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delrin washer in secondary
- Thread starter trevorvg
- Start date
Good question. That's the rotational speed of the bearing itself. In other words, the individual needle bearings can spin as fast as the bearing can spin around at 5100rpm. In this case, the entire assembly is spinning up to 8200rpm, but the individual bearings aren't spinning at all.
Torrington is the main manufacturer of this bearing (NTA-4052), just fyi.
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olymon
Well-known member
The bearing isn't rotating is it?? It doesn't even rotate a whole revolution in a secondary, or am I missing what you are talking about. The whole secondary turns that speed but the bearing really has barely any rotational speed at all it, is just taking the bind out of the clutch spring
Making JIS screws into junk
Making JIS screws into junk
I just received the roller setup from source inovations and am anxious to get it in and try it this season on my 11 PRO 163 with Stage 3 , I also was concerned about the additional .140 and the additional spring laod but at only 2 to 4 lbs , I think this will help but a spring change is also doable.
gtwitch in wyoming
gtwitch in wyoming
A big contributor to the "improved backshift" could, very likely, be from adding more preload to the spring... .140" with both washers.
This rise in initial and final spring force will give the secondary more "authority" over the primary and allow it to pull the primary back open (backshift) sooner than if it did not have the washer... or sooner than with a delrin setup.
A fair "apples to apples" test would be to have a .140 steel shim under the cup, OR two delrin washers plus an .080 steel shim OR the roller-thrust-bearing under the shim to see how the function compares on the snow.
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This rise in initial and final spring force will give the secondary more "authority" over the primary and allow it to pull the primary back open (backshift) sooner than if it did not have the washer... or sooner than with a delrin setup.
A fair "apples to apples" test would be to have a .140 steel shim under the cup, OR two delrin washers plus an .080 steel shim OR the roller-thrust-bearing under the shim to see how the function compares on the snow.
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This would not be a hard "apples to apples" teat to do on a nice sunshine day when the Wyoming wind is not blowing, may try and do this, this season!! Let you know if it happens. Does anyone know where to get the Moly Disulfidee Dry spray, seems I have seen it somewhere in the past but???
gtwitch in wyomig
gtwitch in wyomig
With my experience using the bearing and plates made the stock black secondary spring act like the black/purple secondary spring or even more. Imposing upshift and slowing track speed. The primary could not overcome it.
The cat guys were using these awhile ago and calling them 'shift assist bearing'. A lot of them were taken out for the same reasons.
The cat guys were using these awhile ago and calling them 'shift assist bearing'. A lot of them were taken out for the same reasons.
I agree and here is a little more info:
Adding washers increases the preload of the spring. Which increases belt tension over the entire shift range. This increases backshift and stalls upshift. However spring tension is should be considered to be a minor tuning variable when compared to the helix angle. You can get the same effect by changing the spring i.e. 150-250 to 160-260, but by simply adding a shim you get a very small precise change where as a spring is a lot more coarse. You have a limit however with a shim in that you can't add to many or go to thick or coil bind will occur. (the bearing thickness must be considered)
Adding the bearing decreases the friction. Friction has two effects in CTV tuning. First it reduces the hysteresis that stalls the change in sheave movement. So reduced friction will make the system more sensitive to upshift/backshift forces. Second it reduces the heat caused by the belt slipping on the sheaves. The new "tied" team clutch addresses some of this friction as it takes the twisting of the sheave out of the equation.
Carls cycle advocates this bearing in their "clutch kit" however they also add "belly buster weights" and a multi angel helix to offset increased backshift.
Cinno
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volcano buster
Well-known member
This was my discussion with a transmission guy that rides sleds too. He said it was like riding a merry-go-round. Sure, you are moving at the same speed as the ride, but pretty soon you hit a speed that things start to come apart. Some bearings are built to withstand the extra rotational speed.
Well, yeah, but in this application, given the size and mass of that bearing, you would probably need to spin the secondary at 180,000 rpm or more before the bearing would come apart....it's not going to fail because of rpms.
Delrin Answer.
I've heard the argument that 2 delrin washers with "plastic on plastic" has more friction than just one delrin washer... this IS true, at microscopic level AND 2 washers is STILL Hugely less friction than the rough cup/sheave-pocket rubbing on the plastic of just ONE washer... AND a polished or worn cup that has removed the yellow-zinc plating will rust, in short order, and cause even more friction against the plastic of the delrin... which is why I run the TWIN delrin washers, placed flat-to-flat face (three come in a package)
Putting the washer IN the cup, against the spring, is just not a good idea.
From Team Industries:
So, for the original original question posted in this thread
From the first page of this very thread:
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I've heard the argument that 2 delrin washers with "plastic on plastic" has more friction than just one delrin washer... this IS true, at microscopic level AND 2 washers is STILL Hugely less friction than the rough cup/sheave-pocket rubbing on the plastic of just ONE washer... AND a polished or worn cup that has removed the yellow-zinc plating will rust, in short order, and cause even more friction against the plastic of the delrin... which is why I run the TWIN delrin washers, placed flat-to-flat face (three come in a package)
Putting the washer IN the cup, against the spring, is just not a good idea.
From Team Industries:
So, for the original original question posted in this thread
... This post is my thoughts on the subject.
From the first page of this very thread:
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volcano buster
Well-known member
Picked up a bearing today.
No scientific numbers, but the factory assembly of metal cup on aluminum house has so much resistance it almost makes me believe it isn't meant to turn. Adding a single delrin under the cup makes it tremendously easier to turn, but once removed and the bearing and run washers were added, the spring would almost spin with hardly any resistance.
Is the dry Moly Lube the preferred lube?
No scientific numbers, but the factory assembly of metal cup on aluminum house has so much resistance it almost makes me believe it isn't meant to turn. Adding a single delrin under the cup makes it tremendously easier to turn, but once removed and the bearing and run washers were added, the spring would almost spin with hardly any resistance.
Is the dry Moly Lube the preferred lube?
Carls Cycle recommends a light coating of WD-40, I used a dry Moly Lube as it won't attract dust. Cinno
Do a search on this forum... you will find lots of threads on them.
You need a VERY good quality t27 bit... and best, heat with torch... and smack it with impact driver.
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You need a VERY good quality t27 bit... and best, heat with torch... and smack it with impact driver.
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Yes I too have broken many bits. Using the impact driver still either twisted the bits or stripped the head of the screw. The only thing that has worked for me is HEAT. Lots of heat. I point the torch at it for a full 60 seconds. It has worked flawlessly on the last 8 bolts I have unscrewed. I clean the threads with acetone and use blue loctite. I also replace them with the least bit of damage. You can buy these online for about 25 cents apiece and get the bigger T30 torx bit head. Search for : 1/4-28 X 5/8 TORX FHCS. The only difference between the Polaris part and the others is Polaris has the loctite pre-applied. The manual says if reusing the screws clean and replace with blue loctite. They mention two blue loctite types but the only difference is one needs to have the threads cleaned first and the other does not.
Regards,
cinno
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Which dimensions are you looking for?
Installed height, bearing and two washers for it to ride against... .140" (a little over an 1/8" thick)
Photo Credit: SourceInnovations
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Just changed springs on the Carls 660, it has bearing, cup, washer, spring, then roller. No plates on both sides of bearing.
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volcano buster
Well-known member
What spring changes are you making?
I put a thin washer under the spring cup and a thicker one against the clutch to sandwich the bearing on mine. The mating surface on the aluminum side was not flat all the way across the mating surface so the thicker washer was chosen to help bridge this irregularity.
I'm at about 120 miles on mine so I will pull it this next week, inspect and re-lube if it looks like it is holding up. Definitely feel it back shift better than the delrin.
Just freshening up the springs on both sleds is all I'm doing.
