Are 4-Strokes Really Closing the Gap?

[christopher]

would love too know how many hours all you so called experts have on a viper.

Less than one hour.

Rode it.

Loved it.

Snowchecked one.

Plan on riding the batsnot out it for the next several years till Yamaha releases the all new Mountain Max and leapfrogs a back into the dominant position of mountain sled manufacturers.

 

[christopher]

.

I'm also a little shocked at Yamaha who in house has outstanding technology and engineers...Why turn to Cat for help ??? And Why turn to MPI for help ??

DPG

One of the great questions of our time.
Arctic cat brings production agility to the table, something that Yamaha really isn't known for. They can and do implement changes rapidly in their production line and can quickly adapt to customer needs/wants.

As for MPI.
That business relationship has been long standing with both companies benefitting from it for years.

 

[capulin overdrive]

Well, I agree with many of Jay's points and even spent my money that way. Yamaha needs to listen riders like Jay, and keep working to get them on a sled.


However that doesn't stop me from being excited about the Viper, and my thinking that 180hp at altitude for near stock price with warranty is one sweet deal.


For sure count me in for a Yamahawk! Turbo R1 motor with a 13 or 14 inch track, mono ski with about a 36 inch seat height!

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

One of the great questions of our time.
Arctic cat brings production agility to the table, something that Yamaha really isn't known for. They can and do implement changes rapidly in their production line and can quickly adapt to customer needs/wants.

As for MPI.
That business relationship has been long standing with both companies benefitting from it for years.

I agree and perhaps in the bigger picture Yamaha ultimately has the least risk in the 3 way marriage.... Especially when it comes to tooling, production, parts & inventory. I guess we will have to see how the crow fly's in the future and how well the new Yamaha does in the market place. As we have already discussed sales = $$$$ and if goals aren't met I'm sure there will be changes forth coming.

As in any business plan there's plan A, B & C.

DPG

 

[Drifter]

How much is way more?


Good deals on both brands might equal to the full 2 grand more on new sleds? With snow check prices somebody came up with the turbo being a grand more on Yamacat vs Poo where they checked.

I cant remember exact numbers but a Yamaha with $2000 turbo was priced competitively with a AC 9000. MSRP on a 9000 is $17400 plus tax. MSRP on a Polaris PRO RMK is $14000 plus tax. Roughly a 3500 difference. We pay a lot of money for a new sled in Canada. The new skidoo 174 was over 17000 out the door.

 

[christopher]

Ouch


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2 pro.

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

With a turbo only costing $2000 extra at snow check doesn't that knock the wind out sails of the 3rd party guy who is selling turbos at $5000 ?

DPG

 

[snowmobiler]

I dont think you have to have light weight to get nimble. I remember back when I picked up my 09 Summit in the fall of 08. I thought I had it all with the lightest weight mountain sled and best 800 at the time ( in my opinion ). First ride I flew down the wooped out trail and thought this is pretty nice. Then came to the first real hill and shot right up with no problem. Next was a hill covered in trees and deep snow. Played in there for about half an hour and thought what the heck is wrong with this thing. Did not side hill well and was hard to manuver. Couple rides later I got to ride a 09 Dragon. Had almost 50 lbs compared to my sled and the engine didnt feel like it had near the same torque. But it handled much better in the tech ridding. Fred

09 xp 521 wet vs the viper at 641.thats like strapping on twelve 10 pound bags of potatoes

 

[fc8464]

Definitly a big difference. Was just making a piont that geomitry is just as important as weight and power.

I think the numbers for the Viper are back words, Should be 614 not 641

 

[BigFish BC]

With a turbo only costing $2000 extra at snow check doesn't that knock the wind out sails of the 3rd party guy who is selling turbos at $5000 ?

DPG

it will a bit but there is no comparing a 2000$ turbo kit to a 5000$ kit, for the guys that have been turboing 4 strokes for a few years, will still opt for the good kit.but the yamaha turbo option will bring new people that would have never bought a turbo kit.

 

[BigFish BC]

Wouldn't be much of a "discussion forum" is someone posted a question and everyone agreed...would it?

i have no problem with discussion,but when people say stuff like,well i have a friend that had one & he said it sucks so it sucks, or its a 100lbs heavier how would you know it hasnt been released yet.none of this is discussion its assumption or just a made up opinion to make people feel better about what they ride.the funny thing is i havnt read one thing on all the positives of the viper from you guys & if you would have rode one you would know its a big step forward for 4s.

 

[stingray719]

09 xp 521 wet vs the viper at 641.thats like strapping on twelve 10 pound bags of potatoes

Here ya go another idiot spouting crap. scroll up the threads to find the Viper with two gallons of gas at 558 pounds, that is if you are smart enough to be able to do that.

My gawd guys at least try to make it sound like you know what you are talking about.

 

[christopher]

the funny thing is i havnt read one thing on all the positives of the viper from you guys & if you would have rode one you would know its a big step forward for 4s.

Oh I think we have had a PILE OF THREADS singing the praises of the new Viper and how it is putting Yamaha back in the game for the first time in YEARS.

There are plenty of Viper enthusiasts here on SnoWest, and quite a few of us that have spoken with our Wallets and BOUGHT NEW VIPERS to prove it.

Its the old saying.

 

[stingray719]

wow 3 pages of 2s guys telling everybody why 4s suck,please been riding them since 05.never have i ever not gone were everybody else goes,if you cant ride them thats great not eveybody can.i have never not had fun on my sled stuck or not.last but not least who cares if a non turboed 4s wont keep up with a 2s,they are different motors,4s work better with a turbo than a 2s.would love too know how many hours all you so called experts have on a viper,you can assume all you want but thats all it is.it just amazes me how some guys will make $hit up just to make one brand look better than another,all brands are making some of the best sleds we have ever had,pick the one you like & ride it & stop worrying about what i ride.

I know this wasn't directed at me but thought I would asnwer anyways. See my post on page 1 of this thread, we have alot of miles on an XTX modified to be an MTX Viper. Rides and drives just like an M8 except for 4 stroke torque. M8 more fun if you have high speed areas (which we don't often do we are more trees and boondocking) and Viper is more fun slamming around in the hills and trees.

Ride one before making absolute assunptions. Opinions are great but please phrase them as such so you don't look stupid (like a Viper weighs 641 pounds).

Please also note original Vipers had clutch issues and blew belts, I am sure this will be fixed by Yamaha before 2015 release but if not I posted the fix in another thread if you search for my username.

Give me 10k for a 2014 M8 like new with less than 1000 miles on it and I am buying a 2015 MTX Viper..............................

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

it will a bit but there is no comparing a 2000$ turbo kit to a 5000$ kit, for the guys that have been turboing 4 strokes for a few years, will still opt for the good kit.but the yamaha turbo option will bring new people that would have never bought a turbo kit.

I agree, however having a factory warranty on a $2000 kit my well be worth it compared to a 3rd party $5000 kit that leaves you high & dry when problems occur.

DPG

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

I know this wasn't directed at me but thought I would asnwer anyways. See my post on page 1 of this thread, we have alot of miles on an XTX modified to be an MTX Viper. Rides and drives just like an M8 except for 4 stroke torque. M8 more fun if you have high speed areas (which we don't often do we are more trees and boondocking) and Viper is more fun slamming around in the hills and trees.

Ride one before making absolute assunptions. Opinions are great but please phrase them as such so you don't look stupid (like a Viper weighs 641 pounds).

Please also note original Vipers had clutch issues and blew belts, I am sure this will be fixed by Yamaha before 2015 release but if not I posted the fix in another thread if you search for my username.

Give me 10k for a 2014 M8 like new with less than 1000 miles on it and I am buying a 2015 MTX Viper..............................

Hmmm the 4S for me was fun in wide open bowls and open areas...And the 2S is more fun in trees and tight areas due them being so nimble.....When I owned my RX1, Apex & Vector turbo's thats how my experience was.

DPG

 

[Jaynelson]

i have no problem with discussion,but when people say stuff like,well i have a friend that had one & he said it sucks so it sucks, or its a 100lbs heavier how would you know it hasnt been released yet.none of this is discussion its assumption or just a made up opinion to make people feel better about what they ride.the funny thing is i havnt read one thing on all the positives of the viper from you guys & if you would have rode one you would know its a big step forward for 4s.

My first post in this thread blatantly stated that it is a big step forward for the 4 Stroke guys. All subsequent posts were explaining why it isn't a big enough step to woo 2-stroke riders en mass based on facts and experience. I don't need to ride a heavier Proclimb with less hp to know that it won't knock my socks off. I bet it rides GREAT for what it is, but there is nothing revolutionary in the recipe. If it rides as good as an M8, that's fantastic! But just as Cat has been unsuccessful wooing notable numbers of Doo and Pol riders with the M8 and 1100T...the same story will ring true here. There's no reason to live in denial.

Yes, this is the first Yamaha with a "new generation" chassis. However, in the 2-stroke world, we have been riding the newest generation of chassis' since 2011. During that time, the Cat chassis started at the back of the pack for the "big 3." It has benefited from continuous improvement since 2012 to bring it up to snuff with the others. So like I said, I am theoretically willing to jump in to the 4S game (ala the bike world), but a recycled underpowered engine, mated to the least-desirable chassis in the 2S world, simply isn't enough to get perk my interest.

If you want a to have the best combo yet of 4S reliability (and boosted power potential), good handling, and as reasonable a weight as currently possible....it is CLEARLY the choice, and requires the least modifications to attain those goals.

What I want to see, is something MORE competitive in the weight department, with a nasty 160-170hp NA 4-Stroke (or factory FI), and Yamaha quality throughout (i.e. new ground-up Yamy built chassis). That's what it will take to draw large percentages of the 2S market. Otherwise, you will basically just keep recycling the same dedicated 4S buyers. And that's what it would take TODAY....so if such a sled comes out X years down the road....it will depend on how the 2S's have developed in the meantime. From my experience in the auto and bike world, I am a FIRM believer in Japanese quality, reliability, and durability....so if you think I'm a Yamaha "hater," you would be completely wrong.

 

[capulin overdrive]

I cant remember exact numbers but a Yamaha with $2000 turbo was priced competitively with a AC 9000. MSRP on a 9000 is $17400 plus tax. MSRP on a Polaris PRO RMK is $14000 plus tax. Roughly a 3500 difference. We pay a lot of money for a new sled in Canada. The new skidoo 174 was over 17000 out the door.

Viper snowcheck msrp is like 13,300 + 2000 turbo= 15,300 vs 14k for Poo.

Somebody on here priced checked the Turbo Yamaha vs Poo from their dealers, and came up with a 1000 more for the turbo.

 

[Jaynelson]

Sounds out of whack....a stock Viper 162 LE is $14,999 or SE is $14,799 right off the Canadian website. Pro 163 is $13,999 right off the CDN website.

Seems strange to get a big discount on one, and virtually no discount on the other.

 

[DITCHBANGER]

im sorry but yamaha quality is bs,sure the engine is solid but so is my can am 4s..on my nytro there were glaring issues with quality,snowchecked a new nytro based on the myth of yamaha quality and was a winter of disappointment..handwarmers,oiltank,frontend ball joints,horrible running boards,rear suspension,not to mention huge blocks of ice in nose and tunnel,plus not being able to climb hills that my 800rev would do. the viper may be better balanced,but still to heavy..when your in tight steep areas you cant defy physics,trying to recover momentum,balance,agility the 2s will always be better..the viper does have its place and is a nice looking sled,just depends what you want to do with it