Fix Kits!

[RKT]

I would like to ask a few questions that I have asked several times before and have not yet received any answers..

Anybody who is in the "know" can answer..

1) Why does this engine NEED a long rod conversion? The Cat and Doo engines have a LESS favorable Rod/Ratio than the Polaris and have no issues. So why is the Polaris Rod/Ratio "out to lunch" and the Cat and DOO are not?

People please do NOT turn this into something that it is not.. These are SIMPLE questions that should be asked by ANYBODY who is interested in a Long Rod conversion....

 

[jeepin270]

Why don't you call Dan and ask him for yourself? I did it because there is a 3 yr warranty and Dans reputation speaks for itself.

 

[63nova]

Offset cylinder

Dan and Kelsey, both of you have done a lot of measurements, but I'm not sure either of you has it figured out yet. Here's an idea to try. (I would do this myself on my Bridgeport, but I'm too lazy to pull the cylinder out of my sled).

Several people have said that the skirt is thicker on the side with the port cut-out than the other. Maybe Polaris does this by turning the OD of the skirt offset from the bore (so that only the skirt is offset from the crank centerline, not the bore). Here's how I would check it:

Center your rotary table under the mill spindle. Place the cylinder skirt-up on the table and dial the bore into X=0 and Y=0. As you rotate the cylinder 360 deg with the rotary table, your dial indicator on the bore will read a basically zero. Now move your indicator so that it picks up the outside of the skirt, then rotate 360 deg again. I bet you will find that it is off center (offset) from the bore. The offset distance should equal the difference in thickness between the two sides of the skirt.

Anybody willing to give this a try? Post a video if you do.

 

[RKT]

Dan and Kelsey, both of you have done a lot of measurements, but I'm not sure either of you has it figured out yet. Here's an idea to try. (I would do this myself on my Bridgeport, but I'm too lazy to pull the cylinder out of my sled).

Several people have said that the skirt is thicker on the side with the port cut-out than the other. Maybe Polaris does this by turning the OD of the skirt offset from the bore (so that only the skirt is offset from the crank centerline, not the bore). Here's how I would check it:

Center your rotary table under the mill spindle. Place the cylinder skirt-up on the table and dial the bore into X=0 and Y=0. As you rotate the cylinder 360 deg with the rotary table, your dial indicator on the bore will read a basically zero. Now move your indicator so that it picks up the outside of the skirt, then rotate 360 deg again. I bet you will find that it is off center (offset) from the bore. The offset distance should equal the difference in thickness between the two sides of the skirt.

Anybody willing to give this a try? Post a video if you do.

63.. Thanks for the suggestion.. but the cylinder is 100% on center (as ANY engine design SHOULD BE) I have measured ALL over the cylinders and cases. and the video I posted up show clearly that the center of the bore is on center with the center of the crank.. Where the OD of the skirt falls in at is not relevant to the crank and bore centerline... But all good info regardless

Jeepin.. I have asked DAN MANY times... no response... I KNOW where his rods are made.. You guys should also before you buy them...

AGAIN.. ANYBODY considering ANY engine modification should ALWAYS ASK ALL the relative questions before purchasing ANY product! This is just plain common sense..

As for NEEDING a long rod conversion...
1)The lack of response from the "claimer"
2)The FACT that the other engines survive just fine with a lesser rod ratio
3) The FACT that one can run cylinders with THINNER skirts and NOT have skirt failure .
4)Engine design literature shows the current rod ratio to be WELL in the spec for engine design
5)Polaris has not changed the rod length in 6 years of building this engine... and they could do so VERY easy.
6)The FACT that there has not been 1 single cracked piston OR cylinder skirt on engines equipped with a properly designed piston.

the liste above...to name a few... tell you that a long rod is NOT needed.

 

[IQRIDR]

63.. Thanks for the suggestion.. but the cylinder is 100% on center (as ANY engine design SHOULD BE) I have measured ALL over the cylinders and cases. and the video I posted up show clearly that the center of the bore is on center with the center of the crank.. Where the OD of the skirt falls in at is not relevant to the crank and bore centerline... But all good info regardless

Jeepin.. I have asked DAN MANY times... no response... I KNOW where his rods are made.. You guys should also before you buy them...

AGAIN.. ANYBODY considering ANY engine modification should ALWAYS ASK ALL the relative questions before purchasing ANY product! This is just plain common sense..

As for NEEDING a long rod conversion...
1)The lack of response from the "claimer"
2)The FACT that the other engines survive just fine with a lesser rod ratio
3) The FACT that one can run cylinders with THINNER skirts and NOT have skirt failure .
4)Engine design literature shows the current rod ratio to be WELL in the spec for engine design
5)Polaris has not changed the rod length in 6 years of building this engine... and they could do so VERY easy.
6)The FACT that there has not been 1 single cracked piston OR cylinder skirt on engines equipped with a properly designed piston.

the liste above...to name a few... tell you that a long rod is NOT needed.

Oh Lord Kelsey, just drop it. No ones gives a **** that Dan's rods are made in China.

If your pistons and your work is so immaculate I wouldn't have a 10 pound paper weight disguised as your 858 BB in the back of my shop. You know, the one where the pistons were too tight and not only did it not run for very long but it shot a rod bearing trying to overcome your piston fitment issue.

No one is perfect, everyone has their trade secrets. My opinion? You both build nice stuff. You both know motors very well. Everyone makes a mistake here and there but how it is handled is what matters most.

I'm sure I speak for plenty of people when I say we get it, your drop it kit works great, your heads are nice, but your mouth gets really annoying sometimes. Stop trying to throw stones from your glass house, just sell your pistons and relax.

 

[Merlin]

tell you that a long rod is NOT needed.

Kelsey,


Whether it is needed may not be the point................

From your post one could easliy infer that you only sell products that are needed.....................

I'm certain that a cylinder head with a rather different combustion chamber design & higher compression is not actually needed but it may, indeed, make the engine work better.............

The question for you then is "Will a longer rod help to lessen the stress on the cylinder & piston?"

If the answer is yes, you may want to reconsider your tactic of "negative campaigning" & pay close attention to the materials of which your own house/business is built as IQRIDR has already stated???


Glen

 

[RKT]

Merlin..

You seem like a smart guy and your posts are always done in good taste and with respect..

So, I will ask you... WHERE is this negative campaigning you speak of?

ALL I have done is ASK a few simple questions and RESPECTFULLY disagreed with a notion from a crank expert, that the 2013 crank is offset from centerline..

This was ALL done with ZERO personal attacking just simple, to the point, comments that showed no disrespect towards anyone or shop.. (you can NOT say that for the other parties involved)..

If you see this as a negative campaign.. then so be it.. but PLEASE do not make simple question and comments something they are not (a negative campaign)..

BTW.. I am out of this thread...You guys get your wish....

Oh, I forgot to answer your question (highlighted below) Answer.. yes, but, in this case, at the expense of HP.

Kelsey,


Whether it is needed may not be the point................

From your post one could easliy infer that you only sell products that are needed.....................

I'm certain that a cylinder head with a rather different combustion chamber design & higher compression is not actually needed but it may, indeed, make the engine work better.............

The question for you then is "Will a longer rod help to lessen the stress on the cylinder & piston?"

If the answer is yes, you may want to reconsider your tactic of "negative campaigning" & pay close attention to the materials of which your own house/business is built as IQRIDR has already stated???


Glen

 

[Dartos]

Holy crap was that funny!!!

 

[GoBigParts]

I don't know the differences between the cat 800 and CFI Poo 800. I wonder though if a shop that build peformanace parts for both would know. I have heard maybe the wrist pin is placed in a different spot on the piston. Also I wonder if the cat 800 is not epa compliant because they have 4 strokes that are. They really don't need the 800 to be so they can just dump more fuel at it to help the pistons last longer. Just a couple of thoughts but I have not evidence of any of it.

 

[beamslayer]

IMO I did not see any negativity in Kelseys post he just is asking questions .
Lets not beat up on the vendors and try and stay on topic . As for me I did not see where you can measure center bore with a dial caliper but in Dan defense it was quick and easy .
I notice that some of the other engine builders stay off here that is too bad for us in the long run .
It really comes down to longer rods vs special built pistons MNTEK ,RKT and Northstar they run special pistons . Some use spacers and some use shorter pistons and than you have longer rods oem pistons and a spacer .
The only way to solve this is lets get them all together and compare and maybe set up a pie throwing booth and raise money for keeping are riding areas open.

 

[diamonddave]

I think someone must have been bullied alot growing up.

 

[Merlin]

Merlin..

You seem like a smart guy and your posts are always done in good taste and with respect..

So, I will ask you... WHERE is this negative campaigning you speak of?

ALL I have done is ASK a few simple questions and RESPECTFULLY disagreed with a notion from a crank expert, that the 2013 crank is offset from centerline..

This was ALL done with ZERO personal attacking just simple, to the point, comments that showed no disrespect towards anyone or shop.. (you can NOT say that for the other parties involved)..

If you see this as a negative campaign.. then so be it.. but PLEASE do not make simple question and comments something they are not (a negative campaign)..

BTW.. I am out of this thread...You guys get your wish....

Oh, I forgot to answer your question (highlighted below) Answer.. yes, but, in this case, at the expense of HP.

Kelsey,


To clarify, I have no issue at all with you expounding your views on the engine design/layout with respect to the cylinder offset & such...........No issue at all!


What I find to be a bit much is your apparent need to completely discredit the long rod modifcation at every opportunity you have..............You consistently ask the question, "Why is a long rod conversion needed?" It would be ridiculous to think that you would ask such a question because you don't know the answer!!! You are a smart guy too & darn well know what effect the longer rod has on the pistons & cylinders................

It's so blatantly obvious that you feel that only quality pistons installed with the correct amount of clearance are needed to make the CFI engine durable - We all get it!!! In fact I'm currently running a set of Wossners in my own sled so I guess, truth be told, I don't feel that the longer rod is really needed either............That being said I still understand the purpose of the longer rod & do acknowledge that it is not completely without merit..............From where I stand, Dan is an honest guy just like yourself..............He isn't "slinging a complete line of crap" to get people to "buy into" his products like so many others out there...........Nowhere on his E-bay page have I noticed a comment to the effect of: "The CFI engine is doomed due an inherent rod ratio design flaw & we have devised the only solution that will allow this engine to last more than 500 miles"...............He just simply offers a package of what he thinks will make the CFI engine durable..............



As other have said, you make a good product that works & Dan makes a good product that works!!! By all means, promote your product!!! Do not resort to discrediting the competition because you don't agree with their approach to "skinning the cat".............


Take it for what it's worth!



Glen

 

[milo303]

I will have over 1k on my stock 12 motor by seasons end and a freshen up is on my list of things to do.

Kind of torn as neither mod seems like a super standout but that warranty sure sounds good...

I'm surprised we havnt had much user reviews from people with some actual miles from both kits.

 

[GoBigParts]

Yeah, I have 2500 miles on my 2012 with the crappy stock pistons and cylinders that the fixit kits are trying to fix. So with the fix I should easily be able to see 4000-5000 miles one would think. Anyone with the new pistons or other fix have that kind of milage on one?

 

[milo303]

I'm about to cross 1,000 on my stock 12 tomorrow and all of this stuff online is making me want to void my aftermarket warranty for the fix...

I'd rather pay up vs getting stranded in the middle of know where and need a chopper to rescue the sled or myself

 

[Oregonsledder]

Don't sweat it. These guys need to create a problem, so peeps will buy their fix. There are WAY more of these engines going strong than this site would have you think.

 

[robadoodle]

pistons and skirts and offsets aside- is a drop in kit going to help the crank from taking a dump at 1100 miles (on a '12 800).

i'm sure the crank work would help but i aint got the financial backing to spring for that kinda upgrade (i hope nobody gets all but hurt with that comment).

as for comparing pistons to crank work- its called apples and oranges

 

[Lococoin]

Don't sweat it. These guys need to create a problem, so peeps will buy their fix. There are WAY more of these engines going strong than this site would have you think.

I agree with the last part as I am one of the ones still going strong. However, there is no reason why an engine should drop cylinder skirts destroying the bottom end, especially at low miles. If there wasn't some sort of issue Polaris wouldn't have increased the skirt thickness.

 

[TRS]

This is easy guys. Check the tune of your 800. Buy a leak down tester and check it. You maintain your clutches, belt, chain tension, track, or wax it every other ride. Why not do a leak down test every 200 miles. Not a compression check, a leak down test. Worried about your motor, do this simple 15 minute (total time) test. If you don't want to buy a good tester buy one from Harbor Freight for $41. Or make one yourself, there are DIY builds on the web. Keep a log of your test results per cylinder. Hopefully you will acknowledge when it is time for a rebuild before the "catastrophic failure". I don't care if it is stock or one of the available "fix kits" you need to do this.

 

[silberpro]

How is a leak down test going to tell you if a piston skirt is about to fail?