no decisions have been made. The government requires the next 20 months to develop a comprehensive policy that snowmobilers in B.C. and those who come into the province will understand.

His ministry is working with the ministries of tourism, forest, healthy living and sport to determine a framework for outdoor recreational vehicles.

“A bit of work is to be done yet to determine exactly what we are looking at and how we are going to go about it,” he said.

In an interview before his press conference, Mr. Heed noted that B.C. is one of the few Canadian provinces that does not require insurance and registration of snowmobiles. “The backcountry is so vast it's difficult to enforce, but where we know these events are going to take place, we have to have the enforcement rules in place,” he said.

He also said the costs for search-and-rescue teams, helicopters and emergency centres will be covered by the provincial government's emergency program.

Some snowmobile enthusiasts dismissed the need for government control over activities in the back country while others questions why the government required until 2011 to bring in regulations.

“Licensing and registration is something that is supported by the B.C. Snowmobile Federation. As an organization under the B.C. Snowmobile Federation, we agree with that,” said Angela Threatful, the executive director of the Snowmobile Revelstoke Society.

New Democratic Party critic Mike Farnworth said he did not see any reason why the government could not bring in the new rules this year. He anticipated the government would consult with snowmobilers, review recommendations from previous coroner's reports and see what other provinces have done. “It's not a question of re-inventing the wheel,” Mr. Farnworth said. “It's only mid-March now. [The new regulations] would not take that long to put together.”

The delay may reflect an unannounced decision by the government to cancel the fall session of the legislature, Mr. Farnworth also said. Mr. Heed would not have an opportunity to bring the changes to the legislature before 2011 without a fall session. “I think the government may have another agenda here,” Mr. Farnworth said.

Les Auston, executive director of the B.C. Snowmobile Federation, said in an interview a trail permits system and licencing would provide an address for safety-related materials to be sent.

Dan Hill, a former president of the Cranbrook Snowmobiling Club who has been snowmobiling for 20 years in the back country, said government rules in the back country may be ineffective.

“You cannot legislate what people are going to do in the middle of nowhere,” he said. Government licensing of snowmobilers would be nothing more than a “cash grab,” he added.

With a report from Nathan Vanderklippe

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I just have a few thoughts.

One- ColoradoGirl, GREAT article. I hope it gets passed around from one end of North America to the other.

Two- Some people here seem to think that "the same old song" is being sung. If you think that avy deaths don't change people's behavior, you are wrong. I lost a friend years ago in a major avy at Turnagain. Several people were killed. I have been very cautious since then. Recently we lost 3 people in Alaska in two separate avy's. Since then one of our friends bought a beacon, his first. I am seeing my friends becoming more conscious of avy danger and taking appropriate steps to mitigate the risk. I say "mitigate" because we're not going to give up sledding or our other back country sports. We will, however, get the appropriate training and tools and then hope we never need to use them.

Three- A few people have brought up the "group dynamic" and "safety in numbers" psychology...and I think that is EXACTLY what happened at Revy and one of the recent avy's here in Alaska. It reminded me of the video "A dozen more turns" where a skier who survived an avy (but his best friend did not) states that one "no" vote should be considered a group vote. The two things that stand out most to me is:
-People should never assume an area is safe just because other people are present- they should do their own hazard evaluation and ensure they are not parked in a runout zone.
-Even if a group is present...even if it's your best friends, and they all want to be there...if you feel it's unsafe, get out. It can be hard to stand up to peer pressure- even unspoken pressure- but in the end we are responsible for ourselves.
 
I think now we're getting back on track. There have been some great, well thought out posts. :) Yes, we can ALL learn...even experts in their field continue learning. That's healthy for everyone if it's done in a manner where no one is being attacked.

As has been said, I'm sure people know mistakes were made. No one can go back and change anything, so the BEST alternative is to move forward and continue with our learning process.

I am also mindful of the fact that this was a life altering, tragic event. In pretty much all forms of EMS, S&R, Law Enforcement, etc...debriefings are held to help folks with what they've been through (I was in EMS for 10 years). The general public doesn't have this available to them. Talking does help, and I would welcome that here. This was a mass casualty incident. How everyone came together immediately afterward is an incredible showing of strength and perseverance. Now that everyone has been through it, I'm sure there is a lot of reflection going on. Please, feel free to share with us if you'd like. Also, if you want to talk, but don't want to do so on the open forum, please feel free to PM or email me....or talk to someone you feel able to share with. Don't keep it bottled up. I'm sure many are struggling with this whole thing.

I encourage the respectful dialogue to continue.

Sandy
 
I think now we're getting back on track. There have been some great, well thought out posts. :) Yes, we can ALL learn...even experts in their field continue learning. That's healthy for everyone if it's done in a manner where no one is being attacked.

As has been said, I'm sure people know mistakes were made. No one can go back and change anything, so the BEST alternative is to move forward and continue with our learning process.

I am also mindful of the fact that this was a life altering, tragic event. In pretty much all forms of EMS, S&R, Law Enforcement, etc...debriefings are held to help folks with what they've been through (I was in EMS for 10 years). The general public doesn't have this available to them. Talking does help, and I would welcome that here. This was a mass casualty incident. How everyone came together immediately afterward is an incredible showing of strength and perseverance. Now that everyone has been through it, I'm sure there is a lot of reflection going on. Please, feel free to share with us if you'd like. Also, if you want to talk, but don't want to do so on the open forum, please feel free to PM or email me....or talk to someone you feel able to share with. Don't keep it bottled up. I'm sure many are struggling with this whole thing.

I encourage the respectful dialogue to continue.

Sandy

Well said Cat Woman......couldn't have said it better myself. Alot of people are grieving and in that process there will be many feelings of anguish, anger, disbelief, guilt, and acceptance, they canvary from hour to hour,and in no order. I think it is important for all of us to be able to voice the way we feel, with a certain level of tolerance to others opinions. If we are a community and a family like I hear on here so often, then this should be a safe place to do that.

Again, thanks to all sledders, S&R, police, volunteers, that reacted so heroically to save so many lives and minimize the damage...it truely is amazing.

I think that it will be tragic if ANYONE gets charged out of this already tragic event. We need to stick together and support each other as already stated by so many.
 
If it snows 3 to 4 feet you might consider. Or at the very minium stay off steep avy prone slopes.

OT

Do/Can you even ride?.....the pic below (you) looks more like a bloated whale. what kind of shocks does it take to get your 400lb body up these steep chutes?...poser!:light:

i cant read peoples replies to him anymore:face-icon-small-dis

otdayatcooke003.jpg
 
I have a lot of empathy & sadness for those that have passed & those that are left behind, I hope their families can move on with the rest of their lives in a positive manner.


On the other hand I am blown away & disgusted by the amount of denial in our community about what happened here. Very few want to admit the amount of negligence that occurred. It think it's shameful & is a disservice to the dead AND more important to those that have survived that people want to dent the reality which is... AN OUTRAGEOUS AMOUNT OF RULES WERE BROKEN HERE. By the riders, by the spectators, but the guy who cut above another rider and on & on... All I see here is poor decision making that needs to be curbed, and if we as a community keep saying that this was "an act of god" or that nobody is at fault, then we look like the morons that the rest of the world thinks we are right now.

I've spent my last couple days fighting this perception on another site, the constant assumption that we're all stupid 2 stroke fueled lackeys seems to be relatively common amongst other bc travelers. Things like this don't help & if people don't start owning up to how we need to CHANGE instead of all the coombayaa bullsh** we'll keep dying, they'll keep being right & the gov't will just have better fuel to regulate us out of the backcountry.


Flame away, I'm the bad guy here.

Great post!

There was a good editorial on page 2 of the Calgary Sun today with a similar message.
http://www.calgarysun.com/news/columnists/michael_platt/2010/03/15/13239376.html

Calgary CTV news took a poll yesterday and the results should scare the pants off all of us. Question asked was "What do you think should happen when the avalanche risk is high?" 65% chose "Trails should be closed." Folks, if we don't do something about this problem, someone else will and I'm afraid we won't be happy about it.
http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/HTMLTemplate?Results&id=179155&pollid=179155&tf=ctvlocal/ctvNewsSub.html&cf=ctvlocal/calgary.cfg&hub=CALGHomeNews&subhub=VoteResult
 
So if they choose to close the mountains at 65% they will have to close everything down including, backcountry skiing, heli skiing, skiing at the ski hill, you name it, if it is done in the backcountry it would all have to be shut down ! They would have a tough time in the Supreme Court trying to close down one sport only ! This will be very interesting to see how something like this will play out !
 
I think now we're getting back on track. There have been some great, well thought out posts. :) Yes, we can ALL learn...even experts in their field continue learning. That's healthy for everyone if it's done in a manner where no one is being attacked.

As has been said, I'm sure people know mistakes were made. No one can go back and change anything, so the BEST alternative is to move forward and continue with our learning process.

I am also mindful of the fact that this was a life altering, tragic event. In pretty much all forms of EMS, S&R, Law Enforcement, etc...debriefings are held to help folks with what they've been through (I was in EMS for 10 years). The general public doesn't have this available to them. Talking does help, and I would welcome that here. This was a mass casualty incident. How everyone came together immediately afterward is an incredible showing of strength and perseverance. Now that everyone has been through it, I'm sure there is a lot of reflection going on. Please, feel free to share with us if you'd like. Also, if you want to talk, but don't want to do so on the open forum, please feel free to PM or email me....or talk to someone you feel able to share with. Don't keep it bottled up. I'm sure many are struggling with this whole thing.

I encourage the respectful dialogue to continue.

Sandy

Thanks writing Sandy and keeping a good tone to this discussion. I have not had the opportunity to read every post in this thread but will keep reading when I have the time. Unfortunately SW Montana sees it's fair share of avalanche fatalities. At the GNF Avalanche Center, we don't point fingers or glorify anyone's actions, but we use every accident as an opportunity for the rest of us (myself especially).

We try to treat everyone with respect. We try to find the positive aspects of every accident and find what was done right. We also try to figure out what could have been done better and learn. Always we come back to the basics and they seem to serve us well. We don't always get it right, and I certainly screw up plenty. Hopefully this discussion can continue and allow all of us to become a little smarter.
Thanks,
Mark Staples
 
GUYS, I CALLed our local medicne hat news paper today to set them straight about what they have called us, i really think our commuinty is being attacked now and we need to set this straight or we could eassly lose what we love to do, it will become a heated convesation, but i hope and think this can be corrected about our reputations

as for the familys of shay and curtis, i offer my condolences and prayers

as i have told my wife and three daughters every month and year i ride, i try in do my best decisions on the hill, but the risk is there and common sense is needed, but still some times $h!t will happen... and no one is to blame for that!!

i LOVE sledding and keep telling them that, and have left family and close freinds know that if i was too die doing this sport, it is something i love to do, and no one is to blame for my bad decision

we were at revy last week 4 days prior to the slide and yes it was a high risk, we new that, and still rode with small avalanches comming down, we still did not feel threatened and had a blast, and do not regret what we had done, my wife after showing her the helmet cam footage was concered and should be, but i still stand behind my decision

i really hope reports from the press do not take away our decisions to ride the backcountry, but i must say it does, it does not look good... i just do not know what i would do if what i loved to do was taken away...

i have ridden now for over 30 years in the mountains and call it home

please dont take imy home away...
 
GUYS, I CALLed our local medicne hat news paper today to set them straight about what they have called us, i really think our commuinty is being attacked now and we need to set this straight or we could eassly lose what we love to do, it will become a heated convesation, but i hope and think this can be corrected about our reputations

as for the familys of shay and curtis, i offer my condolences and prayers

as i have told my wife and three daughters every month and year i ride, i try in do my best decisions on the hill, but the risk is there and common sense is needed, but still some times $h!t will happen... and no one is to blame for that!!

i LOVE sledding and keep telling them that, and have left family and close freinds know that if i was too die doing this sport, it is something i love to do, and no one is to blame for my bad decision

we were at revy last week 4 days prior to the slide and yes it was a high risk, we new that, and still rode with small avalanches comming down, we still did not feel threatened and had a blast, and do not regret what we had done, my wife after showing her the helmet cam footage was concered and should be, but i still stand behind my decision

i really hope reports from the press do not take away our decisions to ride the backcountry, but i must say it does, it does not look good... i just do not know what i would do if what i loved to do was taken away...

i have ridden now for over 30 years in the mountains and call it home

please dont take my home away...
 
Good interview with the wife - Janine Snortland.


Amazing.... this is a very level headed woman that is very composed and articulate. Very sad to see her loss. See has experience a loss that most of us could not fathom and still knows individually choices are made that have consequences


I've not personally been in an avalanche but have been with good friends in terrain that was not ideal. I think collectively we need to have more COURAGE as individuals to tell our groups when we are not doing what we know we should be doing. Thanks to the peeps I ride with for having the COURAGE to do this and I encourage you all to do the same in your groups.
 
I have a lot of empathy & sadness for those that have passed & those that are left behind, I hope their families can move on with the rest of their lives in a positive manner.


On the other hand I am blown away & disgusted by the amount of denial in our community about what happened here. Very few want to admit the amount of negligence that occurred. It think it's shameful & is a disservice to the dead AND more important to those that have survived that people want to dent the reality which is... AN OUTRAGEOUS AMOUNT OF RULES WERE BROKEN HERE. By the riders, by the spectators, but the guy who cut above another rider and on & on... All I see here is poor decision making that needs to be curbed, and if we as a community keep saying that this was "an act of god" or that nobody is at fault, then we look like the morons that the rest of the world thinks we are right now.

I've spent my last couple days fighting this perception on another site, the constant assumption that we're all stupid 2 stroke fueled lackeys seems to be relatively common amongst other bc travelers. Things like this don't help & if people don't start owning up to how we need to CHANGE instead of all the coombayaa bullsh** we'll keep dying, they'll keep being right & the gov't will just have better fuel to regulate us out of the backcountry.


Flame away, I'm the bad guy here.
good post backcountryislife.

Avalanche conditions that day where "EXTREME DANGER"

Take a minute and read this next part.........PLEASE READ AND PASS THIS ON....IT MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE OR THE LIFE OF YOUR LOVED ONES......
ALP TRUTh
Use this checklist to assess snow conditions. As Bruce Tremper clarifies in his outstanding Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain:

Presence of three or four clues is a warning to make your next decision very carefully.
Presence of five or more clues means that you should not continue unless you have expert knowledge to evaluate and manage the avalanche hazard. Even then, your best option may be to choose a safer slope.
Remember: avalanches occur most frequently when the slope angle is between 35- and 45-degrees. Be sure to get a slope meter. Check out Straight Chuter’s review of the Pieps 30-Degrees Plus.

A: Avalanches

Look for avalanche activity in the last 48 hours. Notice the aspects, elevations, and size. Avoid similar slopes.
L: Loading

Look for loading of new or wind-blown snow that has occurred over the last 48 hours.
P: Path

Are you in an obvious avalanche path?
T: Terrain Trap

Are you in a terrain trap like a gully or underneath a steep slope? If an avalanche were to occur, would you get carried into a gully, into trees, or off a cliff?
R: Rating

Is the avalanche rating considerable (natural avalanches are possible and human triggered avalanche likely) or higher?
U: Unstable Snow

Listen for whoomphing sounds and look for cracking, which are tell-tale signs of unstable snow.
Th: Thawing

Has there been a rapid rise in temperature or a prolonged thaw of the snowpack?
FACETS
FACETS is a bit more abstract than ALP TRUTh, but it is just as important. Be mindful of this acronym to mitigate human risks. FACETS helps you get ego, emotions, and the dreaded group-think in check.

F: Familiar Terrain

“Don’t worry. I was here yesterday.” People take more risks in terrain they’re familiar with. Don’t let familiarity fool you. Conditions change minute-to-minute, so treat all terrain like it’s the first time you’ve seen it.
A: Acceptance

Consciously or unconsciously, we try to win over approval from our friends and peers. Pushing on because you don’t want to sound like a worrywart, not speaking up because you don’t want to go against the grain, even though things don’t feel right—these are examples of Acceptance.
C: Commitment

“I’m gonna ski that line/reach the summit even if it kills me.” It might. When we have an overwhelming commitment to a goal or belief, we tend to block out our better judgment and focus on the things that will help us achieve our goal.
E: Expert halo

The person who takes the lead might not always know best. “Oh, he’s been here before and has a lot more experience than I do. It’s probably fine.” Be mindful of these thoughts, and speak up if you’re having them. Chances are someone else in the group is having them, too.
T: Tracks

Everyone loves fresh tracks. When there are multiple parties out to poach a limited number of lines, we tend to take more risks. We want that snow for ourselves. Pay attention to that desire, but don’t give in to it when things are sketchy. Also: existing tracks give a false sense of security. Just because someone skied it doesn’t mean it’s safe.
S: Social Proof

This is the herding instinct or group-think. We like to go with the flow when we’re with groups. It’s easier to step into a dicey traverse when three others have gone before you. Speaking up is one of the hardest things to do. Remember to always assess the situation as if you were traveling alone—even when you’re in a group of “experts.”

It was very unfortunate that 2 people lost their lives....Very sad...VERY PREVENTABLE...
 
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