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Are 4-Strokes Really Closing the Gap?

im sorry but yamaha quality is bs,sure the engine is solid but so is my can am 4s..on my nytro there were glaring issues with quality,snowchecked a new nytro based on the myth of yamaha quality and was a winter of disappointment..
handwarmers,
oiltank,
frontend ball joints,
horrible running boards,
rear suspension

4 Yamahas so far and the one thing I can say with absolute certainty is that the build/assembly quality has been great and the manufacturer problems have been MINIMAL.

I am not sure if you are saying you were just not happy with how those items worked, or if they were all defective or failed on you under warranty?

In my case, over the last 4 years, I opted to UPGRADE every one of those items you listed to get better overall performance from them. But none of them failed me from the factory.
 
Here ya go another idiot spouting crap. scroll up the threads to find the Viper with two gallons of gas at 558 pounds, that is if you are smart enough to be able to do that.

My gawd guys at least try to make it sound like you know what you are talking about.



641?
 

Look at thier notes on the piece of aluminum in the video. If you believe an Apex is only 22 pounds heavier than a Viper there is nothing I can do to change your mind. (secret here is added turbo weight on Viper in weigh pic)

However, I weighed my 2014 M8 153 track and my converted N/A Viper with 153 track ON THE SAME SCALES and there was 22 pounds difference. Now the fuel when I weighed was an accurate GUESS but close enough for me.
 
2 things I have to touch on. This could get a little long winded so be pre-warned.

1) Engine performance.
It's important to note that Yamaha has not been any closer in overall performance in the past 25 years than they are now.
What has changed, is that no longer does a modified Yamaha motor compare, it blows the offerings from the other brands out of the water. And still have bullet proof reliability.

Let me put it another way....Since the late 80's Yamaha sleds have always needed pipes/heads/reeds to compete on a performance standpoint. Chassis/suspension aside. That was a $1500-3000 hit right off the showroom floor to have comparable HP to the other 3 brands. But in today's world of Yamaha 4s they not only have comparable HP, they dwarf the other 3 brands when adding forced induction. Suspension is pretty much on par, and the chassis still leaves some room for improvement(weight-wise)

The V-Max 4, Mountain Max, SRX, Viper 2 strokes all needed some serious massaging to simply compete. Let alone chassis modifications. Now we have a $2000 option with factory backing to surpass any 2 stroke available....with warranty, and reliability not known to the 2 stroke world? I'd say Yamaha has done more than we(non 4s crowd) want to give them credit for.
Meanwhile our beloved 2 strokes are getting less reliable and can no longer "hang tough" at elevation compared to our 4 stroke brotheren. Modify them and we lose any factory backing(warranty) and even more important, reliability(if we can even call it that)

2) Riding style.
I had a SxViper with a 144" that had the pipes/heads/reeds combo and it was one of the funnest sleds I've ridden. Of course there was suspension and chassis work as well. It fooled many 900 Cats back in the day. Not to mention 800's from SD and Pol. A lot of people couldn't believe it worked as well as it did.(I can thank my then step-brother for that as he was the PO) That's all about set-up and a little about how people conform to new chassis'. Like many early XP's and people claiming they could never ride them. If you rode it like a IQ or an older Edge or ZX, you couldn't get out of your own way on one. The trick is to mold your riding style to the sled you're on. You don't drive a Dodge Viper like you do your 1 ton Diesel do you?

I own a 2005 T-Vec with everything done to it minus a full blown tunnel. I run it in the 220hp-250hp range every ride. It's considerably heavier than my other sleds, and I'm ok with that. I ride it for the machine it is. And I can still go everywhere I need to, to keep up with the groups I ride with.
Like Christopher mentioned earlier, it takes much more energy to ride it like I would my Rev or M sled. But if I need to, I'll get down and dirty just like I would my other sleds. I won't be riding aggressive all day, or for multiple days, but I change my riding style to fit the sled and its power.
I use more throttle control, make the Boost throw the sled around instead of trying to manhandle it. This is what most people fail to do. And some flat our refuse to alter "the way I ride" for the machine.
I've literally jumped from a almost stock 670X, to my Vector, then my XP, and back again and I can't say I 'struggle" on any of them.
I don't ride them all the same, I don't pretend they are the same. Different animals all together. Honestly, the number of people that swear up and down that they can't ride a sled for 'X' number of reasons boils down to this simple fact most of the time.

I remember the first time I rode a Dragon, I was laying in the snow twice within 50ft of pulling the cord. I was trying to ride it like my XP. Stupid right? I found that balance point and where my feet needed to be and it looked like I had been riding one for years.

I can't stress this one enough, people need to understand that their riding style has to conform to what the sled is capable of, and not the other way around. It should be an extension of you, not simply something 'we ride'. I used to fight this nearly everyday I had the demo sled out with new or potential customers. There was always at least one guy in the group who scoffed at me for how easy I made riding the sled look while he struggled. Then I'd take his sled for a ride and be just as fluid. I remember one lost sale distinctly because the potential customer flat out stomped his feet refusing to change the way he tried riding the sled. Luckily I got thru to most everyone else I've ever had to explain it to. That guy, to this day is still riding a 2001 RMK 800.

How does this tie into whether or not 4-strokes are making any headway against 2-strokes?
Everything. We aren't riding spec sheets and we don't take dyno's out to our favorite riding spots. We take the sleds themselves. Like any good rider, they can find the strengths and weaknesses from any sled. Push that sled to the limit and get the most out of it.
Whether it's 80mph down a 1-2ft mogul trail, straight up a Revelstoke chute, or busting a boondocking line that shouldn't be possible....get a good rider on any sled and they will amaze you beyond what you think was capable, in terrain you never though possible.

I mean, it shouldn't have been possible to highmark 800 Revs and M7's with a bone stock Apex, but my brother and I had an absolute blast in '06 doing just that. Literally buckled over laughing our lungs out because these spodes read in the rags and saw online that it simply wasn't possible. I'd venture a guess that 75% of all people I've met on the hill need to focus on their riding and not the performance of their sled. And I've ridden with some heavyweights of the sledding world. World Champs, X-Games medalists, and simply some bad^ss riders in general. Not to mention my riding consists of 90% Revelstoke, Sicamous, Valemont, and Whistler areas.

And for those that want Yamaha to 'catch up' to the others right out of the box, keep waiting. It's only been since the '84 Phazer that the men in blue(which the Phazer was not offered in) were on top of the heap. What's a few more years when you've waited 30 right?

I'd love to be a Yamaha or Cat dealer with a boosted 4 stroke offering showing people just what these new sleds have/will do in the past and for seasons to come. Hell, I wanted a Tundra Extreme as my demo for '11 just to should people the capabilities of such a machine.(Might have been a good thing I was denied that request)
 
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A dream sled from Yamaha would be a 410# 800cc triple, 163 with a powder claw track, triple pipes by Power Inc., timber rear skid and fox floats up front.....Santa Yamasaki do you hear me ??

Build It Yamaha And They Will Come....Our society wants choices why not build a 4S and a 2S just like in the Yamaha line of dirt bikes.

DPG
 
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2 things I have to touch on. This could get a little long winded so be pre-warned.

1) Engine performance.
It's important to note that Yamaha has not been any closer in overall performance in the past 25 years than they are now.
What has changed, is that no longer does a modified Yamaha motor compare, it blows the offerings from the other brands out of the water. And still have bullet proof reliability.

Let me put it another way....Since the late 80's Yamaha sleds have always needed pipes/heads/reeds to compete on a performance standpoint. Chassis/suspension aside. That was a $1500-3000 hit right off the showroom floor to have comparable HP to the other 3 brands. But in today's world of Yamaha 4s they not only have comparable HP, they dwarf the other 3 brands when adding forced induction. Suspension is pretty much on par, and the chassis still leaves some room for improvement(weight-wise)

The V-Max 4, Mountain Max, SRX, Viper 2 strokes all needed some serious massaging to simply compete. Let alone chassis modifications. Now we have a $2000 option with factory backing to surpass any 2 stroke available....with warranty, and reliability not known to the 2 stroke world? I'd say Yamaha has done more than we(non 4s crowd) want to give them credit for.
Meanwhile our beloved 2 strokes are getting less reliable and can no longer "hang tough" at elevation compared to our 4 stroke brotheren. Modify them and we lose any factory backing(warranty) and even more important, reliability(if we can even call it that)

2) Riding style.
I had a SxViper with a 144" that had the pipes/heads/reeds combo and it was one of the funnest sleds I've ridden. Of course there was suspension and chassis work as well. It fooled many 900 Cats back in the day. Not to mention 800's from SD and Pol. A lot of people couldn't believe it worked as well as it did.(I can thank my then step-brother for that as he was the PO) That's all about set-up and a little about how people conform to new chassis'. Like many early XP's and people claiming they could never ride them. If you rode it like a IQ or an older Edge or ZX, you couldn't get out of your own way on one. The trick is to mold your riding style to the sled you're on. You don't drive a Dodge Viper like you do your 1 ton Diesel do you?

I own a 2005 T-Vec with everything done to it minus a full blown tunnel. I run it in the 220hp-250hp range every ride. It's considerably heavier than my other sleds, and I'm ok with that. I ride it for the machine it is. And I can still go everywhere I need to, to keep up with the groups I ride with.
Like Christopher mentioned earlier, it takes much more energy to ride it like I would my Rev or M sled. But if I need to, I'll get down and dirty just like I would my other sleds. I won't be riding aggressive all day, or for multiple days, but I change my riding style to fit the sled and its power.
I use more throttle control, make the Boost throw the sled around instead of trying to manhandle it. This is what most people fail to do. And some flat our refuse to alter "the way I ride" for the machine.
I've literally jumped from a almost stock 670X, to my Vector, then my XP, and back again and I can't say I 'struggle" on any of them.
I don't ride them all the same, I don't pretend they are the same. Different animals all together. Honestly, the number of people that swear up and down that they can't ride a sled for 'X' number of reasons boils down to this simple fact most of the time.

I remember the first time I rode a Dragon, I was laying in the snow twice within 50ft of pulling the cord. I was trying to ride it like my XP. Stupid right? I found that balance point and where my feet needed to be and it looked like I had been riding one for years.

I can't stress this one enough, people need to understand that their riding style has to conform to what the sled is capable of, and not the other way around. It should be an extension of you, not simply something 'we ride'. I used to fight this nearly everyday I had the demo sled out with new or potential customers. There was always at least one guy in the group who scoffed at me for how easy I made riding the sled look while he struggled. Then I'd take his sled for a ride and be just as fluid. I remember one lost sale distinctly because the potential customer flat out stomped his feet refusing to change the way he tried riding the sled. Luckily I got thru to most everyone else I've ever had to explain it to. That guy, to this day is still riding a 2001 RMK 800.

How does this tie into whether or not 4-strokes are making any headway against 2-strokes?
Everything. We aren't riding spec sheets and we don't take dyno's out to our favorite riding spots. We take the sleds themselves. Like any good rider, they can find the strengths and weaknesses from any sled. Push that sled to the limit and get the most out of it.
Whether it's 80mph down a 1-2ft mogul trail, straight up a Revelstoke chute, or busting a boondocking line that shouldn't be possible....get a good rider on any sled and they will amaze you beyond what you think was capable, in terrain you never though possible.

I mean, it shouldn't have been possible to highmark 800 Revs and M7's with a bone stock Apex, but my brother and I had an absolute blast in '06 doing just that. Literally buckled over laughing our lungs out because these spodes read in the rags and saw online that it simply wasn't possible. I'd venture a guess that 75% of all people I've met on the hill need to focus on their riding and not the performance of their sled. And I've ridden with some heavyweights of the sledding world. World Champs, X-Games medalists, and simply some bad^ss riders in general. Not to mention my riding consists of 90% Revelstoke, Sicamous, Valemont, and Whistler areas.

And for those that want Yamaha to 'catch up' to the others right out of the box, keep waiting. It's only been since the '84 Phazer that the men in blue(which the Phazer was not offered in) were on top of the heap. What's a few more years when you've waited 30 right?

I'd love to be a Yamaha or Cat dealer with a boosted 4 stroke offering showing people just what these new sleds have/will do in the past and for seasons to come. Hell, I wanted a Tundra Extreme as my demo for '11 just to should people the capabilities of such a machine.(Might have been a good thing I was denied that request)
I agree totally, I ride my 04rx1, my 13 xm and my wifes fst polaris. Love em all and ride them to my abilities . All of them are fun.
 
A heavy engine needs a heavy chassis........

So we are there. Don't expect much more than we have right now. If you were to put a fourstroke in a Pro, it would crumple right up, heck they do that anyway.
I'll be staying on a turbo four for many reasons, but light and nimble isn't ever going to be one of them.

Owen
 
I truly believe that Yamaha's 4 stroke without a turbo are a complete flop in the mountains against Poo, Cat & Doo "stock" mountain sleds....Add a turbo to the Yamaha and point it "straight" in any direction and the Yamaha competes above and beyond.

With that said if you believe mountain riding is all about "point & shot" than the Yamaha 4 stroke my very well be the ticket. However for most, mountain riding is very diverse and I believe that a "stock" 2 stroke mountain sleds without the high cost of a turbo shines best for very diverse mountain riding. Light Weight, Nimble With Low To Mid Range Torque = Excellent Mountain Sled. Thank You Poo, Cat & Doo For Delivering Just That.....Yamaha Can Deliver The Same However They Are Committed To Different Technology.

How cool would it be to ride a 410# 800 Triple Piped 163 Yamaha ? Good God Where Do I Sign.

DPG

I agree with you that without a turbo, the sales of the 7000/Viper MTX would be very low.

With that said, the Viper is the closest to handling like a two stroke of any 4 stroke to date. With a turbocharger, the sled is ridiculously fun. We just returned from Revelstoke, BC two weeks ago and the conditions were very spring like (mostly setup snow) - I did not find the sled much different getting around than guys on 2 strokes.

I think the thing that makes this sled so good is the balance point of the sled. The mass is much more centralized than any previous 4s, so even though it is 100lbs heavier than some 2 strokes, you don't feel it.

The Viper is far more than a "point and shoot"

I know that some guys don't really care about having big power and that light weight is key for them to enjoy their type of riding. For me, I love to have the power (with our turbo of course) that allows you to pick the skis up at will and go just about anyplace you want. That and the sound of the turbo whining and the blow off valve working and the instantaneous acceleration that never stops pulling are the addictive qualities that make it all fun for me.
 
If you build a high performance 4 stroke engine that dont have to have anymore reliability than the Poo 800, it could be pretty light and powerful, then slap it into a Pro rmk chassi, how far off would it be ?
 
Hmmm the 4S for me was fun in wide open bowls and open areas...And the 2S is more fun in trees and tight areas due them being so nimble.....When I owned my RX1, Apex & Vector turbo's thats how my experience was.

DPG

I still have a RX1 as a guest sled I ride every once in a while and I agree when we are talking about the old heavy ill handling pigs. 4 stroke in a Viper is nothing like the old Yamahas.
 
I agree with you that without a turbo, the sales of the 7000/Viper MTX would be very low.

With that said, the Viper is the closest to handling like a two stroke of any 4 stroke to date. With a turbocharger, the sled is ridiculously fun. We just returned from Revelstoke, BC two weeks ago and the conditions were very spring like (mostly setup snow) - I did not find the sled much different getting around than guys on 2 strokes.

I think the thing that makes this sled so good is the balance point of the sled. The mass is much more centralized than any previous 4s, so even though it is 100lbs heavier than some 2 strokes, you don't feel it.

The Viper is far more than a "point and shoot"

I know that some guys don't really care about having big power and that light weight is key for them to enjoy their type of riding. For me, I love to have the power (with our turbo of course) that allows you to pick the skis up at will and go just about anyplace you want. That and the sound of the turbo whining and the blow off valve working and the instantaneous acceleration that never stops pulling are the addictive qualities that make it all fun for me.

Move the front skid shock lower hole forward and it makes an incredibly fun wheelie machine. Raise rear shock pressure for amount of wheelies. Talk about feeling light...........
 
I know that some guys don't really care about having big power and that light weight is key for them to enjoy their type of riding.

For me, I love to have the power (with our turbo of course) that allows you to pick the skis up at will and go just about anyplace you want.

That and the sound of the turbo whining and the blow off valve working and the instantaneous acceleration that never stops pulling are the addictive qualities that make it all fun for me.

Ya.
I have heard about people like that. :face-icon-small-sho
But I have never actually met one in person.

Every time I ever let someone climb on my Supercharged Nytro or my Son's Turbocharged Nytro they came off with a HUGE FRIKIN PERMAGRINN on their face.:face-icon-small-hap

NO ONE EVER FORGETS their first ride on a fully boosted sled!
 
NO ONE EVER FORGETS their first ride on a fully boosted sled!

Like it was yesterday! I was riding a 1404 triple in a King Cat that day and Fuji let me take his MCX RX-1 for a rip up on top of Callahan....Never had so much power at my finger tips and just couldn't stop thinking about it. Even with the 1404 all weekend, I couldn't stop thinking about boost.
 
Yup.
I SOOOO remember it.
Climbed on that sled, pushed the throttle and the damn thing SHOT OUT from under me and left me just sitting in the snow dazzed and amazed. I was utterly unprepared for the massive acceleration of a stage II turbo.

After that day there was NO TURNING BACK!:face-icon-small-hap:face-icon-small-hap



No matter what the troubles of the world are, when I push in the throttle and the boost kicks in, the weight of the world lifts off my shoulder and the smile on my face returns. EVERY SINGLE TIME!

PermagrinLogo.jpg
 
Ya.
I have heard about people like that. :face-icon-small-sho
But I have never actually met one in person.

Every time I ever let someone climb on my Supercharged Nytro or my Son's Turbocharged Nytro they came off with a HUGE FRIKIN PERMAGRINN on their face.:face-icon-small-hap

NO ONE EVER FORGETS their first ride on a fully boosted sled!

My RX-FUN pulled so hard 9 years ago my forearms are still hurting....Perhaps my most memorable experience was waiting for the turbo to spool up aka lag. The MCX rear mount hit so hard once spooled up it knocked me on my butt a time or two until I got used to it...I've done a little bull riding back in the day and believe it or not there are some similarities.

DPG
 
Oh Ya.
I am so ready to get my hands on the new Viper and get started on the Turbo Installation.

Its gonna be a GREAT YEAR next season!!
 
I don't have the time at this time of year to keep up with every post so excuse me if I missed something.

Why is the viper better than the Pro-Lite 900 (comparable power) I rode this year using the same chassis but adding a 100+lbs, wider body and tall snow dragging spindles? The power on that sled would kill my stockish Pro yet it couldn't pull the same lines as my Pro both with me on it and the owner. Or the 300hp evo PC1100T super lightweight build that I rode with that I made look silly with my GF's STOCK Pro 600?

No, I haven't rode a viper but what is so drastically different from the above sleds I mentioned to make it so good??? Is it the big improvement over the nytro that has the blue crew so excited?
 
Ya.
I have heard about people like that. :face-icon-small-sho
But I have never actually met one in person.

Every time I ever let someone climb on my Supercharged Nytro or my Son's Turbocharged Nytro they came off with a HUGE FRIKIN PERMAGRINN on their face.:face-icon-small-hap

NO ONE EVER FORGETS their first ride on a fully boosted sled!

Yes you have Christopher - my brother who is used to 230+ mph cars said our 1100T Big Chute had too much power for him...after he almost killed us both. Ask Amber about that one. I guarantee she will grin from ear to ear when you even mention it.
 
Sounds out of whack....a stock Viper 162 LE is $14,999 or SE is $14,799 right off the Canadian website. Pro 163 is $13,999 right off the CDN website.

Seems strange to get a big discount on one, and virtually no discount on the other.

Ya 15000 plus 2k for a turbo puts you at 17k and 1k for install puts you at 18k. I didn't shop around on prices and I am sure there was a better deal to be found.

At the end of the day to get into a Turbo Viper was going to cost a lot more money then a Polaris.

When Yamaha comes out with a sled that has roughly the same HP and whieght gut as the other manufactures two strokes I will be on board.
 
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