delrin washer in secondary

[gunnerthesnowman]

There's a new roller bearing used by carls now, no more delrin washers being used.

This goes in the same place as we are putting the delrin washer

 

[mountainhorse]

Team calls for it to go between the Cup and Clutch (under the cup)....Which is where I've always placed it.

This simple washer is placed between the moveable sheave and the spring cup on the clutch. It provides a super slick surface to help eliminate spring binding as the clutch goes through its range of motion. Eliminating this binding maximizes the consistency of the Rapid Reaction™ Driven Clutch. One shim is recommended per clutch assembly

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[TheBreeze]

Damn it. I put mine between the spring and the cup. Team has instructions for a "fixed" and "floating" spring cup. Should have read instructions more closely.

https://startinglineproducts.com/instsheets/delrin%20washer.pdf

 

[Ultrasauras]

Carl's Brg

I agree, big improvement. I now am selling them too in Calgary along with Carl's clutching and even the machined and balanced new clutch. It's just that good.

What does the brg cost?

 

[mountainhorse]

The delrins are about $3 each.... from SLP or Team... OR WPS.




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[miko700]

why don't they just put em in from the factory for a couple bucks?

 

[sledneck_03]

why don't they just put em in from the factory for a couple bucks?

cause its not necessary but is a good idea. also they save that $3 per unit…over years and years of sleds…. adds up

 

[Sage Crusher]

Damn it. I put mine between the spring and the cup. Team has instructions for a "fixed" and "floating" spring cup. Should have read instructions more closely.

https://startinglineproducts.com/instsheets/delrin%20washer.pdf

Yep seen a few with the fixed spring cup- very easy to get confused - Thanks for attachment as it clearly shows how it can be misleading- and clarifies- the discussion
Tis better IMHO to have a floating cup / and as MH stated having 2 makes it a bit slicker having plastic mating surfaces.

S/C

 

[tuneman]

and as MH stated having 2 makes it a bit slicker having plastic mating surfaces.

Just an FYI for ya, guys (Sorry, my engineering mind is kicking in here). The static coefficient of friction between two pieces if Delrin is about .1 more than between Delrin and aluminum. In other words, the rotation will happen between the washer and the cup, way before it happens between two washers. So, there's no benefit to putting in two washers. Just use 1. Any time there's sliding friction involved, it's better to have dissimilar materials. Similar materials tend to stick together.

 

[kylant]

do the stock clutches have a fixed or floating spring cup?

 

[edgey]

The question has been asked in this thread but not answered what is the gain or benefit?

 

[mountainhorse]

Just an FYI for ya, guys (Sorry, my engineering mind is kicking in here). The static coefficient of friction between two pieces if Delrin is about .1 more than between Delrin and aluminum. In other words, the rotation will happen between the washer and the cup, way before it happens between two washers. So, there's no benefit to putting in two washers. Just use 1. Any time there's sliding friction involved, it's better to have dissimilar materials. Similar materials tend to stick together.

Engineering minds are great when they are kicking!!

And a good discussion is too.

I do agree with the theory behind that statement...

It assumes perfectly smooth surfaces of the aluminum and back side of the cup. But, since the aluminum/steel is not perfectly smooth, and harder than the delrin... there is some "digging in" to the plastic going on there,... that make it less than ideal and decreasing the advantage there.

Also... most delrin washers are installed after some use where the faces of the aluminum clutch and steel cup are slightly worn and rougher than ideal.

I have seen some delrin washers that were "chewed up" buy rough mating surfaces... which greatly diminished function.

For me, the two smooth faces of the delrin, even with their slightly higher coefficient of friction, still will rotate quite well and not bind given the forces and rotation angles.

But you do have me thinking... If you were to polish the backside of the cup...and somehow figure out how to prevent corrosion (which would be abrasive to the delrin) and remain polished...then we would have something there.






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[Sixat38]

edgey, go back an read mountainhorse's post. Post #10 in this thread.

And speaking to that post this is what I personally found too. I've ran one inside the cup between the spring and cup and found the spring to bite into the delrin washer. This position of the delrin washer is per the SLP link someone above me attached.

I've also run one under the cup as MH stated and had better results (per Team directions)

That said I have filed the edge of my spring smooth-ish and I run two delrins. One under the spring (inside the cup) and one under the cup (per Team).

If I had one delrin I would run it under the cup. If I wanted to run two, I'd smooth out the spring end, and run one under the cup and one under the spring inside the cup. If I wanted to run three, I'd put the third inside the upper casting between the spring & casting. YMMV.

 

[mountainhorse]

The question has been asked in this thread but not answered what is the gain or benefit?

The gain is that the secondary spring is allowed to cycle through its compression without resistance to twisting during that compression. This allows the spring to work smoothly and be less prone to breakage. Plus it allows the two sheaves to turn, relative to each other, more smoothly.

The purpose of the delrin washers is to allow one end of the spring to slightly rotate, smoothly, as the springs cycles through its compression stroke.

The stock cup does not allow this as the end of the spring digs into the cup and the friction on the steel cup to the sheave keeps it in place.

Both ends of the spring do not need to rotate.... just needs to keep the spring from binding on the 10° or so of twist needed.

If you place the delrin washer between the cup and spring, the spring will dig into the soft delrin washer ... not enough to ruin it... but it will have a pressure point on at the spring end.... I know that many have used them IN the cup for years and are happy with it... I was not.

SO... I run two UNDER the spring cup... it does not matter if the spring stays fixed in the cup... because now, the cup will turn.. and you have slick plastic on plastic that allows for ultra easy "twist" of the spring. The 10° of twist will never generate enough heat to fuse them together... and, if you have a clutch that gets so hot you are melting the delrin washers together... You have MUCH bigger problems.

Thats my two cents.







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[mountainhorse]

do the stock clutches have a fixed or floating spring cup?

Floating





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[tuneman]

But you do have me thinking... If you were to polish the backside of the cup...and somehow figure out how to prevent corrosion (which would be abrasive to the delrin) and remain polished...then we would have something there.

Ahh, instead of two Delrin, put in one smooth/polished stainless shim washer and one delrin washer. Then you'll get better slip between the two washers without having to polish the cup. What do you think of that?

 

[TRS]

Food for thought concerning the thrust bearing. What increase to initial spring load does it add? How about final? Is there an increase or decrease in track speed. I understand it holds RPM but it may be at a cost. Back shifts better? Wrong helix band aided by more initial and final?
Edit: stacking delrin and washers will change springs also. Clutch kits are designed around known parameters.

 

[mountainhorse]

Yes... adding spacers under the spring/cup would increase spring force... but the rollers stay in the same position relative to the helix.

A single delrin, 0.030", 2 delrin washers 0.060", roller thrust bearing and one steel washer 0.110", roller thrust bearing and 2 steel washers 0.140"

If I recall correctly, the engineer at Team told me that one delrin washer, at 0.030", would raise the spring pre-load by about 2lbs.




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[Reg2view]

Carl's kit with two derlins, gold spring, their helix, was put together with the shim effect in mind. Relating to TRS's point. But, springs also get soft over time, if you don't change them, kit or not.

If you change one out of routine maint., do yourself a favor and change the other, also. Then put on a new belt.

 

[TRS]

I am also on the one delrin band wagon.
When Team reversed the winding, of their original springs, also helped this situation.