Detroit Bailout.......good?.....bad?.......

[Ollie]

It's called chapter 11.
Lets the company restructure and they can tell the unions to get real or get out.
I heard as has been stated above.
80 a hour per hour for american workers.
44 for non-american workers.

If you can't compete, you can't sell cars. Image what the cost of an american vehicle would be if the cost per hour was 44 in stead of 80.

The fun part is, the unions backed the dems BIG time. If the dems don't bail out the unions (and lets face it, this would be a bail out of the unions, not the auto industry), the unions are going to be PIZZED. THis could get funny.

 

[maluchm]

The CEO's of the big three go home empty handed! Denied the 25 Billion.

 

[Ollie]

The CEO's of the big three go home empty handed! Denied the 25 Billion.

Yep, had to take their little tin begging cups, put em in the pocket of the 10k power suit, jump on their 30mil private jets and go home.

Now lets see if they actually file chapter 11 or if they were bluffing.

 

[Abominable]

The CEO's of the big three go home empty handed! Denied the 25 Billion.

And their stock plunges: F $1.15 GM $2.24

 

[maluchm]

Proposed deal being announced today at 2:30.

 

[JET FUEL]

The big three will not fail if they go into chapter 11. they will restructure and tell the unions to pack sand. If they take a bail out it will be at their own demise.
A bail out will give congress control to tell the big three what they can build, the congress controlled by democrats, democrats being controlled by environmentalists will equal cars designed by environmentalists that will equal cars that nobody wants.

The bail out is not for the big three IT IS FOR THE UAW.

 

[ruffryder]

I got a question.... that 70-80 hr cost of gm for each labor employee.... Is that the total cost in compensation (salary and benefits) for all labor workers divided by the amount of workers?

The issue I have is that the workers of today are paying for the retirement of the workers of the past. If there are more past workers in retirement then currently working, the total cost due to the company is quite high, and looks extremely high when put on a per worker bases.

If they had 100 workers in the 70-80's and now have only 50, then those 50 are costing the company twice as much as in retirement as they did 20-30 years ago.

Do you guys think this has an effect? Is this even a valid point? Seems to me they have been downsizing and outsourcing more and more, and the core workers size has been reduced.

It almost sounds to me like someone is playing with numbers to make it seem like the UAW are making completely bank! I don't doubt they get paid well, but not the crazy rates that we have been provided with...

 

[Gaz]

I got a question.... that 70-80 hr cost of gm for each labor employee.... Is that the total cost in compensation (salary and benefits) for all labor workers divided by the amount of workers?

I doubt it'll even be that high, but if it's anywhere even close to that, it's beyond crazy.

Think again: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm2135.cfm

Granted, I found this on the internet but it looks like it cites very trustworthy and reputable references (US Department of Labor , Chrysler Labor, and UAW themselves). This article says:

Average wage during 2006 for the little 3 was $73.21 / hour including all wages and benefits. By way of comparison the average wage during 2006 for the Japs was $44.17 / hour including all wages and benefits. Both of these are grossly higher than the average wages in any given private sector firm. It seems that most of the costs included in these wages are health care benefits (this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone). Here is a quote from the article: "...UAW workers and retirees have some of the most comprehensive and least expensive health care in America."

I think the japanese have both universal health care and universal retirements. Two extremely large costs to businesses... Something to think about..

Another quote from the article: "...GM has three times as many retirees as active workers, and health care costs for both groups cost the company $4.6 billion in 2007. The UAW's lavish health benefits added $1,200 to the cost of each vehicle produced in the United States. The Japanese automakers, by contrast, provide standard health benefits to their American employees. Consequently, health care for active workers cost Toyota $215 per vehicle in 2006."

I'm sure that the Jap's health care benefits and retirement packages are not quite what the little 3 currently have, but I'm sure that it's pretty damn competitive. Honestly, who on this forum has health care and retirement packages similar to what the little 3 have right now? I'd bet that there are only 1 or 2 and those guys / gals probably work for the UAW.

Also, not sure if any of you guys noticed this today but GMAC Financial Services (READ - 51% owned by Cerberus Capital which also owns a large share of Chrysler) petitioned the feds today to become a bank holding company in order to be included in the $700B that taxpayers are already dumping into the economy. But they promised it would be strictly for GMAC and not pass any along to GM. Sure... If they are granted approval by the federal government, they will become the 24th bank that the US Treasury has already invested $158.5B across. All because they can't manufacture vehicles that will sell to the US consumer.

US demand for new vehicles in 2008 was 16 million and the demand for 2009 is expected to be 12 million; a decrease of 25% year over year. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that dumping money into the little 3 will only delay the inevitable. After looking into this topic a little more I think most of you will agree that it's pretty clear what a $25B bailout would fund: UAW and fuktard executives who can't manage a business to save their a$$.

Deep breath now and time for another drink.

 

[krazytrain]

Lets see -- why don't we all work for 5 bucks an hr. for all of us! every last job...!!!
so the owners can bank the rest and that will fix everything, no more bail outs, no
more middle class -- YES that should do it - with out unions you would still be
working for the fist ford co. that beat an killed people to to make the $$$$.
Just like they still do in 3ed world countrys don't fricken tell me they don't, my
friend just came back from china - seen some down right nasty sh1t there man,
he was there 2 years in big bizz and will not go back. do you realy think the unions
are the infection guys...?????????????

 

[Madtown]

After looking into this topic a little more I think most of you will agree that it's pretty clear what a $25B bailout would fund: UAW and fuktard executives who can't manage a business to save their a$$.

Dead on.

 

[coffeeboy]

No bailout !

I live in Canada, and 1st we can't afford to bail companies out in the billions
we don't have that kind of money..I would love to run my business into the ground after taking millions of $ off the top in bonuses and then cry for help.

Go OBAMA

 

[Gaz]

Lets see -- why don't we all work for 5 bucks an hr. for all of us! every last job...!!!
so the owners can bank the rest and that will fix everything, no more bail outs, no
more middle class -- YES that should do it - with out unions you would still be
working for the fist ford co. that beat an killed people to to make the $$$$.
Just like they still do in 3ed world countrys don't fricken tell me they don't, my
friend just came back from china - seen some down right nasty sh1t there man,
he was there 2 years in big bizz and will not go back. do you realy think the unions
are the infection guys...?????????????

Let's see...Yes. Not only yes but a great big emphatic 'yes' followed by numerous exclamation marks. This is the normal union argument. The last time I checked, we are still in the US; granted, we may be on a fast train to becoming something far worse than China. At one time in America, a long, long, long time ago, I think that unions were very useful in helping improve working conditions. But I can't remember the last time that I heard of an assembly line worker being beaten with a torque wrench or an assembly line runing through a open sewage drainage. Correct me if I am wrong and please provide a reputable citation.

Let me ask you this: Why on God's green earth do janitors at the little 3 need to make $20+ / hour? Isn't the whole point of the union to ensure workers rights and to make sure that they are treated FAIRLY in comparison to other similar jobs in the market?

 

[The Fourth Wolf]

Chapter 11.

Fire all the upper management.
Restructure the debt.
Renegotiate the union contracts.
Reorganize and develop a better business model AND a better (as in competitive) product line.

The joke for years about Ford (but applies to all of the Big 3) goes:

Ford:
A healthcare company that makes cars.

 

[Beels]

Lets see -- why don't we all work for 5 bucks an hr. for all of us! every last job...!!!
so the owners can bank the rest and that will fix everything, no more bail outs, no
more middle class -- YES that should do it - with out unions you would still be
working for the fist ford co. that beat an killed people to to make the $$$$.
Just like they still do in 3ed world countrys don't fricken tell me they don't, my
friend just came back from china - seen some down right nasty sh1t there man,
he was there 2 years in big bizz and will not go back. do you realy think the unions
are the infection guys...?????????????

Damn straight.

Don't you find it funny that Toyota can be profitable with its North American operations and their plants are non-unionized?

If working conditions are sooooo bad working for the big 3, goes elsewhere for work. No one has a gun to anyone's head. Parts of western Canada are in desperate need of laborers, but everyone wants to sit on their arse down east, waiting for a handout. On second thought, stay there. We don't need any more liberals out here dragging the place down.