Power Junkies! 2-stroke Chambers (Domes) for Real Power on Pump Gas.. What if?

[twostrokeshop]

Steve, do you guys have head designs for snowmobile engines? Or would you just need someone to send you a stock head to match?

Yes we have designs for some snowmobile engines but certainly to be sure it would be best to have a head for test-fitting/making sure the fitting/tolerances are spot-on. We would certainly be happy to receive heads. Our mailing address is on our site - www.twostrokeshop.com

Just a note - in order to run toroidal head inserts you need to run flat-top pistons, i.e. toroid heads are not designed to work with dome-topped pistons.


If the mythic head design spoken of in vaguest terms in this thread bears fruit, and topples the toroid from its max deto resistant throne, I shall be the first to applaud. Call me old-fashioned, but I like to see facts and evidence and dyno runs and things like that, in order to swallow claims of supremacy. Or at the very least, open presentation of ideas/concepts/designs.

All these vagaries do is annoy people, and erode confidence in whatever merit may exist.

Theories have to be fleshed out. This one doesn't even have a skeleton. There's no 'fault or misrepresentation' in what gtfoxy has said because, if we're being strict about it, nothing has actually been said. More politician than snake oil salesman ... ?

Yes, put up or shut up. That is how the real world operates. There's nothing 'personal' about this, no need to take umbrage.


Don't get me wrong; for the sake of two-stroking enjoyment I hope there is a new and revolutionary head design and should it bear fruit I will doff my hat respectfully. But nobody, nobody can expect to come on an open forum where thinking, discerning people are in attendance, and make blank statements/hollow hints/'what if' conjecture, and not be accused of wasting peoples' time (at best.)

If the head design is 'open source' then why the cloak and dagger? And loaded accusations that 'people don't understand the concept'? Now it's just plain silly to say that on the one hand and on the other hand, be all coy about just what it is you are postulating. One would have to question the motives behind this obtuse behavior - is it self-aggrandisement, or some sort of 'peer tease' jig, or some kind of 'I know best' complex? Who can know? Because the author is saying nothing of any substance.

And so, how could anyone correctly understand 'the concept' when it is shrouded in mystery - and seemingly needlessly, I might add?

And why would the author not perform full-scale tests on his own sled engines, and then release confirmed findings? Seems off to be asking others to risk running what is obviously an unproven design on their own engines - and doing free R&D for the author??? Too excited to actually spend the required time to R&D the concept, and feeling the need to spread a flurry of excitement around this singularly brilliant idea?

There are proper ways and means to propagate new and worthy technologies. Then again, I do take the point that radical new ideas may well justify novel approaches. I do hope this is a good working idea with a sound basis in physics and fact.

Not to be unkind; but the balance of probabilities - based on typical human evasive patterns of behavior as evidenced here - are that the 'breakthrough' being alluded to is going to pan out to be all gas and no class. Yet I would welcome being proved wrong.

 

[Norway]

I'll admit first off that I was not able to follow gtfoxy in his explaining. And my mind would be pretty stuck in the old tracks of A. Graham Bell..

BUT, I'm going to keep half an eye on this cuz although he's a bit to much of a tease I like where his thoughts are going.

We say that on modern engines 1/3 of the power can be measured on the crank, another 3rd goes out the exhaust and the last 3rd out the cooling system (please dont hit me with 2% this or that way!!). What a waste!?!

You may be a top notch tuner with awesome knowledge about airflow, porting angles and pipe-cones, but there is something else hidden here.
When gas and oxygen reacts it releases CO, CO2, NOx and more that I've forgotten + ENERGY!!

We just take for granted that energy and heat are the same things, but they are not. Yes they are closely related and converting the energy stored in gas to push on the piston cannot be made completely without heat, but what if you could alter the equation?

gtfoxy talks about waves and pulses and whatnot. Maybe he's found a new way to skin the cat? What happened with 2-strokes in 1954?? Walter... DKW..

Rant over!

gtfoxy: one last thing, this is a SLEDDING site. When we want to take leaps in technology we want the sled to be lighter, stronger, faster etc. When it runs the best we can afford/have time to we want to ride, not lock ourselves up in the basement with 2-stroke engine parts...

RS

 

[gtfoxy]

Yes we have designs for some snowmobile engines but certainly to be sure it would be best to have a head for test-fitting/making sure the fitting/tolerances are spot-on. We would certainly be happy to receive heads. Our mailing address is on our site - www.twostrokeshop.com

Just a note - in order to run toroidal head inserts you need to run flat-top pistons, i.e. toroid heads are not designed to work with dome-topped pistons.


If the mythic head design spoken of in vaguest terms in this thread bears fruit, and topples the toroid from its max deto resistant throne, I shall be the first to applaud. Call me old-fashioned, but I like to see facts and evidence and dyno runs and things like that, in order to swallow claims of supremacy. Or at the very least, open presentation of ideas/concepts/designs.

All these vagaries do is annoy people, and erode confidence in whatever merit may exist.

Theories have to be fleshed out. This one doesn't even have a skeleton. There's no 'fault or misrepresentation' in what gtfoxy has said because, if we're being strict about it, nothing has actually been said. More politician than snake oil salesman ...

Yes, put up or shut up. That is how the real world operates. There's nothing 'personal' about this, no need to take umbrage.


Don't get me wrong; for the sake of two-stroking enjoyment I hope there is a new and revolutionary head design and should it bear fruit I will doff my hat respectfully. But nobody, nobody can expect to come on an open forum where thinking, discerning people are in attendance, and make blank statements/hollow hints/'what if' conjecture, and not be accused of wasting peoples' time (at best.)

If I mis-interpreted your post then I appologize. You have to understand when working with something that is capable of what the design is, then a certain amount of "With-held" information is absolutely necessary.

Would I love to VERY openly show this right here and now? YES!

Please understand, however, the direction from which I am coming. Does not a Armored transport company keep its transfer under lock and key until it is known to be in a safe place?

This has to be done in a very particular manner that will allow it to be available and open, as well as understood, to all who wish to enjoy it's benefits, all at a reasonable market price. If I do not proceed in a very specific manner then that may not occur.

Certain things in particular let me know that the technology, from one aspect or from many, and there are MANY, that the total engine dynamics of the applications in which your business is primarily comprised, is not to the level in which I am discussing in this open forum. If it were, I would be able to quickly identify it as close or near close to the level of energy conversion I am refering to. At that point I would have been contacting you for some discussions in priveate. I saw your dyno sheets, your pipe designs, your carburation systems, all of it. You have some very nice stuff... I could easily kill myself on that little pocket rocket you have! Evaluating these things from my persppective simply leads to my prior conclusion and nothing else. It is not meant in any way to discount or put down what you have or do, it is simply an observation.

I completely understand everyones reseve about what I am saying here. It goes against known convention and that is sometimes a very hard pill to swallow.

No amount of my condoling will make you beleive me. Please understand that your belief, or anyone elses for that matter, is not a requisite for me to continue moving forward in the direction needed for accomplishing my goals. I would ask all for a little patience with this. I assure you that it will be worth the wait.

That being said there is no reason we can not engage in some things from the aspect of trying to understand certain mis-conceptions of the energy exchange process that would lead to a greater and broader understanding of what is possible in energy converison and proper engine dynamics.

I thought that was what open forums, such as this, were INTENDED for!

This post was NEVER intended to be a releasal forum for me, but simply a discussion on "What if..?". I though I made that very clear from the begining but somehow people jumped to conclusions and then began to come after me asking for "proof". If i had it all then why would i have asked for some help in evaluating it in this market demographic? That is backward thinking and not worth my time in counteracting.

It will come, it just takes time. Could I post the dyno numbers of the test engines develoment, yes, they very well could. But until the "How" is understood first, then that data would be all the more better comprehended and received. Understand?

How about you come in and help the guy who posted trying to understand what it was that I was asking in my question on the previous page. Why didn't you? You seem to be very knowledgeable and capable of understanding some very complex perspectives. Is it perhaps because you would rather have come after me and my attempt at eduacating poeple? Or is it because you don't know the answer?

A certan level of wisdom is needed here... Happy is he who beleives without seeing... and patience is a virtue reserved for the Wise. I have been VERY patient in my work to this point and I will continue to do so for the sake of what I feel needs to be done to accomplish the goals I have set out for myself. You must understand that not you or anyone else is going to change that.

I have selected a very few number of select people that know well what I am working with, one of them spoke openly already. If that is not good enough for you, or anyone else, then I am sorry, but that is the way it is going to be.

 

[RudeAwakening]

i have a question. and please understand that i am dumb when it comes to the inside of an engine. my understanding is that heat causes deatanation, so what you are saying is that there was a way to make less heat in the combustion procsse, (make combustion more effecent) you could inturn raise the compression and make more power while still using a lower octain fuel? sooo, when the piston goes TDC there is always a certen spot in that volume of air and fule that is hotter then the rest that causes the detionaton to happen? or is it the same temp in the entire volume? i am thinking that the shape of the dome can cause the energy to focuse to a smaller point in the combustion chamber that is hotter then the rest. (kinda like how you magnafie light or a dish to focus energy) so you would want a design that allows the heat to be more even in the intire chamber? im sure this is totaly wrong.

 

[gtfoxy]

I'll admit first off that I was not able to follow gtfoxy in his explaining. And my mind would be pretty stuck in the old tracks of A. Graham Bell..

BUT, I'm going to keep half an eye on this cuz although he's a bit to much of a tease I like where his thoughts are going.

We say that on modern engines 1/3 of the power can be measured on the crank, another 3rd goes out the exhaust and the last 3rd out the cooling system (please dont hit me with 2% this or that way!!). What a waste!?!

You may be a top notch tuner with awesome knowledge about airflow, porting angles and pipe-cones, but there is something else hidden here.
When gas and oxygen reacts it releases CO, CO2, NOx and more that I've forgotten + ENERGY!!

We just take for granted that energy and heat are the same things, but they are not. Yes they are closely related and converting the energy stored in gas to push on the piston cannot be made completely without heat, but what if you could alter the equation?

gtfoxy talks about waves and pulses and whatnot. Maybe he's found a new way to skin the cat? What happened with 2-strokes in 1954?? Walter... DKW..

Rant over!

gtfoxy: one last thing, this is a SLEDDING site. When we want to take leaps in technology we want the sled to be lighter, stronger, faster etc. When it runs the best we can afford/have time to we want to ride, not lock ourselves up in the basement with 2-stroke engine parts...

RS

Very good, some rational thought here.

Yes Heat is a form of energy but we need to realize that heat is simply the last rung on the ladder before it goes into the "Sink", what ever that is... There is then a "Source" and then a "Sink". The Source must always be equal to or greater than the Sink, that is simply the natural process of all energy variations as we see them. I have my own theories but that is not the point.

If heat enegry is allowed to persist and its "virtues" or an "ability" to create certain mass acceleration, then it remains as heat energy and is then absorbed and wasted, or atleast "Sent" down another pathway. To it's final destination the "Sink". Or more accurately that the heat is a byproduct of the acceleration, not vise versa, as in this case.

We must view, also, each molecule as having energy stored in it. Energy necessary for those bonds to hold in our particular state of being and in our known environment. If it wasn't for this energy then gasoline, diesel, etc would not be of any use and combustion as we know it would not exist. Also, that energy came from some where, or "to" the plants that constitute the fuel we use. It was from sunlight millions of years ago, that is Pure energy the plants used to live, they just altered the way the energy was used...
Look at it from this perspective also, Steel as a solid is only as solid in our world, on the top, in the belly of our world it is a molten magma, in other places in the universe a plasma...the last step, many believe, to being pure energy... Do see what I am saying here?

The heat enegry has its place.. but it is not a requisite for its state, pressure changes this state as much as purely adding heat energy...

I want to make one thing VERY clear: I did not discover any of this. I was taught it! I was blessed enough to have a person who saw a potential in me of being able to understand these concepts and this technology and apply them universaly. I was Entrusted with it to move it forward how I see fit. I could do anything with it I wish. I have one simple philosophy though... Those who Learn, Teach, Those who get, Give! That is why I am here saying what I am saying sharing what I am sharing.

 

[Scavenger]

GTFoxy:

Are you saying that you want to keep the scavenge flow and the return pulse from colliding, thus avoiding converting their kinetic energy into heat energy which will heat the A/F mix?

 

[gtfoxy]

i have a question. and please understand that i am dumb when it comes to the inside of an engine. my understanding is that heat causes deatanation, so what you are saying is that there was a way to make less heat in the combustion procsse, (make combustion more effecent) you could inturn raise the compression and make more power while still using a lower octain fuel? sooo, when the piston goes TDC there is always a certen spot in that volume of air and fule that is hotter then the rest that causes the detionaton to happen? or is it the same temp in the entire volume? i am thinking that the shape of the dome can cause the energy to focuse to a smaller point in the combustion chamber that is hotter then the rest. (kinda like how you magnafie light or a dish to focus energy) so you would want a design that allows the heat to be more even in the intire chamber? im sure this is totaly wrong.

You are starting along the right path in your thinking, but it gets more complicated than that.

You need to take the heat input into the causes of detonation and pre-ignition (they are very different in cause and result, you must understand) and how they apply to each form of uncontroled ignition and combustion, only then can you undersatnd how to avoid these causes.

I am not going to hand anything out, it must be earned by searching, and in searching do you fully understand when you find it.

I have already touched on these things, even if only very briefly and in very short. Go back an re-examine what I have stated. It is there, trust me.

Now focusing the energy input is another thing entirely. You need to see this as a force exertion and nothing else. But what is important is WHERE and HOW that force exertion needs to be placed to get the most benefit. Also, the state of the gases in the chamber play a big part in this... It is simply a calcualtion of the complete dynamic, each having its own part and function. Just as in your magnifying glass example, which was quite good and along the right path, you need to imagine what it is that it is you are trying to accomplish and what is the most direct way of achieveing this and the things that make it not work... They are all one in the same.

 

[gtfoxy]

GTFoxy:

Are you saying that you want to keep the scavenge flow and the return pulse from colliding, thus avoiding converting their kinetic energy into heat energy which will heat the A/F mix?

You are close here... Just not from the correct perspective. I am not talking the reversion wave in the exhaust, that rides on its own merit. I am talking about the one that has to do with induction flow. Now, Re-establish what the reversion pulse is, from the correct perspective I was sharing above, and then move forward.

You just need to think, which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

 

[Scavenger]

I must say that I do not follow you here.

Reversion in the intake flow? I guess that, by intake flow, you mean the transfer flow into the cylinder?

If so do you mean the fact that there is severe reverse flow into the transfers just as they open?

If so, in what way can you affect this with the chamber design?

 

[gtfoxy]

If so do you mean the fact that there is severe reverse flow into the transfers just as they open?

If so, in what way can you affect this with the chamber design?

Lets review what it was that I asked and what it was pertaining to.

Now we need to understand what else would lead to poor distribution in the cylinder and cause poor V.E.

I have laid a lot out there for people to digest. I have a lot of work to do and now I want to see who has been paying attention.

It is now time for me to ask the questions.

This is where I am now going to ask a question and we'll see what ideas are out there, (Except you Analyzer, I already taught you this one), in regards to 1st identifying the problem, and then what a solution would be. I will even give a hint.

Problem: Poor distribution into the cylinder.

Hint: It has to do with Reversion.

I was not asking about how a chamber design impacts this, but more how this impacts distribution and V.E. Then what is the cause then the effect and then that effect. That is the essence of the question. All this from the perpsective of a cyclical cycle that you brought up.

 

[Thunder101]

Well got to jump in here, Definitly a good read. started off as a concept head-dome design and from there , well now we are thinking of the path of the intake charge and the path of exaust gases. are we building- designing a new engine or are we still talking about a head design ? Im always interested in
2stroke info just so many variables all in two strokes. Lets see we have the
Singh crooves ?
This reads like you are taking about a leaner burn,- that makes less heat all from a head design, are we still burning gasoline as our fuel ? How about this , a question for you what are the short comings - design flaws of your design ? after all it cant be a slam dunk or someone would want to give you a **** load of cash.

 

[gtfoxy]

Well got to jump in here, Definitly a good read. started off as a concept head-dome design and from there , well now we are thinking of the path of the intake charge and the path of exaust gases. are we building- designing a new engine or are we still talking about a head design ? Im always interested in
2stroke info just so many variables all in two strokes. Lets see we have the
Singh crooves ?
This reads like you are taking about a leaner burn,- that makes less heat all from a head design, are we still burning gasoline as our fuel ? How about this , a question for you what are the short comings - design flaws of your design ? after all it cant be a slam dunk or someone would want to give you a **** load of cash.

I am trying to get people to realize that the path to true engine efficiency is a mulifacited one that in order to find it, and understand it when it is found, takes a certain thought process from a certain perspective.

We got transitioned from simply discussing a chamber design, or more over the things needed for a chamber design to reduce, to a great extent, pre-ignition/ detonation, because I have put out just about all the necessary information, that if viewed correctly, leads to an understanding of what needs to occur. So then when it is revealed, it can be understood. I was asked about cyclical cycles and their impact on what effect that has on over all engine dynamics and how it would effect the capabilities of this design. Or how what I have over comes these things. But in order to answer that we must first understand what causes these cyclical variations. Only then can we know for certain the impact because being it is cyclical, my design can be effect by this as can the cycle itself... they are inter-related you see.

But what is really important is that in the case of nearly ideal cyclical replication, that current chamber models still come up short. I answered the question best I could, but in order to understand the answer I gave we needed to dive deeper as to what then would be the limitation of this design.. and how this cyclical variation is created and understood, then worked to be eliminated... understand?

Leaner burn is not the answer, you want a stratified stoich burn. Stoich being to not what a given Air/Fuel ratio being inducted into the motor is, but correlating to the that burn inside the chamber itself. That is only possible, in its entirety, if certain engine dynamics are present.

What I mean by this is as follows:

You have carb set up to deliver a 12.5:1 A/F ratio as calculated by air/ fuel mass calculation. But if distribution and homoginization is not proper, when the mixture gets burned in the chamber, which is effected in part by the chamber itself, certain portions of that chamber may be rich, some may be lean. This effects energy conversion because of the formation of the gasious molecules, in the chamber can not complete, or splitting occcurs, because stuff just isn't where it needs to be to get the job done right. Unfortunately this does not even itself out in the end and energy is wasted, or brought into the next cycle, as I stated before. So what you want is a situation where the burn in the chamber is to that of what the calculated mass ratios are. That is a stratified, or stoich burn, not a stoich ratio...

many will undoubtedly know this, but yet not too many, even proffesional tuners, work from a fundamental level to stop it.

Leaner then beyond that, once these major dynamics have been met, would depend on what you are trying to achieve beyond stoich ratios. What I am saying is then,once this situational combination is met, you could go in the direction of 15, 16, even 17:1 A/F ratios @ full load in this case. Engine power would then not be the focus, but simply using less fuel.

As far as a "slam dunk" design goes, I will simply say this; When tested in an engine that all these engine dynamics were nearly perfect, the limit to the designs capability could not be found. This was due to the fact that the engine could no longer handle the compressive loads/ cycle over time to stay in a proper state of tune. It basicly self destructed. It was addressed and addressed, but the loads were simply too great. That IS energy conversion!

 

[RIDECATS]

Is this possibly a dertvitave of the turboencabulator?

For a number of years now, work has has been proceeding in order to bring prefection to the crudely conceived idea of a machine that would work to not only supply inverse reactive current, for use in unilateral phase detectors,but would also be capable of automatically synchronising cardinal grammeters. Such a machine is the 'Turboencabulator'. Basically, the only new principle involved is that instead of the power being generated by the relaxive motion of conductors and fluxes, it is produced by the modial interactions of magneto-reluctance and capacitive directance.

The original machine had a base-plate of prefabulated amulite, surrounded by amalleable logarithmic casing in such a way that the two spurving bearings werein direct line with the pentametric fan, the latter consisted simply of six hydrocoptic marzelvanes, so fitted to the ambifacient lunar vaneshaft that side fumbling was effectively prevented. The main winding was of the normal lotus-o-delta type placed in panendermic semiboloid solts in the stator, every seventh conductor being connected by a non-reversible termic pipe to the differential girdlespring on the 'up' end of the grammeter.

Forty-one manestically placed grouting brushes were arrranged to feed into the rotor slip stream a mixture of high S-value phenyhydrobenzamine and 5 percent reminative tetraiodohexamine. Both these liquids have specific pericosities given by p=2.4 Cn where n is the diathecial evolute of retrograde temperature phase disposition and C is the Chomondeley's annual grillage coefficient. Initially, n was measured with the aid of a metapolar pilfrometer, but up to the present date nothing has been found to equal the transcetental hopper dadoscope.

Electrical engineers will appreciate the difficulty of nubbing together a regurgitative purwell and a superaminative wennel-sprocket. Indeed, this proved to be a stumbling block to further development until, in 1943, it was found that the use of anhydrous nagling pins enabled a kyptonastic boiling shim to be tankered.

The early attempts to construct a sufficiently robust spiral decommutator failed largely because of lack of appreciation of the large quasi-pietic stresses in the gremlin studs; the latter were specially designed to hold the roffit bars to the spamshaft. When, however, it was discovered that wending could be prevented by the simple addition of teeth to socket, almost perfect running was secured.

The operating point is maintained as near as possible to the HF rem peak by constantly fromaging the bituminous spandrels. This is a distinct advance on the standard nivelsheave in that no drammock oil is required after the phase detractors have remissed.

Undoubtedly, the turboencabulator has now reached a very high level of technical development. It has been successfully used for operating nofer trunnions. In addition, whenever a barescent skor motion is required, it may be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocating dingle arm to reduce sinusoidal depleneration.

Video for explanation of this marvel

 

[icr]

^^^ well played

 

[MARCUSO]

OK I am mostly following this, and kinda understand the jibberjabber, but can admit that I know enough that I shouldn't make a comment..LOL

but a good read nevertheless.

You talk about reversion.
(return to a previous state)

I think you are tinkering with the reverberation of the exhaust, I have an idea that I had for some time, but don't know if it would work...


I did however notice a big name engine builder that is following this thread... I am wondering if he can chime in with his .01$ Canadian///

 

[gtfoxy]

Is this possibly a dertvitave of the turboencabulator?

For a number of years now, work has has been proceeding in order to bring prefection to the crudely conceived idea of a machine that would work to not only supply inverse reactive current, for use in unilateral phase detectors,but would also be capable of automatically synchronising cardinal grammeters. Such a machine is the 'Turboencabulator'. Basically, the only new principle involved is that instead of the power being generated by the relaxive motion of conductors and fluxes, it is produced by the modial interactions of magneto-reluctance and capacitive directance.

The original machine had a base-plate of prefabulated amulite, surrounded by amalleable logarithmic casing in such a way that the two spurving bearings werein direct line with the pentametric fan, the latter consisted simply of six hydrocoptic marzelvanes, so fitted to the ambifacient lunar vaneshaft that side fumbling was effectively prevented. The main winding was of the normal lotus-o-delta type placed in panendermic semiboloid solts in the stator, every seventh conductor being connected by a non-reversible termic pipe to the differential girdlespring on the 'up' end of the grammeter.

Forty-one manestically placed grouting brushes were arrranged to feed into the rotor slip stream a mixture of high S-value phenyhydrobenzamine and 5 percent reminative tetraiodohexamine. Both these liquids have specific pericosities given by p=2.4 Cn where n is the diathecial evolute of retrograde temperature phase disposition and C is the Chomondeley's annual grillage coefficient. Initially, n was measured with the aid of a metapolar pilfrometer, but up to the present date nothing has been found to equal the transcetental hopper dadoscope.

Electrical engineers will appreciate the difficulty of nubbing together a regurgitative purwell and a superaminative wennel-sprocket. Indeed, this proved to be a stumbling block to further development until, in 1943, it was found that the use of anhydrous nagling pins enabled a kyptonastic boiling shim to be tankered.

The early attempts to construct a sufficiently robust spiral decommutator failed largely because of lack of appreciation of the large quasi-pietic stresses in the gremlin studs; the latter were specially designed to hold the roffit bars to the spamshaft. When, however, it was discovered that wending could be prevented by the simple addition of teeth to socket, almost perfect running was secured.

The operating point is maintained as near as possible to the HF rem peak by constantly fromaging the bituminous spandrels. This is a distinct advance on the standard nivelsheave in that no drammock oil is required after the phase detractors have remissed.

Undoubtedly, the turboencabulator has now reached a very high level of technical development. It has been successfully used for operating nofer trunnions. In addition, whenever a barescent skor motion is required, it may be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocating dingle arm to reduce sinusoidal depleneration.

Video for explanation of this marvel

That is AWSOME!!! LOL!!

I needed that!

 

[Snorider]

Wow a lot in this thread, but just a question gt, are you kinda using the principles of the plane guys where they run lean of peak?

I have been following that stuff for awhile now and talked with them, and you do get more power, less fuel consumption and lower operating temps.

Just wondered if you kind of were also going including those same lines of theory in your quest?

 

[Scavenger]

GTFoxy:
As you claims are for a new combustion chamber design I feel we are beeing a bit sidetracked here but:

The momentary inflow into the crankcase just at TPO does skew the transfer flow if the transfers have staggered opening points. If they open at the same time the transfer flow is not skewed.

The distribution of the scavenge flow in the cylinder is not poor in my opinion, it takes the path it needs to in order to have a good performing motor.
However I can agree that to a certain extent the hemispherical combustion chamber shape is not doing the best work in allowing the scavenge flow to scavenge out the residual gases from the previous cycle from the combustion chamber itself, especially if the bowl is deep. Might it be the distribution of A/F and residual gases in the combustion chamber which you are refering to as poor?

Regarding the testing which you have conducted:
What displacement motor, what peak BMEP did it produce and at what rpm did it produce it. What BSFC did the motor reach at the peak BMEP rpm?

 

[gus bohne]

Still patiently waiting to here from one of the testers as to the results.

Or see some dyno derived data.

I find it very very hard to understand how this will not cause a complete redesign of the pipe, portime relationship..but..... the world was flat too.
AND turbos don't work on 2strokes..

Where's Wobbly ?????? LOL

Gus

 

[gtfoxy]

GTFoxy:
As you claims are for a new combustion chamber design I feel we are beeing a bit sidetracked here but:

The momentary inflow into the crankcase just at TPO does skew the transfer flow if the transfers have staggered opening points. If they open at the same time the transfer flow is not skewed.

The distribution of the scavenge flow in the cylinder is not poor in my opinion, it takes the path it needs to in order to have a good performing motor.
However I can agree that to a certain extent the hemispherical combustion chamber shape is not doing the best work in allowing the scavenge flow to scavenge out the residual gases from the previous cycle from the combustion chamber itself, especially if the bowl is deep. Might it be the distribution of A/F and residual gases in the combustion chamber which you are refering to as poor?

Regarding the testing which you have conducted:
What displacement motor, what peak BMEP did it produce and at what rpm did it produce it. What BSFC did the motor reach at the peak BMEP rpm?

Stagered, not staggered, try running it with out reeds and let me know how bad the reversion is...

Any chamber that allows the combusting mass to interact greatly with another combusting mass for too long is bad for energy conversion. Molecules pounding each other around, all at the same energy input, does not equal energy conversion... Every action... remember. What it does equal is energy loss from heat generation that can not be recovered.

To be honest supplying all the info you request is not possible. The design was developed at a time, about 20 yrs ago, when the individual responsible for its creation did not have the data available to him. It was simply built as a learning platform for a particular development excersize intended for a specific purpose. That purpose was to gather a good understanding of the needed changes to achieve specific repeatable energy output and the things that effected them. It was also the development of a new style carburetor system that was the real main focus of the testing. This design was simply discovered along that pathway just to be put in mothballs, until now, where I am dusting it off and taking a fresh look at it with a specific purpose for its capabilities. The creator understands this and has helped me adapt it so in essence we are co-creators as it pertains to this application.

Keep in mind that this ideal observation in energy conversion was simply to take it and adapt it to 4-strokes where he sees the same figures and BSFC's as I am about to discuss.

Now, since I can not give you exact figures on BMEP and BSFC, which the original creator does not go souly by, he has since used the exact "fuel in/ power output" scenarios as with what he deals with today on a regular basis(he was designing a Carb at the time so trust me, he knows the fuel mass and energy ratios), he has calculated what it would have been, the BSFC that is.

Here are the Specs, it was a 80cc Yammy, 28mm carb, with 21:1 Compression. It made right at 50HP at 21,000RPM and it has been calculated as to have been running at a .3-.28 BSFC. The engine was whisper quiet, registered 350deg exhaust gas temps as measured at the head and had constant ring failures and the pipe was no where near optimal for this engine dynamic.. Like I said, it would simply self destruct from the cylinder pressures.

Does that give you any idea of what we are dealing with in refference to energy conversion on low octane fuel?

Any more questions or can we get back to the intake reversion wave discussion, because it is very relevant, and how it can be eliminated?