Power Junkies! 2-stroke Chambers (Domes) for Real Power on Pump Gas.. What if?

[gtfoxy]

Still patiently waiting to here from one of the testers as to the results.

Or see some dyno derived data.

I find it very very hard to understand how this will not cause a complete redesign of the pipe, portime relationship..but..... the world was flat too.
AND turbos don't work on 2strokes..

Where's Wobbly ?????? LOL

Gus

Thanks for the input. I understand your perspective and I appreciate atleast a partial concession of the possibilities. People make the stretches best they can.

All of what you are asking is coming. It will be just a little while before some prelimianry data is available that will make it more relevant to the converstaion. It may be posted, however, in another thread. I would like to keep this mostly descussion on the understaning of how, and why, it works.

I am just scraping the surface here with what I have been discussing. It goes much deeper but I realize some just don't have the scuba gear... That is OK because I have found that some, indeed, do. They are out there and I know it. It is for those that I continue, so that maybe others can learn a little of what I have been taught.

 

[Reese]

If you learn one thing from this thread...

Is this possibly a dertvitave of the turboencabulator?

For a number of years now, work has has been proceeding in order to bring prefection to the crudely conceived idea of a machine that would work to not only supply inverse reactive current, for use in unilateral phase detectors,but would also be capable of automatically synchronising cardinal grammeters. Such a machine is the 'Turboencabulator'. Basically, the only new principle involved is that instead of the power being generated by the relaxive motion of conductors and fluxes, it is produced by the modial interactions of magneto-reluctance and capacitive directance.

The original machine had a base-plate of prefabulated amulite, surrounded by amalleable logarithmic casing in such a way that the two spurving bearings werein direct line with the pentametric fan, the latter consisted simply of six hydrocoptic marzelvanes, so fitted to the ambifacient lunar vaneshaft that side fumbling was effectively prevented. The main winding was of the normal lotus-o-delta type placed in panendermic semiboloid solts in the stator, every seventh conductor being connected by a non-reversible termic pipe to the differential girdlespring on the 'up' end of the grammeter.

Forty-one manestically placed grouting brushes were arrranged to feed into the rotor slip stream a mixture of high S-value phenyhydrobenzamine and 5 percent reminative tetraiodohexamine. Both these liquids have specific pericosities given by p=2.4 Cn where n is the diathecial evolute of retrograde temperature phase disposition and C is the Chomondeley's annual grillage coefficient. Initially, n was measured with the aid of a metapolar pilfrometer, but up to the present date nothing has been found to equal the transcetental hopper dadoscope.

Electrical engineers will appreciate the difficulty of nubbing together a regurgitative purwell and a superaminative wennel-sprocket. Indeed, this proved to be a stumbling block to further development until, in 1943, it was found that the use of anhydrous nagling pins enabled a kyptonastic boiling shim to be tankered.

The early attempts to construct a sufficiently robust spiral decommutator failed largely because of lack of appreciation of the large quasi-pietic stresses in the gremlin studs; the latter were specially designed to hold the roffit bars to the spamshaft. When, however, it was discovered that wending could be prevented by the simple addition of teeth to socket, almost perfect running was secured.

The operating point is maintained as near as possible to the HF rem peak by constantly fromaging the bituminous spandrels. This is a distinct advance on the standard nivelsheave in that no drammock oil is required after the phase detractors have remissed.

Undoubtedly, the turboencabulator has now reached a very high level of technical development. It has been successfully used for operating nofer trunnions. In addition, whenever a barescent skor motion is required, it may be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocating dingle arm to reduce sinusoidal depleneration.

Video for explanation of this marvel

Yep your correct ridecats!

The last time I tried to operate my nofer trunnions without any drammock oil my reciprocation dingle arm failed resulting in severe and unacceptable sheer forces on my gremlin studs. This caused my spamshaft function to deteriorate to the point were my wife told me not to drink so much and to just go to bed or take matters into my own hands.

Oh-well chalk it up to trial and error. Next time I'll use my new turboencabulator and not risk the possibilitiy of a spamshaft malfunction.

good luck, everyone

 

[Backcountry]

Would you check my Cliff Notes version of this thread? Trying to follow along.
"Where a heat engine using a specific combustion chamber design (and to some extent the associated porting arrangement, pipe dynamic, and carburation) promotes homogenization of the charge therein increases average molecular kinetic energy reducing cyclical variation increasing power thru adiabatic processes."

Something I need proven against is the small bore high rpm engine is inherently detonation resistant. Is it proven that the test engine was uncapable of running this high of a compression ratio on that fuel. Was it tested and output measured?

 

[gtfoxy]

Would you check my Cliff Notes version of this thread? Trying to follow along.
"Where a heat engine using a specific combustion chamber design (and to some extent the associated porting arrangement, pipe dynamic, and carburation) promotes homogenization of the charge therein increases average molecular kinetic energy reducing cyclical variation increasing power thru adiabatic processes."

Something I need proven against is the small bore high rpm engine is inherently detonation resistant. Is it proven that the test engine was uncapable of running this high of a compression ratio on that fuel. Was it tested and output measured?

AWESOME!!! That is how you make a statement and ask a Question!

Ok, you have basicly summed it up, yes. But simply summing something up doesn't lead to true understanding, except to those in the "know" of technical terms... There is a Big difference between so called "knowing" and doing. Adiabatic effciency, for example, as it relates to entropy, is not a concept known by all, let alone truely understood. Even understanding this doesn't make people realize how it was done... If you do then by all means I would like to know the "why" and "hows" of every intracacy it was achieved with. Then lets take it a bit farther and discover a way to say .2-.25 BSFC, but in a Large bore, high compression pump gas engine, while doing so in a very low RPM cieling.

This AS for the second question, or that which must be proven against....

Yes inherent in the small chamber orientation of the smaller cc engines, the same principles still hold true, just not as much noticed. Even when things may appear to be correct, the outputs simply don't agree. SO is what is thought to be the case, not the case then? Is it simply a view of a thought process that does not allow for the revelation of true understanding, or is it simply a type of empowered bewilderment and lack of true consideration?

Was the engine ran on low octane fuel? Yes

Was the engine dyno tested? Yes. Hence the "manual" calculation from Bak-in-da-day before people had fancy computer programs to run their figures for them...

What caused the compression failures were Metalurgical issues that in todays age can be eliminated or drasticaly reduced, especialy when introduced in a different application. But to look at the failure alone is a faulty ussumption of continued guilt... We should look instead to the success. That is the reduction of Adiabatic losses! As you so elequently put it.

This is not to say also that one should ignore another concept that is very important I have been pointing out... That an engine views loads at a given rate, if high enough, and fast enough, that it is then viewed then as one continuous, unrelenting force exertion.

So then what of a lower RPM application, One with a bottem end designed for the application? Or perhaps that the engine in the example was not a top end engine, on the contrary it produced an astounding powerband from 5,000 RPM on, and NO the pipe dynamics were not proper. So those BSFC's just may be possible in that scenario in a 14-15:1 application running low RPMS...

Anyone else wonder why I am talking about this stuff? It's not for my health...

 

[Scavenger]

Stagered, not staggered, try running it with out reeds and let me know how bad the reversion is...

Ok, so your new invention needs reeds in order to work? I am running lots of engines without reeds, and they work perfectly!

 

[gtfoxy]

Ok, so your new invention needs reeds in order to work? I am running lots of engines without reeds, and they work perfectly!

You will have a PM.

 

[highwayheavy]

back in the 60' and 70's when a guy named aaen came out with 2 speed drive clutchs, radical new wieght designs, rollers for a secondary, multi angle helix's, adjustable helix's, tuned pipes instead of straight pipes, taper bore instead of straight bore carbs.

I am sure he took some beatings when he was trying to get this stuff going but couldnt tell all his info.


what about the first engineer to say lets move the valves from the blocks of our engines to the heads? think he might have had a few people tell him hes goofy?

nicasil coating, now moly/ceramic coatings cryogenics, 5 years ago most of the masses thought this to be snake oil. now cryogenics and coatings are a norm.

I hope to god this works out and i hope to god i am one of the first local guys to run it at races, it would be fun to show up to a RADAR RUN (wink) and beat the class by 5mph and still have lots of room to grow!!

what about haydays, would it not be fun to be one of the first guys in improved amature class and smoke the pro's??

i know its racing and there is more to it than hp, but when you have 10-20 % more hp to work with over a broader range it sure helps make up for learning mistakes on everything else.

 

[gtfoxy]

back in the 60' and 70's when a guy named aaen came out with 2 speed drive clutchs, radical new wieght designs, rollers for a secondary, multi angle helix's, adjustable helix's, tuned pipes instead of straight pipes, taper bore instead of straight bore carbs.

I am sure he took some beatings when he was trying to get this stuff going but couldnt tell all his info.


what about the first engineer to say lets move the valves from the blocks of our engines to the heads? think he might have had a few people tell him hes goofy?

nicasil coating, now moly/ceramic coatings cryogenics, 5 years ago most of the masses thought this to be snake oil. now cryogenics and coatings are a norm.

I hope to god this works out and i hope to god i am one of the first local guys to run it at races, it would be fun to show up to a RADAR RUN (wink) and beat the class by 5mph and still have lots of room to grow!!

what about haydays, would it not be fun to be one of the first guys in improved amature class and smoke the pro's??

i know its racing and there is more to it than hp, but when you have 10-20 % more hp to work with over a broader range it sure helps make up for learning mistakes on everything else.

Thank you for the kind words and support! It goes a long way to brighten my Spirit!

Do I in any way think myself to be on the level of Aaen or ones such as that? By no means!

I simply have been showed a perspective and a way of approaching things from a fundamental level. Things are complex, yes. Things are also elementary.

 

[gtfoxy]

Wow a lot in this thread, but just a question gt, are you kinda using the principles of the plane guys where they run lean of peak?

I have been following that stuff for awhile now and talked with them, and you do get more power, less fuel consumption and lower operating temps.

Just wondered if you kind of were also going including those same lines of theory in your quest?

Sorry I missed your post until now.

I don't quite get what your asking.

Lean of what? Ideal stoich? or max power lean????

Who is this "Them" you refer to?

If you are on the right side of the fence on certain things then yes leaner than stoich is possible at WOT at full load. If not, Kaboom!

Maybe I aswered this already without meaning to, Im just asking.

 

[rmk915]

I'm not stupid, Just crazy!
Don't think for a minute that I would come on a national site like this and drop a baited hook in the water without the test to haul in what I am fishing for.

The design I am talking about has been proven, now it needs to be validated.






Volunteers needed!
I am in need of 5 very specific test subjects to run these chambers, for FREE!. Before people get excited and I receive a bunch of requests I must be very clear on what I am looking for in test subjects.




who did you find to test this amazing chamber design. lets hear from them. sounded to me by your first post, you had working prototypes ready to go on and be tested.

 

[sledr2]

Would an increased "Pathway" play a part in this head design?

 

[sneak]

If ANY one wants to see what I am doing, I made it really clear, you need to simply volunteer.

Well, I DID volunteer. When do I get to see something????????????????

 

[highwayheavy]

next summer i might be using my sled to try a set of these heads, possibly sooner, but summer time I can afford to have the sled apart.

 

[highwayheavy]

I also hope that noone else runs them in my area, becuase if i can make 5% more hp than the competitors without nitrous or other stuff, why not do it?

 

[mustang316]

"Here are the Specs, it was a 80cc Yammy, 28mm carb, with 21:1 Compression. It made right at 50HP at 21,000RPM and it has been calculated as to have been running at a .3-.28 BSFC."

BS, these numbers are impossible with an SI engine.

"Yes we have designs for some snowmobile engines but certainly to be sure it would be best to have a head for test-fitting/making sure the fitting/tolerances are spot-on. We would certainly be happy to receive heads. Our mailing address is on our site - www.twostrokeshop.com

Just a note - in order to run toroidal head inserts you need to run flat-top pistons, i.e. toroid heads are not designed to work with dome-topped pistons.

If the mythic head design spoken of in vaguest terms in this thread bears fruit, and topples the toroid from its max deto resistant throne, I shall be the first to applaud. Call me old-fashioned, but I like to see facts and evidence and dyno runs and things like that, in order to swallow claims of supremacy. Or at the very least, open presentation of ideas/concepts/designs.

All these vagaries do is annoy people, and erode confidence in whatever merit may exist.

Theories have to be fleshed out. This one doesn't even have a skeleton. There's no 'fault or misrepresentation' in what gtfoxy has said because, if we're being strict about it, nothing has actually been said. More politician than snake oil salesman ... ?

Yes, put up or shut up. That is how the real world operates. There's nothing 'personal' about this, no need to take umbrage.

Don't get me wrong; for the sake of two-stroking enjoyment I hope there is a new and revolutionary head design and should it bear fruit I will doff my hat respectfully. But nobody, nobody can expect to come on an open forum where thinking, discerning people are in attendance, and make blank statements/hollow hints/'what if' conjecture, and not be accused of wasting peoples' time (at best.)

If the head design is 'open source' then why the cloak and dagger? And loaded accusations that 'people don't understand the concept'? Now it's just plain silly to say that on the one hand and on the other hand, be all coy about just what it is you are postulating. One would have to question the motives behind this obtuse behavior - is it self-aggrandisement, or some sort of 'peer tease' jig, or some kind of 'I know best' complex? Who can know? Because the author is saying nothing of any substance.

And so, how could anyone correctly understand 'the concept' when it is shrouded in mystery - and seemingly needlessly, I might add?

And why would the author not perform full-scale tests on his own sled engines, and then release confirmed findings? Seems off to be asking others to risk running what is obviously an unproven design on their own engines - and doing free R&D for the author??? Too excited to actually spend the required time to R&D the concept, and feeling the need to spread a flurry of excitement around this singularly brilliant idea?

There are proper ways and means to propagate new and worthy technologies. Then again, I do take the point that radical new ideas may well justify novel approaches. I do hope this is a good working idea with a sound basis in physics and fact.

Not to be unkind; but the balance of probabilities - based on typical human evasive patterns of behavior as evidenced here - are that the 'breakthrough' being alluded to is going to pan out to be all gas and no class. Yet I would welcome being proved wrong."

Exactly. This is guys correct, and the toroid head design is the mostly likely concept for the "revolutionary" head design. Because it shortens the flame distance to the end gasses, shortening combusiton durations which gives the end gasses less time to autoignite (knock).

Nothing new here, its all been done before.

 

[sneak]

Good one...

If we go back over what exhaust heat is and where it really comes from we can easily tell if it is indeed doing a better job at energy conversion by simply monitoring EGT's. If EGT's drop after a particular chamber is swapped for another one then we know there is more Kinetic enegry from the combustion process being turned into useable torque. Torque increases, at any RPM, equate to more HP.

Nonsense, EGT is not a measure of energy conversion!
I can make changes to a head that will lower EGT with no increase in torque. I can make a head that will detonate an engine to pieces and that will lower EGT, no gain in torque.

 

[gtfoxy]

Nonsense, EGT is not a measure of energy conversion!
I can make changes to a head that will lower EGT with no increase in torque. I can make a head that will detonate an engine to pieces and that will lower EGT, no gain in torque.

It is if seen in the context of a properly designed chamber.

It would be near impossible to ascertain exactly what changes lead to what results without first understanding the scope and context of the operating engine dynamics of the engine, or engines in question.

I stand by my statement that excessive residual heat energy is the result of failed energy conversion. Detonation damage can also be viewed in the same manner. It can all be seen as an indicator of the adiabatic system present at the time of attempted energy transfer. The environment is what is critical, not necessarily one arbitrary number vs another.

You will have a PM though.

 

[highwayheavy]

we will know soon enough when he gets a set made for his sled. by simple clutch adjustments we will be able to tell how they are working. if he comes back after the dialing in the heads and says he is running 2 more grams than stock, then he made a significant gain!

please dont give me a bad post on this one.

 

[MCIVER]

So what ever happened here, did anyone get a head from him, was this all BS ? seems odd that this thread just up and died.

 

[winter brew]

TTT