Cooke City Avy Death

[mthoodskiguy]

12-15 mins is not fast at all especially given that his boot toe was sticking out.

I love people on here that r complete idiots that just sound off from the hip...15 minutes is considered the golden number in avie rescue.. U done any of those bud?

the fact remains that statistically speaking your chances of survival r very good if dug up within 15 min.. I am considering stats and not that specific situation.. The swiss avie institute showed that Your chances of survival r 93 percent if dug up within 15 min.. But maybe ur smarter than them... .

 

[James T Kirk]

DID YOU REALLY JUST SAY THAT!!!!

In a controlled environment, i.e.avy course you have to be able to locate 2 beacons buried 2-3 feet deep in less then 5 minutes. Most good avy courses will use actual debris to conduct these practices/tests to simulate actual conditions. If you are set up in a safe zone ready to react when someone is climbing (which you should be if climbing one at a time) and can mark the victims point last seen to start your search there is no reason these times arent possible in an actual scenario with PRACTICE especially on a single burial with a visual clue.

i mean no disrespect to those involved, i know how you feel, i have been there, just dont want people to have the perception that 15 mins is fast enough because it isnt.

 

[mthoodskiguy]

In a controlled environment, i.e.avy course you have to be able to locate 2 beacons buried 2-3 feet deep in less then 5 minutes. Most good avy courses will use actual debris to conduct these practices/tests to simulate actual conditions. If you are set up in a safe zone ready to react when someone is climbing (which you should be if climbing one at a time) and can mark the victims point last seen to start your search there is no reason these times arent possible in an actual scenario with PRACTICE especially on a single burial with a visual clue.

i mean no disrespect to those involved, i know how you feel, i have been there, just dont want people to have the perception that 15 mins is fast enough because it isnt.

93 percent chance of survival if dug up in 15... Of a 123 buried from 1981 to 1991 only 8 died... And I have said this many times in this thread already it ain't the burial that kills ya it were the avie drags you.. Most people die from blunt force trauma but i am sure u knew that..

 

[aebsledder]

What I am in utter disbelief is,
WTF were u idiots thinking by even being close to these slopes at Lionshead or Cooke, @#%k!!!!!!!!

Rode the Denny Creek trail to the first open bowl where you can see the east facing slopes of Lionshead. Rode to the far east of the terrain and avoided all runout zones. Anything that was even remotely sketchy (including any slope 15-20 degrees less than 100 yards long) we traversed one at a time. Saw the people in question from a distance and turned around and went back down the trail. The GNFAC was also up there the day before. Having been caught in an avalanche before I am really wary of where and what I sled on. That being said, anything can happen and you always need to be aware of your surroundings. Thanks for the concern though.

 

[VRod]

Besides having all the necessary gear...

- Avy Pack Airbag system (which I think is just as important as a beacon, not sure why the avy centers don't promote them)
- NEWER beacon that you know how to use
- Shovel (not hard plastic that breaks when it's super cold)
- Probe

... people don't use common sense. I was up in Cooke this past weekend and saw probably close to 50 slides (after the fact) and heard a few. When a group goes out riding in these kind of conditions they all need to huddle up and have a conversation about where they will be riding and make it clear that no one in the group will be climbing anything. Usually what happens is the leader will climb up a bench and everyone else follows and is in danger. Just use common sense people and don't put yourself in the position in the first place. Stick to the smaller rolling hills, meadows and low angle treed areas.

 

[rmk685]

There is a huge diffence between practice and when it actually happens as far as mentallity goes. Most the time visual clues (boot, glove, etc) sticking up from snow are usually not noticed during a real rescue as you are concentrating so hard on your beacon that you have tunnel vision.

Been four years today since our avy, Myself and another were partially buried, dug ourselves out, located and had Dale dug out in around 5 minutes, but it was to late as the force of the avy was to much. The other guy buried was uncovered in around 15 minutes and walked away unharmed. My point being sometimes it dont matter weather its a quick rescue or not, main thing is doing it as quick as possible without overlooking obvious clues that could help the rescue.

After being in one and all that I could visualize tumbling down the hill was my 3 month old baby certainly changes your view about everything.

My thoughts and prayers to everyone ever involved with an avy. Hope your tearing up all the untouched powder up their XC MAN(Dale Wagner)

 

[Scott]

And when that snow stops sliding it flash freezes. It can be VERY hard to dig in.

Especially with those lexan shovels that like to break. I don't know about the new ones...but the old ones sucked.
I've seen alum shovels fold also.

They are not meant to work like a garden shovel by putting leverage on them.
They are meant to chop and square out a block to be removed.

More like a scoop shovel than a digging shovel.

 

[snowww1]

Hard to believe that quote is still being used, "93% chance of survival if you are uncovered in 15 minutes". Don't believe it. That study is from the 1990's in a small area of Europe where there are very few trees. That statistic does not apply to snowmobiling in North America. Some avalanche instructors are still quoting it and it is outdated misleading information.
Many people have been uncovered in 5 minutes or less and have not survived. If you get snow in your lungs, you're not surviving. Going 15 minutes without enough oxygen is hard to survive.
Remember to always do a quick visual search while searching with your beacon. Your eyes are quicker than the beacon in many situations. Searchers tend to get tunnel vision on the beacon readout and miss visual clues.

Mike Duffy
Avalanche1.com
Avalanche education for mountain riders.

 

[Scott]

Mike, this is a VERY useful post.

THANK YOU!!!!!!

Hard to believe that quote is still being used, "93% chance of survival if you are uncovered in 15 minutes". Don't believe it. That study is from the 1990's in a small area of Europe where there are very few trees. That statistic does not apply to snowmobiling in North America. Some avalanche instructors are still quoting it and it is outdated misleading information.
Many people have been uncovered in 5 minutes or less and have not survived. If you get snow in your lungs, you're not surviving. Going 15 minutes without enough oxygen is hard to survive.
Remember to always do a quick visual search while searching with your beacon. Your eyes are quicker than the beacon in many situations. Searchers tend to get tunnel vision on the beacon readout and miss visual clues.

Mike Duffy
Avalanche1.com
Avalanche education for mountain riders.

 

[bm77164]

i had never seen or been involved with a large avalanche untill yesterday. my friend was uncovered with in seven min and he did not survive. untill you have been in the situation before its very hard to understand the chaos that ensues after a slide. we were in an area no one thought dangerous. the slide started much further up the hill, and he was caught in the runout. all i can say guys is be careful out there. sledding sure wont be the same after that. and i can tell you its something you never want to go thru. Doing CPR on a friend while waiting for lifeflight to arrive is a life changing event. This Kids poor father and cousin witnessed this whole thing. Guys please remember all you have to lose. One at a time on the hill, wear your gear, and keep your eyes open. if there are small natural slides here and there the risk for a large avalanche is staring you right in the face.

 

[rmk685]

My thoughts and prayers are with ya, I know the exact feeling.

On these high avy days, before anyone goes out in the morning they need to think to themselves what it would be like calling home to a victims family that he/she would not be coming home and they would have a whole different view of where they are riding. If they don't they would be pretty much heartless.

 

[bm77164]

My thoughts and prayers are with ya, I know the exact feeling.

On these high avy days, before anyone goes out in the morning they need to think to themselves what it would be like calling home to a victims family that he/she would not be coming home and they would have a whole different view of where they are riding. If they don't they would be pretty much heartless.

agree with that 100%.

 

[aebsledder]

i had never seen or been involved with a large avalanche untill yesterday. my friend was uncovered with in seven min and he did not survive. untill you have been in the situation before its very hard to understand the chaos that ensues after a slide. we were in an area no one thought dangerous. the slide started much further up the hill, and he was caught in the runout. all i can say guys is be careful out there. sledding sure wont be the same after that. and i can tell you its something you never want to go thru. Doing CPR on a friend while waiting for lifeflight to arrive is a life changing event. This Kids poor father and cousin witnessed this whole thing. Guys please remember all you have to lose. One at a time on the hill, wear your gear, and keep your eyes open. if there are small natural slides here and there the risk for a large avalanche is staring you right in the face.

I am so sorry. Where did this happen? I know what you mean about the chaos. It is very hard to think clearly after you have been involved in an avalanche. My thoughts and prayers to you and your friends family.

 

[bm77164]

I am so sorry. Where did this happen? I know what you mean about the chaos. It is very hard to think clearly after you have been involved in an avalanche. My thoughts and prayers to you and your friends family.

In between Georgetown lake and warmsprings creek.

 

[2XM3]

it was in our local paper....RIP so sad

 

[getoan]

Ride safe everyone, my thoughts are with all those involved and effected...

 

[WingNutRacing]

Sorry

Sympathy to the family and friends.




That's all





Knowledge is power
use it wisely.

 

[Spud]

In between Georgetown lake and warmsprings creek.

the slide was near the redlion area near discovery ski.
Thoughts & prayers go out...

 

[MNpowderfiend]

Yikes. My thoughts and prayers to all involved. This gives me gut rot hearing about this.

I'm the first to scream freedom, personal responsibility, anti-nanny-state, etc. etc. Capital "R", small "L" as Milton Friedman used to say.

BUT: We have guard rails along the switch backs on Chief Joseph highway, and if someone is pulling a 4 place and maybe going a smidge fast, those guard rails come in handy don't they. Was that person "irresponsible" for going a little too fast in the excitement getting to the parking lot? Yes, probably. Are the guard rails impeding on anyones liberty or freedom? Probably not.

NOW: How would an orange sign on the east edge of Cooke City, MT that reads, "DANGER, EXTREME AVALANCE DANGER TODAY, GO BACK AND READ THE AVY REPORT" imped on anyone's freedom? Since cities and counties and states are generally immune to lawsuits, why doesn't Cooke put up a sign? The sign is a success if one person reassesses the danger and decides not to climb Lulu. It won't catch everyone, but it would make me think twice about the slopes. Cooke has a direct concern, they want people to come to Cooke and play and spend money as safely as they can.

I'm not saying this would have helped here and I'm not saying anything bad about anyone. I'm just responding to an earlier post that said something about nanny-state and lawyers.

Eric

 

[aebsledder]

Yikes. My thoughts and prayers to all involved. This gives me gut rot hearing about this.

I'm the first to scream freedom, personal responsibility, anti-nanny-state, etc. etc. Capital "R", small "L" as Milton Friedman used to say.

BUT: We have guard rails along the switch backs on Chief Joseph highway, and if someone is pulling a 4 place and maybe going a smidge fast, those guard rails come in handy don't they. Was that person "irresponsible" for going a little too fast in the excitement getting to the parking lot? Yes, probably. Are the guard rails impeding on anyones liberty or freedom? Probably not.

NOW: How would an orange sign on the east edge of Cooke City, MT that reads, "DANGER, EXTREME AVALANCE DANGER TODAY, GO BACK AND READ THE AVY REPORT" imped on anyone's freedom? Since cities and counties and states are generally immune to lawsuits, why doesn't Cooke put up a sign? The sign is a success if one person reassesses the danger and decides not to climb Lulu. It won't catch everyone, but it would make me think twice about the slopes. Cooke has a direct concern, they want people to come to Cooke and play and spend money as safely as they can.

I'm not saying this would have helped here and I'm not saying anything bad about anyone. I'm just responding to an earlier post that said something about nanny-state and lawyers.

Eric

I definitely think that idea has some merits. I was thinking of a sign similar to the ones we have in MT that have fire danger on them. The one thing I would really be concerned with is it almost gives people an excuse to put the responsibility on someone else. For example, say the sign reads "moderate" danger for the day. A person goes out, sees some signs of instability, but engages in some risky behavior anyways because the forecast was "moderate". Avalanche forecasting is incredibly tricky. I think the GNFAC does a great job, but it is far from an exact science. Conditions can vary from slope to slope within the same drainage. The key is being able to recognize on your own the dangers that are out there. This is even tricky for experts sometimes. I guess the reality is that ultimately the responsibility lies solely with the individual. Education and awareness are two things that are probably going to save more lives than any sign will.