850 gone down already??

[indydan]

Dan: If I remember correctly you said that you have two 850’s at your shop? Have you taken time to remove the heads from the second 850 and check the engine out as you did with the first one?

Just curious.

By the way, keep up the great work that you and your team provide and have provided thru the years.

Wax

Wax, we have not taken it apart yet but we will as soon as we get a little extra time.

I will take a video and some pictures and I will post them ( good or bad )

Thanks Wax for the kind words!

Dan

 

[ADDIE]

And the bottom line is this.... I am to old to brag.

I personally know more about the ( final finish ) on a Nicasil cylinder then Polaris, Ski Doo, Arctic Cat, Millinneum, US Chrome, Max power seal, Sunnen & Rottler .......ALL ADDED TOGETHER !

WOW! now, that is one serious ego! I guess if you believe your inflated ego, then the mic has dropped.

Surprised NASA hasn't swooped you up to run their space program.

Funny, how you also know how much others, on here, have for experience?

Unbelievable, just like your theories.

No matter how much you pat yourself on the back, there must exist an oil barrier or the engine will fail! This is not theory, it is reality. The skirt coating tells you nothing about the health of the piston.

The fact that the engines (any of them) are living, proves there is an adequate oil barrier.

Hell, some of us already have a hundred of miles on our 850's. How is that possible?

 

[kiliki]

WOW! now, that is one serious ego! I guess if you believe your inflated ego, then the mic has dropped.

Surprised NASA hasn't swooped you up to run their space program.

Funny, how you also know how much others, on here, have for experience?

Unbelievable, just like your theories.

No matter how much you pat yourself on the back, there must exist an oil barrier or the engine will fail! This is not theory, it is reality. The skirt coating tells you nothing about the health of the piston.

The fact that the engines (any of them) are living, proves there is an adequate oil barrier.

Hell, some of us already have a hundred of miles on our 850's. How is that possible?

this is a good hidden alter just look at the number of post and go to the profile and look at history. some body is HIDING!

 

[Nine2Nine]

this is a good hidden alter just look at the number of post and go to the profile and look at history. some body is HIDING!

I picked up on this at " 7 Posts " haha

 

[jptbay]

this is a good hidden alter just look at the number of post and go to the profile and look at history. some body is HIDING!

Hmmm, lurker.

 

[Spaarky]

this is a good hidden alter just look at the number of post and go to the profile and look at history. some body is HIDING!

Yeah I would guess he either works in Roseau or has a R and K in his name. I kind of figured back on one of the first posts.

 

[kanedog]

I didn't take Dan's post as egotistical at all.
He has the most experience, the best at his trade and he says this to show us that he can walk the walk.
He's just stating facts.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Wood]

this is a good hidden alter just look at the number of post and go to the profile and look at history. some body is HIDING!

It’s been awhile since we’ve seen this matchup. LOL

Be interesting to see what lasts longer...the 850 motors or the banter in this thread.

Mods on standby please...could get interesting.

 

[Devilmanak]

Ha, join date 2013, 9 total posts in the last couple of days.

 

[Prayn4snow]

Lot of fear mongering going on in here.

IndyDan knows his stuff and has a proven track record. We should listen, but gather a whole bunch more information than his 1 sled that didn't even fail, but wasn't up to his hand built standards.

The only failure I know of personally on the 850 was not top end related. He didn't make it 5 miles from the trailer. Seems a little premature to blame honing when it has not even accounted for 1 proven failure yet (if you have a top end failure on an 850 speak up, we all want info and data on it. i don't want to hear about some one you know... it has to be YOU and you gotta have proof).

Polaris offered a 4 year warranty on this bad boy. Its a freaking riot to ride. So go ride the piss out of it for 4 years and let polaris take care of it. Dont be scared to squeeze that throttle WFO. I know I have been and its been a 100 miles of smile making. Oh and for the record just shy of 10k sold in the 850 line.

I agree with Phatty. IndyDan does some great clutch machining & balancing along with some fine work on the old 800's. From 2013 to the Axys they have been "better" but still needed a durability kit unfortunately if you put miles on them. My own experience with the Axys 800 motors has been great. From bone stock sleds to different stage builds up to the 860 big bore. My problems have been limited to TPS and relays on them. Last year I rode Upper MI, WI, SD, MT, WY, ID, BC and more. Many of those time running into other Snowest'ers that have thrown a leg on one of my sleds. Most of you know I carry a ridiculous amount of tools and parts with me because I travel so much and gone so long. Ive been carrying around spare motor parts (pistons, jugs, rings, gaskets) etc to all these places. Ive never needed them on the Axys even with the stage tunes and big bores. I wish I could say the same for A-arms. I also spent a lot of time on the 850 last year, the Alpha and other experimentals. Never did we have one go down that I was around and we weren't told to "play nice" with them lol. With this said, there have been some that went down recently with no factory explanation but that is pretty few considering at least one looks like an assembly line oil line mistake. If you have a mechanical failure of any type, help everyone understand by documenting everything and take some pics if you can. Not to say we don't believe you without them, but it helps get to the bottom of problems so they can find solutions. Some of us would even like to know the things that might seem incidental to you. Example: how fresh was your 91 non ethanal or did you mix in a few gallons leftover from your lawnmower cans in the shed. Time will tell, right now I Cant wait to get some more miles on

 

[RMK-King]

It’s been awhile since we’ve seen this matchup. LOL

Be interesting to see what lasts longer...the 850 motors or the banter in this thread.

Mods on standby please...could get interesting.

I enjoy these shop talk debate threads, there is a lot of valuable info by a few veteran engine builders in here. I always like hearing each of their thoughts even if they contradict/banter each other, it has been going on for years. You can take all the info posted here and come up with your own conclusions. It will definatly be interesting to see how these engine hold up in the long run. I did a compression test on my 850 today with 125 miles on it and will check it again at the end of the season to see if there is any premature ring wear.

 

[sumtinwong]

I have yet to find some one who has received serves or parts from dan that was not 100% happy/amazed witch is important to me as all my stuff gets shipped out and I get back what I get back! so I have dug and probed asked and listened his rep and warranties are solid and workmanship is 2ed to none. I have found this to be true from my own experience now. and every bit of the peaks, "silicon carbide coated" cutting/shredding the ring VS a plateaued finishes letting it ride across makes sense

 

[CATDIESELPOWER]

Good post. Remember it was stated that "one could make the case" not that is was the case. Just throwing out some information to chew on.

These peak and valleys, we all agree are required and present in the plating. That is not up for debate.

Here is what I struggle with: The statement, by Dan, that the piston will not last 500 miles before it is shot due to the cylinder wearing the piston down. The cylinder is not wearing the piston because it does not come in direct contact with it. If it does, you have failure.

These microscopic peaks and valleys are not "grinding" on the piston. It is like pressing a straw on an 8ft tree trunk. The trunk does not care because the straw is not exerting enough pressure to have any negative effect.

The oil barrier must be present in order for the piston to survive crank rotation in the cylinder.

If the oil barrier gets compromised, the piston will seize very quickly. This is an important concept and is key to the argument.

Oil is present with all cylinder finishes. If it is not, then you are done.

Whether one hone finish retains more oil than another is the question and one that can not be proven via any visual inspection of a coating that is designed to allow for less friction during break in.

One could make the case that the piston with the most worn coating is the one that has been more successful at flattening the peaks. Not saying this is the case, but it is probable.

So, the idea that these microscopic plating peaks are destroying pistons within 500 miles or even 1000 miles is not a theory I can get on board with and is what is being presented as fact.

The piston ring is the main component to see wear and it is not aluminum. It is subjected to the most heat and the most friction of any part of the piston. It also has a very small surface area contact face.

The piston intake skirt ,where all this attention is being directed, is not near as critical to the life of the piston.

Again, the ring is the main component in play.

It is the only piece doing any "flattening" of any peaks and is the main piece actually wearing under normal operation. Inspection of the skirt only shows the thrust points on the piston.

You say the cylinder is not wearing the piston because it does not come in contact with it , correct? Then you state that it is probable that the piston with the most worn coating is the one more successful in flattening the peaks? Please explain how the piston doesn’t contact the cylinder yet the cylinder wears the coating off piston.

 

[indydan]

Shocking ! LOL ! NO it wouldn't be

WOW! now, that is one serious ego! I guess if you believe your inflated ego, then the mic has dropped.

Surprised NASA hasn't swooped you up to run their space program.

Funny, how you also know how much others, on here, have for experience?

Unbelievable, just like your theories.

No matter how much you pat yourself on the back, there must exist an oil barrier or the engine will fail! This is not theory, it is reality. The skirt coating tells you nothing about the health of the piston.

The fact that the engines (any of them) are living, proves there is an adequate oil barrier.

Hell, some of us already have a hundred of miles on our 850's. How is that possible?

Hmmmmm..... Keep reading the facts will prove you wrong

Dan

 

[indydan]

No arrogance

ADDIE

Don't confuse egotistical with experience.

Pretty sure there has not been and there will not be anyone in the near future with has much experience as I have with a power stoke hone in cylinders ranging from ...... Dirt, ATV, outboard, sleds, cars, airplanes

Back in the early 1990's we bored a lot of outboard motors..... Mainly ( V6's )....... We found a lot of the bass boat guys ( and water skiers ) would stick a piston on a fresh rebuildearly spring when the water was cold.

I saw a lot of them...... We preached warm up and break-in procedure.... ( break-in and warm up with these two type people is not going to happen,

Number one how do you warm up a motor that has unlimited amount of 33 degree water ? And both customers start from a dead stop and punch it wide open and they hold it there for a long time.

So since I figured this would never change and factory new motors can take this abuse without sticking a piston why can't mine ?

I called Sunnenand explained my problem..... They said no problem....... ( You need to plateau finish the cylinder ) I ask WHAT ?

They explained ...... With a cast iron bore you just need our plateau brushes. They said the razor sharp peaks our causing to much heat on ring faces and the piston can't get rid of the heat.

If you plateau them the heat will be reduced and the problem will go away.

I ordered the brushes the rest is history.....I never stuck another motor with a cast iron bore.

I used these same brushes in all my silicon carbide cylinders...... Guess what ( they didn't work at all ) and thy wore out the silicon carbide destroyed the brushes...... The peaks literally ate the brushes.

And on a side note...... Losing 1/4 million dollars in warranty does not breed egotistical arrogance.


It creates humbleness........ And following thru and surviving it builds a base of customers so strong you earn the right to feel proud of what you do everyday.

Not arrogant.

When I put my preseason order in early spring for Polaris OEM motor parts & gaskets ( no crank parts ) just pistons and gaskets it was some where around $80,000 grand


I believe ( I ride sitting bull ) ordered $1200 gaskets for the year.

Not arrogance, just a by product of a good strong customer base.

Sorry if if that's how I come off...... When it comes the plated cylinder finish I have experience by the train load.

And no single person can match it..... Or company for that matter.

If you just spew crap all day with no history or warranty to back it your just part of a problem that only Indy Specialty has solved.

How can I be so sure......... Because I did it..... Finish with a sizing ripping shoe and the Pistons can't make it a 1000 miles in the mountains ....... Put a long flat plateau finish on a plated cylinder and no more come backs.

Sounds simple........ It took a solid 2 years of experimenting to get a cylinder to look and work like ours do now.

I lived it & still live it..... Everyone else here claiming they are experts are just big talkers

I personally have honed north of 14,000 cylinders and Indy Specialty has honed just under 30,000 since 1984

My guess is ADDIE hasn't ever honed a cylinder........and if he has the number are well under 500 holes.

And my guess is that if he has the hone sum.... ( they Had springs or balls ) which would then void all honing experience.


Dan

 

[diamonddave]

Haha. It’s definitely not the drop in kit man.

There’s not enough anger pouring out in the words and the infamous .... ...... ... ..... after each sentence......

Haha.

 

[GoBigParts]

Don't take what I said the wrong way. I do not want to speak for him, he just loves to ride and have people to ride with. I am by far no superstar. He takes a lot of different people riding. Only prerequisite I have heard, is you need to be a good person.

He told me last year "I taught my grandkids how to ride, I can teach you".... LMAO.

Fact is, Tony and his wife Sandy are about the nicest people you will ever meet. Open their home and cabin to sledders. What they have done for snowmobiling in the area. I feel fortunate to have him as a friend, riding partner, and mentor.

Cool, I'm sure I could learn a few things then.

 

[GoBigParts]

Such a great question....... ( I was speed reading to catch up and I saw this )

Quote -
...that said. WHY would this logic not transfer to the cylinders? Simply too time consuming to get the finish as you describe? It seems strange that some internal engine components would be built to high standards and others not. End quote.

My God my friend this is perfect......

Your question about the OE piston being the best..... Because the factory has a bigger budget.

Yes Yes Yes ! When the desk engineers can see the importance on a CAD model on Solidworks and they run all the stats thru the system ( they can wrap their heads around that ). The OEM will spend staggering amounts on key items in key places...... ( Most places when it comes to the motors )

Never forget the power of corporate bean counter.

It's isn't that they shorted the cylinder quality.... Or plating quality, or the price of the hone they use.

Jay..... It's what they do not know where the trouble starts.

And with all respect to ADDIE and many others who truely believe what they know to be true in their own minds relative to this thread.

I Dan Turen Owner of Indy Specialty is the only person here on this thread that has personally honed all types of cylinders...... Starting in 1973 in my dads sled shop.

And professionally honing since 1986 for a daily living.

I know I have honed more cylinders, and seen more failed pistons and more perfect looking Pistons they anyone on this forum.

And I have learned with my own personal wallet what works and what doesn't.

And the bottom line is this.... I am to old to brag.

I personally know more about the ( final finish ) on a Nicasil cylinder then Polaris, Ski Doo, Arctic Cat, Millinneum, US Chrome, Max power seal, Sunnen & Rottler .......ALL ADDED TOGETHER !

And you want to know why I know..... Because I am the only one here that has

#1 - offered a 3 year warranty on a complete motor with a nicasil cylinder
#2 - has done it wrong and saw the wrath of ruined Pistons
#3 - has suffered a 1/4 million dollar loss in warranty ( by a single person small business ) and I am still here to talk about it.
#4 - solved the problem with my own to hands and my own brain. ( Not a CAD program that says this is right and this is wrong ) info loaded in by people that don't know about final finish Niicasil honing.

Not with what science says either.

Jay ... the reason Polaris doesn't do it better is because of the exact reason what ADDIE is saying...... They really don't think it matters. ( they all have there theories ). Mine is not theory. It's field proven by my wallet.

And to try and keep it short.

All the tech info that's getting throw around here on oil retention ( peaks and valleys ) porous plating holding oil.

All is well and good and most of it is all true.... ( and I am sure many are impressed with facts stated by ADDIE ) and I had been taught all that stuff years ago by the old timers.... And Sunnen preached it.

When it comes to plated silicon carbide they are all wrong.

Peaks and valleys were mentioned ( deadly accurate ) description

Let's paint a picture again.

Imagine if you will ..... Cooke City mountain range ( to keep things relatable )

Let's take a 10,000 foot mountain ( shaped like a perfect triangle )

Now line up 1000 mountains ( triangles side by side. ) all push together so they are touching each other.

What do you see ? You should see about 1000 razor sharp peaks and about 998
Valleys...... Got that picture in your heads ?

Now In vision a Polaris cylinder sitting on your work bench upright ....sawed in 1/2 thru the center

Now take one 1/2 and set it on the bench side ways..... With the the round bore sitting there like a 1/2 pipe on its side.

Ok...look at the triangles and the look at the cylinder.

The cylinder honing ( cross hatch ) looks like triangles under a microscope as previously stated ( which is correct ).

Now let's go back to the 1000 triangles.... In vision a piston assembly sitting on its side on top of the triangles.

Now imagine that piston going back and forth 140 times per second on those razor sharp peaks.....

Back in the old days of cast Iron cylinder..the rings quickly wore the razor sharp peaks down..... And at the same time wore the rings round to match.

Let's just say that for the sake of painting a picture.... Now the 10,000 triangles are wore down to 5000 feet.

What do you see now ? You see a flat spot followed by ( upside down triangle ) in other words you see a valley.

And this look repairs about 1000 times..... The flat spots you see cause by ring wear are no longer razor sharp peaks ( or mountain tops ) they are ( Plateaus )

These plateaus are vital to long engine life. ( we need the plateaus and valleys in a cast iron bore ) plateaus from ring surface to ride on and valleys to hold oil.

Now the silicon carbide cylinder In vision the exact same example.

The ring cannot cut silicon carbide razor sharp peaks .... ADDIE ( and tell me this how much oil do you think can sit on top of a razor sharp tip ?

This is where desk jockeys and pencil pushers loose their footing.... You have to live in the trenches to figure this stuff out.

This where all the science and theories fall apart.

All the oil that you talk about that is in a area that cannot adaqutely protect the ring & piston.

There is no porousness on a razor sharp peak.... All the porosness is on the side of the mountain and all the oil in the valley cannot do much to help until a plateau is created.

And I am here to tell you the only thing that can give you a good plateau in a silicon carbide cylinder is a really good hone with multiple finishing steps.

The sizing shoe only rips and tears..... Plated cylinder have to be plateaued finished by a hone with fine diamond.

Rings can't flatten the peaks far enough before they are destroyed.

There is no argument for this I lived it you guys just talk the talk.

I would like to see what the so called cylinder honing experts and oil experts would say if the warranty was paid in in the equity in there homes....

And when that's gone.... and you refi your home to replace people's wasted pistons and rings and cylinders you just might start to leave the theories and so called experts behind and go searching for the real fix.

I saw more then one 850 cylinder....... As of today I have seen 12 of them.

The finish is not good on any of them......

my guess is this...The number of 850's that will make the 4 year warranty will be slim.

Most will be in the Midwest........ Where there is no snow.

No sense talking anymore...... I know what I know and the expert at Polaris know what they think they know.


I sell about 250 Polaris motors per season since 2008

Then add in all the other shops out there....

So for those who say Polaris has it all figured out ( take those numbers and think about it a little )

My shop takes a lot heat off the phones at Polaris.

I have not read past Jays post.

Not mush more to say other then let's just see who right and who's wrong.

I am going to start a list of every 850 cylinder that rolls thru this shop for honing.

Time will tell who knows what about honing finishes on plated cylinders.

Dan

This does clear some basic questions I had up. Makes sense.

 

[Big10inch]

WOW! now, that is one serious ego! I guess if you believe your inflated ego, then the mic has dropped.

Surprised NASA hasn't swooped you up to run their space program.

Funny, how you also know how much others, on here, have for experience?

Unbelievable, just like your theories.

No matter how much you pat yourself on the back, there must exist an oil barrier or the engine will fail! This is not theory, it is reality. The skirt coating tells you nothing about the health of the piston.

The fact that the engines (any of them) are living, proves there is an adequate oil barrier.

Hell, some of us already have a hundred of miles on our 850's. How is that possible?

,,,and so begins the name calling. This is what happens when you start to lose the argument and have no more facts or experiences to support your contentions.


Meanwhile... Dan continues to answer questions respectfully, providing facts, explanations and real world experiences.

 

[Mafesto]

I did a compression test on my 850 today with 125 miles on it and will check it again at the end of the season to see if there is any premature ring wear.

Add a leak down test to that.
It may show a problem before a compression test.

Side note, as busy as Dan is, I appreciate the time he is sharing with us in this thread.
Lord knows a busy business man has a way more profitable way to spend his time.