It isn't just gas......Just went to the grocery store......Loaf of Raison Bread $4.79.....good thing I am skinny!
Diesel nears the $5.00 dollar mark and most likely a way of life
- Thread starter graveler
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It's obvious you are not well versed in politics or macro economics. Let's just stipulate that and let me ask you then how you would like the government to intervene in the free market? Is that what you want? Politicians that artificially manipulate the free market? Please explain. IMO the government should stay out of the way of the free market period. We'll discuss why after you respond to the above questions.
The high fuel prices are really helping bush reach his goal: the elimination of the middle class.
I would vote republican if they did what they are supposed to do: make a smaller, more efficient government. They have done exactly the opposite. bush is the worst president ever and he has done the country and the world a great disservice, end of story.
I would vote republican if they did what they are supposed to do: make a smaller, more efficient government. They have done exactly the opposite. bush is the worst president ever and he has done the country and the world a great disservice, end of story.
Where do people come up with tripe like this? In detail explain why Bush or the wealthy in general want to eliminate the middle class? The level of misinformation and a general lack of understanding of basic economic fundamentals by the masses is astounding. Instead of I hate Bush or I hate the dems, explain in detail the policies and the means to the ends that are the basis for your opinions(misguided or not)
You're absolutely right about that. Most people either love or hate bush, but dont explain why.
I dont know what bush's goals are. I can tell you that the middle class will be the ones paying for the war. We can argue all day long if the war is worth it or not, but we can all agree we will have to pay for it. The people who pay the most in taxes are those that get a W2 from thier employers. The poor have the earned income credit and the rich generally have a less than cut and dry tax situation, so they are able to plan and structure transactions so they can maximize thier tax benefit. Those with the W2 can't do that. That leaves the middle class holding the bag.
I should have left that "goal" piece out, but I do believe the middle class is suffering because of bush's decisions.
Now you go from calling me an idiot to trying to have an intelligent conversation. Nice start.
Are you trying to tell me that the goverment doesn't manipulate the free market with just about every bill they pass? I guess you aren't very well versed in politics. Everything they do is to benefit one segment of the market or another. Bush= big oil- record oil prices. Cheney=Haliburton- nice expensive war. Their hands are all over the free market.
So tell me this Mr. freemarket. Are you all for the morgage nightmare brought on by the unregulated morgage industry? If the government had been regulating it we probably wouldn't have the meltdown we are having now. Speaking of free markets, I guess the government shouldn't have bailed out Bear Sterns- not that I'm for the government bailing out corporations that make bad decisions, but I think there would have been a bigger crash if they hadn't. How about Enron? They got the government out of the power business and look at the mess they made out of that. I think I've had enough of unregulated free market of the last 7 years. What percentage of americans are better off now? You can bash the Clinton years all you want but I made way more money in the market when he was president.
G
GF2
Member
Jay what is it your smoken CRACK
We all know who is trying to take away our constitutional rights as Americans, I would pay 10.00 a gallon rather than be some socialist *** kisser. If I can only ride once a year its better than nothing at all. So who are you voting for the Muslim or the Dyke,
Sorry to vent and make this political .
let's shut er down!
I know this sounds stupid but i think we should all stay home for about a week. DONT GO ANYWHERE, DONTSPEND ANY MONEY.Think of the lost tax revenue the government would lose.Think of the next quarterly reports on wall street.(stock losses downgrades.) We would be drowning in gas. When it starts hitting these rich SOB's in their wallets then maybe they'll start thinking about us!!! (man i'm slow at typing- 50 yo. excavating contractor.)
I know this sounds stupid but i think we should all stay home for about a week. DONT GO ANYWHERE, DONTSPEND ANY MONEY.Think of the lost tax revenue the government would lose.Think of the next quarterly reports on wall street.(stock losses downgrades.) We would be drowning in gas. When it starts hitting these rich SOB's in their wallets then maybe they'll start thinking about us!!! (man i'm slow at typing- 50 yo. excavating contractor.)
M
modsledr
Well-known member
It cracks me up how people want to give the president (dem or rep) so much credit for our economic condition. We've had a slowdown every 8-10 years or so for the last 50 years. Each has had a different stimulus, and each was followed by an economic upturn. Neither the slowdown OR the upturn were the result of our president (I guess you could blame both Carter and Reagan for the recession in the early 80's...it was their Fed Chairman, Volcker, who jacked interest rates up so high to end inflation...which worked).
You also cant blame the president for the greed of the markets. We saw it in 2000 with the dot com bust, and we're seeing it now with the mortgage mess (and some economists are predicting an oil bubble).
Market corrections are healthy. They weed out weak businesses. Look no further than the consolidation of lenders/banks. Those that made risky loans are going bankrupt. It's also greed that caused people to take out mortgages they couldn't afford. Out of this adversity, will come opportunity. The real estate market is correcting itself, just like the dot com markets corrected themselves 8 years ago.
my2c
modsledr
You also cant blame the president for the greed of the markets. We saw it in 2000 with the dot com bust, and we're seeing it now with the mortgage mess (and some economists are predicting an oil bubble).
Market corrections are healthy. They weed out weak businesses. Look no further than the consolidation of lenders/banks. Those that made risky loans are going bankrupt. It's also greed that caused people to take out mortgages they couldn't afford. Out of this adversity, will come opportunity. The real estate market is correcting itself, just like the dot com markets corrected themselves 8 years ago.
my2c
modsledr
Blame ??????
We did it to ourselves, 30 years ago we set out to free the Chinese people not by force but by introducing them to our culture. We sent McDonalds over first and then we sent our manufacturing jobs. The little bit of money they make working in the factories over there is a fortune compared to what they had before so naturally they (all 5 billion of them) all want cars now and GM and Ford and others are more than happy to supply them. " DEMAND" is driving up the price of oil and nothing else !!! All these underdeveloped countries are now discovering the automobile and they can afford to buy them because they are making everything that we buy at Walmart ! If we had just left them alone to ride their bicycles and rikshaws for eternity we would not be having this stupid discussion and Al Gore could afford to send his private jet to pick up each and every polar bear that is stranded on an iceberg somewhere !!! If you want to blame someone blame McDonalds and Walmart !!!!!!!!!! Please let this thread DIEEEEEEEE------------------------
We did it to ourselves, 30 years ago we set out to free the Chinese people not by force but by introducing them to our culture. We sent McDonalds over first and then we sent our manufacturing jobs. The little bit of money they make working in the factories over there is a fortune compared to what they had before so naturally they (all 5 billion of them) all want cars now and GM and Ford and others are more than happy to supply them. " DEMAND" is driving up the price of oil and nothing else !!! All these underdeveloped countries are now discovering the automobile and they can afford to buy them because they are making everything that we buy at Walmart ! If we had just left them alone to ride their bicycles and rikshaws for eternity we would not be having this stupid discussion and Al Gore could afford to send his private jet to pick up each and every polar bear that is stranded on an iceberg somewhere !!! If you want to blame someone blame McDonalds and Walmart !!!!!!!!!! Please let this thread DIEEEEEEEE------------------------
It took me a little bit to read this whole thread, but modseldr has got it down pat.
the whole stupid housing crisis is crap. greed took over buyers who were stupid and couldn't afford 3/8 of the house they bought, and the banks got greedy and were handing out the loans like they were tossing out candy in a parade.
Fuel is going nuts, and yes it has cut down on the things i do to go and play. As a farmer/rancher i hate to see it that high and hope we can do something to bring prices back down. as for using corn for fuel, it's not worth it for the gallons per acre it produces. but with everything else going up it is nice to see wheat/corn/barley ect. come up and finally start to make some money. esp when i can burn through 200 + gal a day in slow time. so naturally food is going to go up all over the place from livestock to the good ol grocery store.
Trying credit or discredit a president for the econ. is crap IMHO because if the president could really put a huge impact on it i would be calling everyone on here commrade.
And as for the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, there isn't very much truth to that for over......i can't remeber the exact numbers on it but it's like 70% of millioniers(sp) (too many's i think just dosen't look right) are first generation. Plus us middle class guys got to face the fact that when the rich don't play as much it's a trickle down effect to us. and not too many people are full time career workers from poor or middle class business owners.
and on a final note the world is not going to turn in to a big ball of fire and drown all the polar bears. gobal warming and cooling is something humans so far haven't made a single impact. and everyone should be glad gobal warming took place, other wise we'd still be in an ice age. so some common sense would be pretty sweet to see. i need to quit cause i could discuss politics and stupid gobal warming to no end esp right now.
the whole stupid housing crisis is crap. greed took over buyers who were stupid and couldn't afford 3/8 of the house they bought, and the banks got greedy and were handing out the loans like they were tossing out candy in a parade.
Fuel is going nuts, and yes it has cut down on the things i do to go and play. As a farmer/rancher i hate to see it that high and hope we can do something to bring prices back down. as for using corn for fuel, it's not worth it for the gallons per acre it produces. but with everything else going up it is nice to see wheat/corn/barley ect. come up and finally start to make some money. esp when i can burn through 200 + gal a day in slow time. so naturally food is going to go up all over the place from livestock to the good ol grocery store.
Trying credit or discredit a president for the econ. is crap IMHO because if the president could really put a huge impact on it i would be calling everyone on here commrade.
And as for the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, there isn't very much truth to that for over......i can't remeber the exact numbers on it but it's like 70% of millioniers(sp) (too many
's i think just dosen't look right) are first generation. Plus us middle class guys got to face the fact that when the rich don't play as much it's a trickle down effect to us. and not too many people are full time career workers from poor or middle class business owners.and on a final note the world is not going to turn in to a big ball of fire and drown all the polar bears. gobal warming and cooling is something humans so far haven't made a single impact. and everyone should be glad gobal warming took place, other wise we'd still be in an ice age. so some common sense would be pretty sweet to see. i need to quit cause i could discuss politics and stupid gobal warming to no end esp right now.
Idiot \Id"i*ot\ ([i^]d"[i^]*[o^]t), noun
An unlearned, ignorant, or simple person, as distinguished from the educated; an ignoramus. [Obs.]
By definition you are at least unlearned and ignorant.
You go from liberal talking point to liberal talking point followed by one fallacy after another. Bush is responsible for destroying the middle class and high fuel costs I believe you started with. How exactly did Bush force OPEC to cut production and raise crude prices and even more enlightening would be your explanation of how the wealthy benefit from the destruction of the middle class... quite the contrary actually but let's hear it in detail? The war is Cheney's deal to benefit Haliburton? Uh, there are dozens and dozens of contractors being paid via reconstruction contracts. Haliburton is far from the top. The war was not a bad idea at all. The US and for that matter the world economy has substantial interests in the middle east. Did we go to war for oil? Yes and we should have. The risk IMO is that we have gambled by not paying for the war as we go. It could be argued that taxes should not have been cut during wartime but then you risk further slowdown in the economy. In the end we can only guess if taxes should have not been lowered at the same time the budget is being overtaxed with the war expenditures. Deficits are not always a bad thing. Time will tell.
Regarding gov regulation of the free market, of course unbridled capitalism has it's dangers. But the dangers of over regulation far exceed those of under regulation. You inferred that I am bashing Clinton? Not at all but at the same time to state he is responsible for the upturn in the economy in the late 90s while ignoring some of the other realities is also a not very well thought out position either. Enron and WorldCom's creative accounting practices flourished under his administration as did the unreasonable market valuations for most of the dotcoms in the late 90s. The economy went into a downturn in 2002 because of the collapse of the markets due to the over valuations as well as the events surrounding 9/11 so was that Clinton's fault or Bush's fault or neither? The line between what political party is responsible for this upturn or this downturn is blurry at best. As modsledr stated, the economy is cyclical. Should the government regulated the mortgage industry further than they already do and would that have prevented the housing bust we are now under? I don't believe so. The housing market itself is cyclical and has been becoming overvalued for years. Ask people who lived in CA back in the early 90s how the cycle works. The real problem currently IMO is that people's greed and poor financial choices caused them to squeeze out every drop of equity they had and in some cases more equity than the house was worth. Is that government's fault? Should the rest of us now bail them and their poor choices out? Nope. I really don't care if my property loses value in the short term. My property taxes will decrease and the value will come back in time and will over inflate just as it always does before doing it again in another 10 years. I'm in it for the long term so it matters little to me. The point is anyone who lays blame for tough times at the feet of any one president is short sighted and probably doesn't know much of which he speaks. On whole conservatives want smaller gov and less regulation than liberals. Generally speaking economies do better under those conditions. Bush hasn't been much of a conservative so if you don't like him you sure as hell are not going to like a Democratic controlled congress with a Dem pres. To those who hate Bush, what is the alternative and how will it be better... in detail please?
Finally, if you don't like paying high fuel costs then drive less or buy a smaller car. There are several emerging alternative energy markets just waiting to spring up. Someday instead of bashing big oil you'll be bashing big solar and big wind energy companies. Of course they'll be owned by those evil republicans because we're busy right now planning on how to capitalize on those markets while you democrats are whining about big oil and how Bush is somehow responsible for you stubbing your toe this evening.
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No worries another year or so and it will be 2.50 a litre in Canada and we'll all be "hey u remember when gas was only 1.00 a litre, man those were the good ol days."
Must be nice to live in Venezuala where the government owns the oil company and keeps it cheap for their hard working citizens. anyone know if there is anywhere to go sleddin down there ?
Must be nice to live in Venezuala where the government owns the oil company and keeps it cheap for their hard working citizens. anyone know if there is anywhere to go sleddin down there ?
Privatize this, privatize that, privatize everything, it makes things better for everyone. Look where it has gotten us now, we are a bunch of fools.
Well, some of you are fools I would agree...
Venezuela has a per-capita Gross Domestic Product of $2978
US has a per-capita Gross Domestic Product of $41,415
Explain to me how paying $80cents/gal for fuel in Venezuela when you earn a couple thousand dollars a year if you're lucky and live in a shanty would be better than paying $4.00/gal in the US or Canada when you make 10-50 times that? Do you people actually think before you speak or in this case beat on your keyboards? I mean jimini cricket go take a macro economics 101 class at your local community college or something. A mind is a powerful thing to waste and there are many being wasted lol.
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So tell me this Mr. freemarket. Are you all for the morgage nightmare brought on by the unregulated morgage industry? If the government had been regulating it we probably wouldn't have the meltdown we are having now.-
No if we as a group hadn't been so damn stupid we wouldn't have that mess.
I think I've had enough of unregulated free market of the last 7 years
Well homey you can always go live in Cuba or China.
Modsledder well put.
And for those who say the Republicans are screwing the middle class, I'm no genius, but I got a feeling the middle class is always gonna pay. Who's gonna pay for Obama and Hilarys ideas?
A mind is a powerful thing to waste and there are many being wasted lol.-some of the truest words in this whole thread!
No if we as a group hadn't been so damn stupid we wouldn't have that mess.
I think I've had enough of unregulated free market of the last 7 years
Well homey you can always go live in Cuba or China.
Modsledder well put.
And for those who say the Republicans are screwing the middle class, I'm no genius, but I got a feeling the middle class is always gonna pay. Who's gonna pay for Obama and Hilarys ideas?
A mind is a powerful thing to waste and there are many being wasted lol.-some of the truest words in this whole thread!
I would actually make more $$$ doing the same job in Venezuala that I do in Canada. If your so smart tell me why that is, cus I wasted my mind and can't seem to figure that one out for myself.
Don't be a douche bag!
Don't be a douche bag!
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