Fix Kits!

[RKT]

The gussets did not effect performance., and because I want MAXIMUM dependability.
If there wasn't a rod ratio problem Polaris would have NEVER re-tooled a complete new cylinder & crankcase for 2013. NEVER !

You can mark my work the 2013 motors will last WAY longer then the 08,09,10,11,12 motors with the exact same piston.

Its plain and simple..... its not a piston problem. ( Pistons are a patch )

To much clearance with a short rod. ( Bad combination. )

Dan does what Dan does.

RKT does what he does.

The end.

Dan

Just to Clarify..

Polaris did not offset the cylinder.. it is in the SAME location as before with respect to the rod and bore.. ALL they did is thicken the intake lower skirt... To accomodate this they, needed to remachine the case as well... But no change has been made in any other area..
Cylinder and case are unchanged except to allow for the thicker skirt fitting..
I have both engines on the bench and have the proper measuring equipment to determine this...
Not trying to be rude.. just sayin' and correcting misinformation.

Its plain and simple..... its not a piston problem. ( Pistons are a patch )

Dan, I am confused,, below in your post, you tell about how th episton is too loose and should be changed, yet, above, you tell us that there is no problem with the piston??? This is contradicting.. can you please clear it up??

Defending Polaris alittle.

Just Maybe some of the Polaris CFI4 & CFI 2 Motor problems are misunderstood. ??


The factory spec for all Polaris all CFI 800 motors - .004 to .0055 Cylinder to piston clearance to a brand new piston.

I have 2 brand new 2013 cylinders on the bench and both measure .0063 piston to cylinder clearance

After the break in period is done the piston wil measure at least -.001 to .0015 smaller.

That puts your brand spanking new sled @ .0073 to .0078 cylinder to piston clearance.

Polaris service Limit MAXIMUM cylinder to wall clearance is .009 - Its nothing to see .012 to .015 piston cylinder clearance in motors that have been sent in for service.

Now what that means is this - Between 500 to 1000 miles...... close to 100%...... and I mean damn close to 100% of all Polaris small block motors
will be up to or past .009 cylinder to piston clearance in the first year of ownership.

And Mountain motors that get used alot will have .010 to .015 thousand clearance by the end of the second year. ( In other words completely woren out ) As close to junk as you can get at this point.

The sad facts are this - POlaris almost HAS to have them set up this way or some MORON will cold seize them.


All this being said - What am I saying ???

EVERY SMALL BLOCK 800 Needs new pistons after the first year of riding if you rode over 500 miles.

And if you deside NOT to replate and properly have a shop size your cylinder correctly then your samll block needs NEW pistons EVERY SEASON!! PEROID.

A completely stock properly rebuild Polaris Small block will out perform and fully modded STAGE 2,4,6,8 10 what ever you want to call it that is over the service limit...........The main reason people think they need fuel controls is because the motors piston to cylinder clearace is over the limitand is getting worse because the problem compounds itself.

The more clearance it has the harder they slap and the more they destroy themsleves.


If you feel the power start to go away on a Polaris 800 Small Block, or you can't pull your clutch weights lighter weights or MOD Parts are not the correct path to take.

Fix the cylinder to piston clearance first...... then if you feel you still want to buy aftermarket parts they will actually work better.

Dan, this is what we do and then we add a little something extra with a better overal design... So, it does seem that the piston is the problem...


Dan

 

[theshadowrider]

Dan,

Just curiuos why you are against a forged piston, and I am speaking generally? I understand you and RKT have two different solutions, I am just curious if your dislike for forged pistons come from the steel sleeve cylinder days?

 

[mntmaster]

After dealing with Dan and trying his product all I can do as laugh at threads like this. I seriously think he could beat most mod sleds with just his clutch kit, no motor work.

Dan, your a pleasure to business with. Thanks for all the help bailing me out from everyone elses crap.

 

[Lefty Jim]

I would be interested in purchasing a 2014 sled. Do you think or know of any improvements from Polaris or should I wait until 2015, maybe they will have a new engine. Like everyone else between a rock and hard place, still have two years of warranty left. Do you make the improvements now (lose warranty) or say screw run out the warrenty. I have had no problems yet but dont like what I hear.

 

[0neoldfart]

FWIW...

I have never run Indy Dan's stuff because I was never on Polaris, although my wife has one now (bear with me, I'm going somewhere with this), but have run numerous RK Tek products in the past with good sucess. As a liscenced mechanic, I would not be scared to have work done by either vendor - both are knowledgeable. For those asking "How long will my motor last?" there are far too many variables involved to arrive at a specific mileage number - riding habits and maintenance (or lack therof) can screw with any design. In my opinion, there are several ways to build reliable engines, and there are ways to build powerful engines, but there will always be a trade off especially when starting with a flawed design and poor manufacturing tolerances. I'm a firm believer in the statement "Bad news beats you home". What I mean by that is neither IndyDan nor RKT would have remained in business this long if they produced / sold junk. I suspect most customer complaints with the aftermarket are caused by the end installer - I know I have "reinstalled" several torsional kits on the mountain for folks to simply didn't read the instructions (do it yourselfer's), or didn't realize the difference between a torsional clutch vs. a compression style secondary, and perhaps bought them through a 3rd party vendor who ordered what "they" thought the customer would want...
There is more then one way to skin a cat. In this particular case there are two different approaches, both are working, one is less $$$, one has a warranty. Pick your poison - I suspect you as the consumer will be happy with either...

 

[bigchevrolet]

Basic logic

Just to Clarify..

Polaris did not offset the cylinder.. it is in the SAME location as before with respect to the rod and bore.. ALL they did is thicken the intake lower skirt... To accomodate this they, needed to remachine the case as well... But no change has been made in any other area..
Cylinder and case are unchanged except to allow for the thicker skirt fitting..
I have both engines on the bench and have the proper measuring equipment to determine this...
Not trying to be rude.. just sayin' and correcting misinformation.

Its plain and simple..... its not a piston problem. ( Pistons are a patch )

Dan, I am confused,, below in your post, you tell about how th episton is too loose and should be changed, yet, above, you tell us that there is no problem with the piston??? This is contradicting.. can you please clear it up??

Dans post is very clear and should be easily understood to any reasonably well adjusted individual. I guess somethings have to be dumbed down in order for certain parties to be able to see the actual point being conveyed instead of being blinded by the opportunity to nitpick and play with the wording in order to try to call someone out and make them look like there contradicting themselves.
Dan clearly said the pistons arent the problem.
Dan clearly said the pistons should be changed. If one actually takes a moment and thinks about this and continues to read on they hopefully can figure out that the pistons only need to be replaced if the cylinder is not corrected. Its pretty clear plain and simple...no fixy the cylinder and continue to buy pistons...fixy the cylinder and no more buying pistons....I aint no rocketoligist or astroscientificalphysicist but i can figure this out. This may be a poor corny analogy but lets try it since its the same concept. If your feet(piston) get sore in a certain pair of shoes or boots(cylinder) or whetever have you will probably not go out and start shopping for some new feet, you will probably start shopping for some proper fitting footwear.


Lets recap this now.
ID says if you run a stock piston in a stock cylinder the tolerances will become to great at some point in time due to the hammering effect created by slop. This is when new pistons are needed. If the slop is taken care of right away then the stock pistons will fare just fine and not need to be replaced. This may have deviated a little bit fomr the subject but maybe it will help point out how ridiculous it is to nit pick and manipulate comments to a point of having a new meaning.....

 

[dragonfire]

I have never run Indy Dan's stuff because I was never on Polaris, although my wife has one now (bear with me, I'm going somewhere with this), but have run numerous RK Tek products in the past with good sucess. As a liscenced mechanic, I would not be scared to have work done by either vendor - both are knowledgeable. For those asking "How long will my motor last?" there are far too many variables involved to arrive at a specific mileage number - riding habits and maintenance (or lack therof) can screw with any design. In my opinion, there are several ways to build reliable engines, and there are ways to build powerful engines, but there will always be a trade off especially when starting with a flawed design and poor manufacturing tolerances. I'm a firm believer in the statement "Bad news beats you home". What I mean by that is neither IndyDan nor RKT would have remained in business this long if they produced / sold junk. I suspect most customer complaints with the aftermarket are caused by the end installer - I know I have "reinstalled" several torsional kits on the mountain for folks to simply didn't read the instructions (do it yourselfer's), or didn't realize the difference between a torsional clutch vs. a compression style secondary, and perhaps bought them through a 3rd party vendor who ordered what "they" thought the customer would want...
There is more then one way to skin a cat. In this particular case there are two different approaches, both are working, one is less $$$, one has a warranty. Pick your poison - I suspect you as the consumer will be happy with either...

Well spoken .GREAT POST

 

[scott t]

Dans post is very clear and should be easily understood to any reasonably well adjusted individual. I guess somethings have to be dumbed down in order for certain parties to be able to see the actual point being conveyed instead of being blinded by the opportunity to nitpick and play with the wording in order to try to call someone out and make them look like there contradicting themselves.
Dan clearly said the pistons arent the problem.
Dan clearly said the pistons should be changed. If one actually takes a moment and thinks about this and continues to read on they hopefully can figure out that the pistons only need to be replaced if the cylinder is not corrected. Its pretty clear plain and simple...no fixy the cylinder and continue to buy pistons...fixy the cylinder and no more buying pistons....I aint no rocketoligist or astroscientificalphysicist but i can figure this out. This may be a poor corny analogy but lets try it since its the same concept. If your feet(piston) get sore in a certain pair of shoes or boots(cylinder) or whetever have you will probably not go out and start shopping for some new feet, you will probably start shopping for some proper fitting footwear.


Lets recap this now.
ID says if you run a stock piston in a stock cylinder the tolerances will become to great at some point in time due to the hammering effect created by slop. This is when new pistons are needed. If the slop is taken care of right away then the stock pistons will fare just fine and not need to be replaced. This may have deviated a little bit fomr the subject but maybe it will help point out how ridiculous it is to nit pick and manipulate comments to a point of having a new meaning.....

Gosh thanks for clearing this up! You know how hard its been trying to find new feet!!! lol. Im sure if you ran any piston with the same out of spec clearance issue in this engine the result would be the same. Time will tell on these piston fix kits to see if they hold up well. I kinda like the idea of indy's warranty though. Its more money but if you figure in extending warranty a year or so and subtract that it seems pretty reasonable with 3 more years of warranty.

 

[RKT]

Dans post is very clear and should be easily understood to any reasonably well adjusted individual. I guess somethings have to be dumbed down in order for certain parties to be able to see the actual point being conveyed instead of being blinded by the opportunity to nitpick and play with the wording in order to try to call someone out and make them look like there contradicting themselves.
Dan clearly said the pistons arent the problem.
Dan clearly said the pistons should be changed. If one actually takes a moment and thinks about this and continues to read on they hopefully can figure out that the pistons only need to be replaced if the cylinder is not corrected. Its pretty clear plain and simple...no fixy the cylinder and continue to buy pistons...fixy the cylinder and no more buying pistons....I aint no rocketoligist or astroscientificalphysicist but i can figure this out. This may be a poor corny analogy but lets try it since its the same concept. If your feet(piston) get sore in a certain pair of shoes or boots(cylinder) or whetever have you will probably not go out and start shopping for some new feet, you will probably start shopping for some proper fitting footwear.


Lets recap this now.
ID says if you run a stock piston in a stock cylinder the tolerances will become to great at some point in time due to the hammering effect created by slop. This is when new pistons are needed. If the slop is taken care of right away then the stock pistons will fare just fine and not need to be replaced. This may have deviated a little bit fomr the subject but maybe it will help point out how ridiculous it is to nit pick and manipulate comments to a point of having a new meaning.....

You know with all due respect... Making personal dorrogatory comments (like Dan always does and now you) is simply uncalled for.. If you would like to get a point across, it is ALWAYS possible to do this without making personal attacks..

So, in response to your disresepctful post.. I will respond respectfully with some hard data.

1 )The Pro cylinders measure within .0005" of each other and are NOT tapered.. We have measured TONS of these.. They fall WELL in to spec and holding a .0005" tolerance is very acceptable.

The idea that the Pro cylinders are tapered and have many different "sizes" is simply false and tryinig to convince "others" that this is true is simply unwarranted and unfair to the people.

So, taking out the misconception that the cylinders are sized sporatically and tapered.. that leaves us with the piston.

2) So given the the above, the problem IS the piston!

It MAY be true, that the pistons have some quality control issues with sizing and that some are not dimensioned correctly leaving an undesired piston to cylinder wall clearance... Which again, leads back to the problem being the piston...

So, A SOLUTION...... we have developed a piston, based on the MANY cylinders we have measured, that WILL be in spec and the unique design and manufacturing process will allow it to hold this tolerance even after 2000 miles.. we have inspected the piston after running and found it ot hold its dimensions very well..

Now for a forged piston being a bad idea... ANY piston that is not designed and/or manufactured correctly can and will be a bad piston.. This is why we take the utmost care in assuring that the pistons we offer (100% our design) meet the necessary criteria to be a long lasting piston..

We spent several YEARS and alot of $$$ in the R&D development.. refining the process and the design.

As for forged quality over cast.. They are both great when designed and manufactured correctly.. But here are a few facts

1) ALL NASCAR engines use a forged piston
2) ALL Top Fuel Dragsters use a forged piston
3) ALL Motocross (factory level) engines use a forged piston

These are only a few... there are more.. but IF the cast piston was so superior, then the above entities would be using them.

Why do snowmobile and motorcycle manufactures supply their engine with a cast piston?? Simple.. They are cheaper to manufacture and easier to mass produce.. This keeps the cost of the already outrageous vehicle a tad lower and allows the OEMs to have adequate stock on hand.

I hope this helps in some of the confusion... I am really just trying to get the real information out there and not the "false" info...

 

[jeepin270]

You know with all due respect... Making personal dorrogatory comments (like Dan always does and now you) is simply uncalled for.. If you would like to get a point across, it is ALWAYS possible to do this without making personal attacks..

So, in response to your disresepctful post.. I will respond respectfully with some hard data.

1 )The Pro cylinders measure within .0005" of each other and are NOT tapered.. We have measured TONS of these.. They fall WELL in to spec and holding a .0005" tolerance is very acceptable.

The idea that the Pro cylinders are tapered and have many different "sizes" is simply false and tryinig to convince "others" that this is true is simply unwarranted and unfair to the people.

So, taking out the misconception that the cylinders are sized sporatically and tapered.. that leaves us with the piston.

2) So given the the above, the problem IS the piston!

It MAY be true, that the pistons have some quality control issues with sizing and that some are not dimensioned correctly leaving an undesired piston to cylinder wall clearance... Which again, leads back to the problem being the piston...

So, A SOLUTION...... we have developed a piston, based on the MANY cylinders we have measured, that WILL be in spec and the unique design and manufacturing process will allow it to hold this tolerance even after 2000 miles.. we have inspected the piston after running and found it ot hold its dimensions very well..

Now for a forged piston being a bad idea... ANY piston that is not designed and/or manufactured correctly can and will be a bad piston.. This is why we take the utmost care in assuring that the pistons we offer (100% our design) meet the necessary criteria to be a long lasting piston..

We spent several YEARS and alot of $$$ in the R&D development.. refining the process and the design.

As for forged quality over cast.. They are both great when designed and manufactured correctly.. But here are a few facts

1) ALL NASCAR engines use a forged piston
2) ALL Top Fuel Dragsters use a forged piston
3) ALL Motocross (factory level) engines use a forged piston

These are only a few... there are more.. but IF the cast piston was so superior, then the above entities would be using them.

Why do snowmobile and motorcycle manufactures supply their engine with a cast piston?? Simple.. They are cheaper to manufacture and easier to mass produce.. This keeps the cost of the already outrageous vehicle a tad lower and allows the OEMs to have adequate stock on hand.

I hope this helps in some of the confusion... I am really just trying to get the real information out there and not the "false" info...

Kelsey, do plan on offering some kinda warranty?

 

[assault11]

You know with all due respect... Making personal dorrogatory comments (like Dan always does and now you) is simply uncalled for.. If you would like to get a point across, it is ALWAYS possible to do this without making personal attacks..

So, in response to your disresepctful post.. I will respond respectfully with some hard data.

1 )The Pro cylinders measure within .0005" of each other and are NOT tapered.. We have measured TONS of these.. They fall WELL in to spec and holding a .0005" tolerance is very acceptable.

The idea that the Pro cylinders are tapered and have many different "sizes" is simply false and tryinig to convince "others" that this is true is simply unwarranted and unfair to the people.

So, taking out the misconception that the cylinders are sized sporatically and tapered.. that leaves us with the piston.

2) So given the the above, the problem IS the piston!

It MAY be true, that the pistons have some quality control issues with sizing and that some are not dimensioned correctly leaving an undesired piston to cylinder wall clearance... Which again, leads back to the problem being the piston...

So, A SOLUTION...... we have developed a piston, based on the MANY cylinders we have measured, that WILL be in spec and the unique design and manufacturing process will allow it to hold this tolerance even after 2000 miles.. we have inspected the piston after running and found it ot hold its dimensions very well..

Now for a forged piston being a bad idea... ANY piston that is not designed and/or manufactured correctly can and will be a bad piston.. This is why we take the utmost care in assuring that the pistons we offer (100% our design) meet the necessary criteria to be a long lasting piston..

We spent several YEARS and alot of $$$ in the R&D development.. refining the process and the design.

As for forged quality over cast.. They are both great when designed and manufactured correctly.. But here are a few facts

1) ALL NASCAR engines use a forged piston
2) ALL Top Fuel Dragsters use a forged piston
3) ALL Motocross (factory level) engines use a forged piston

These are only a few... there are more.. but IF the cast piston was so superior, then the above entities would be using them.

Why do snowmobile and motorcycle manufactures supply their engine with a cast piston?? Simple.. They are cheaper to manufacture and easier to mass produce.. This keeps the cost of the already outrageous vehicle a tad lower and allows the OEMs to have adequate stock on hand.

I hope this helps in some of the confusion... I am really just trying to get the real information out there and not the "false" info...

If the problem was the just the piston don't you think Polaris would've changed it by now? They put a whole lot more money into design and r&d than you can

 

[scott t]

I have never run Indy Dan's stuff because I was never on Polaris, although my wife has one now (bear with me, I'm going somewhere with this), but have run numerous RK Tek products in the past with good sucess. As a liscenced mechanic, I would not be scared to have work done by either vendor - both are knowledgeable. For those asking "How long will my motor last?" there are far too many variables involved to arrive at a specific mileage number - riding habits and maintenance (or lack therof) can screw with any design. In my opinion, there are several ways to build reliable engines, and there are ways to build powerful engines, but there will always be a trade off especially when starting with a flawed design and poor manufacturing tolerances. I'm a firm believer in the statement "Bad news beats you home". What I mean by that is neither IndyDan nor RKT would have remained in business this long if they produced / sold junk. I suspect most customer complaints with the aftermarket are caused by the end installer - I know I have "reinstalled" several torsional kits on the mountain for folks to simply didn't read the instructions (do it yourselfer's), or didn't realize the difference between a torsional clutch vs. a compression style secondary, and perhaps bought them through a 3rd party vendor who ordered what "they" thought the customer would want...
There is more then one way to skin a cat. In this particular case there are two different approaches, both are working, one is less $$$, one has a warranty. Pick your poison - I suspect you as the consumer will be happy with either...

Good post. Looks like both ways of going about extending engine life seem to be working. There should only be one way to skin a cat though, that way it would be easier to decide!!

 

[bootz1981]

i got a question. your(rk tek) pistons are forged. supposedly the best pistons out there. Indy dans are not(cast). if pistons are the problem like you (rk tek) says how are indy dans motors runin for so long and strong on sh!tty pistons. i dont know dans or rk teks work personally, just a question i came up with from reading the posts

 

[RKT]

If the problem was the just the piston don't you think Polaris would've changed it by now? They put a whole lot more money into design and r&d than you can

Good question..

680 Ultra.. polaris had a major engine problem.. how did they address it?? Discontinued the sled after 1 season

900 Polaris.. Another engine issue.. how did polsris address it? Discontinued the the sled after 2 seasons

800 Dragon.. Engine issues as well.. Polaris bombarded the consumer with updates that included, pistons, injectors, heads and more... in 2010 they changed the cylinder to no avai.. Final solution.... redesign the engine and injector system and offer it in a a new chassis for 2011.

2011 Pro.. Injector, crank and coil issues..Polaris offered updates
2012 Pro. Polaris puts out a percentage of the engines with a crank from another manufacturer.. and a percentage with the 2011 crank installed. They kept this hidden fromn the consumer so only they knew who had which crank.

2013 Pro, Polaris changes crank to another manufacturer and thickens up the intake cylinder skirts...makes some chassis/drive shaft changes that result in immediate failure (R&D? done there???)

RK Tek determines the real cause behind the drive shaft failures and offers and very affordable solution to all consumers..

Polaris, initially, denies there is a drive shaft issue YET, purchases an RK Tek "fix" to test . They very quickly come up with the EXACT SAME solution to the issue that was discovered by RK Tek.. (who did the R&D here??) and Polaris offers it to the consumers and "THEIR FIX"

So, who knows why Polaris does what they do ?

All I KNOW is that the OEM piston is substandard, will not hold its shape and will usually fail within 1800 miles.. We took notice of this and have offered an alternative piston that has PROVEN to hold up and near eliminate the failures that are present with the OEM Piston...

 

[Allterrain]

1 )The Pro cylinders measure within .0005" of each other and are NOT tapered.. We have measured TONS of these.. They fall WELL in to spec and holding a .0005" tolerance is very acceptable.

The idea that the Pro cylinders are tapered and have many different "sizes" is simply false and tryinig to convince "others" that this is true is simply unwarranted and unfair to the people.

So, taking out the misconception that the cylinders are sized sporatically and tapered.. that leaves us with the piston.

I don't mean to speak for Indy Dan in any way, but my take on his fix to these engines is that he wants to use the stock polaris pistons, which only come in one size as far as I know. This means to tighten up the clearances you must make the cylinder smaller, which is what he's doing as far as I can tell. Longer rods just add reliability to an already good fix is what I get out of it.

 

[mountainhorse]

WOW.... That is all I have to say here...




.

 

[Powderforlife907]

All I know is I am going with indydans LR after my warranty is up... I don't think you could pay me to run a rtk kit after reading all of Kelsey's responses on here.

 

[SXViper]

I think if we edit out all the keyboard jockies here we've got some really good comparisons between to good products. What's better? To each his own.

 

[samiams2]

All I know is I am going with indydans LR after my warranty is up... I don't think you could pay me to run a rtk kit after reading all of Kelsey's responses on here.

Weird...I was gonna say the opposite.

 

[snowmobiler]

WOW.... That is all I have to say here...




.

LOL.