Yep, I agree!!!
850 gone down already??
- Thread starter ANTHONY11
- Start date
Yep, I agree!!!
Indy Dan, I'm wondering what is wrong with millennium's mirror finish hone? I had really good luck with it after learning the hard way how important cylinder honing is for the longevity of the Polaris CFI 800 engines.
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Thank you Phatty! It is a freaking riot to ride. My wife has NEVER said she loved a sled...any sled including her 17 AXYS and she said it....I LOVE this sled. I've never seen her want to keep playing and exploring the terrain like she did first day on the 850. She is stoked to ride now and said it did not tire her out.
We are going to have a lot of fun on these sleds!!!
Your probably right.
Next time your in Cooke give me a call and we can ride for a few days.
I usually ride 3500-5000 miles a year. Last season was just shy of 4100. All in Cooke and the Beartooth.
Average 800 engine life 800 miles. Basic 2018 failures are rings or locating pins. Previous failures included piston skirts and PTO shaft breakage at the wheel.
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Is your ex aux bridge port cracked?
Having ridden with Tony (TRS) a fair bit....
I can tell you what the biggest difference is and it is easily verifiable with Digital Wrench-- TPS history. I have seen his TPS history on his sleds. More 80-100% throttle position than anyone else's TPS history I have ever seen.
Also, more miles than most. Typically you have "hard" riders or mileage riders. He is a unique combination of both. He is also meticulous on maintenance and warm up, his sleds are in a heated shop at night.
If you ever have the opportunity to ride with him, I highly recommend it.
He would never mention it, but I will-- bring your "A" game.
I wouldn't recommend partying the night before.
Good post. Remember it was stated that "one could make the case" not that is was the case. Just throwing out some information to chew on.
These peak and valleys, we all agree are required and present in the plating. That is not up for debate.
Here is what I struggle with: The statement, by Dan, that the piston will not last 500 miles before it is shot due to the cylinder wearing the piston down. The cylinder is not wearing the piston because it does not come in direct contact with it. If it does, you have failure.
These microscopic peaks and valleys are not "grinding" on the piston. It is like pressing a straw on an 8ft tree trunk. The trunk does not care because the straw is not exerting enough pressure to have any negative effect.
The oil barrier must be present in order for the piston to survive crank rotation in the cylinder.
If the oil barrier gets compromised, the piston will seize very quickly. This is an important concept and is key to the argument.
Oil is present with all cylinder finishes. If it is not, then you are done.
Whether one hone finish retains more oil than another is the question and one that can not be proven via any visual inspection of a coating that is designed to allow for less friction during break in.
One could make the case that the piston with the most worn coating is the one that has been more successful at flattening the peaks. Not saying this is the case, but it is probable.
So, the idea that these microscopic plating peaks are destroying pistons within 500 miles or even 1000 miles is not a theory I can get on board with and is what is being presented as fact.
The piston ring is the main component to see wear and it is not aluminum. It is subjected to the most heat and the most friction of any part of the piston. It also has a very small surface area contact face.
The piston intake skirt ,where all this attention is being directed, is not near as critical to the life of the piston.
Again, the ring is the main component in play.
It is the only piece doing any "flattening" of any peaks and is the main piece actually wearing under normal operation. Inspection of the skirt only shows the thrust points on the piston.
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Well this thread is bound to cause some anxiety in new 850 owners... I know Indy Dan is a smart guy and has tons of experience and real world knowledge. I also know the Polaris engineers are sharp guys and have a large spectrum of knowledge and experience from different applications that can and are applied in their work. Try to keep things in perspective that Indy Dan tore apart his motor, not 1000, so I’m with JJ when he says remember it’s a sample size of 1 out of several thousand. Could be tied to a production date or lot number, who knows. Time will tell what the real story is.
I was lucky enough to ride these 850s back in January and talk with the engineers. The lead on the project was younger guy but came with experience working for Renault on their F1 engines (if my memory serves me right anyway) and has been working on this since the start, not picking up the project where someone else left off. Make no mistake, these guys love the products they design and aren’t doing it halfassed to meet a project deadline. All the engineers were excited about it and the others I know that tested them were just as excited about them. I trust them when they said they have been testing this motor for years, even prior to the release of the 800HO. Polaris chose to back this motor with a 4yr warranty and we chose to take the leap on the new 850. Might as well ride it like you stole it and put it to the test. Time will tell
... so keep calm and squeeze that throttle
I was lucky enough to ride these 850s back in January and talk with the engineers. The lead on the project was younger guy but came with experience working for Renault on their F1 engines (if my memory serves me right anyway) and has been working on this since the start, not picking up the project where someone else left off. Make no mistake, these guys love the products they design and aren’t doing it halfassed to meet a project deadline. All the engineers were excited about it and the others I know that tested them were just as excited about them. I trust them when they said they have been testing this motor for years, even prior to the release of the 800HO. Polaris chose to back this motor with a 4yr warranty and we chose to take the leap on the new 850. Might as well ride it like you stole it and put it to the test. Time will tell
... so keep calm and squeeze that throttleAll the engineers were excited about it and the others I know that tested them were just as excited about them. I trust them when they said they have been testing this motor for years, even prior to the release of the 800HO. Polaris chose to back this motor with a 4yr warranty and we chose to take the leap on the new 850.
There is a huge difference between "x" amount of test motors and mass produced motors.
There is a huge difference between "x" amount of test motors and mass produced motors.
S
Spaarky
Well-known member
Best thing you guys that are scratching your head wondering why Tony goes through so many engines is to jump in the truck and go ride with him.
I have had the PRIVELAGE of riding with him the last 2-3 years. He is light years beyond my skill set, if I ride there a week, it takes me 2 weeks to recover. I work out almost daily(all year) to try and keep up with him.
I hate to say it, but most people think they ride hard. Riding with Tony has been the most challenging and fun thing I have ever done. The guys I have rode with in the past, he makes them look like a stroll through the mall. He knows the area, heck he cut the trails. Once the sleds are warm, it is wide open all day. That is NO exaggeration. Up hills, through the trees, down drainages, and on his famous tours. ITS TO THE PIN!! A tank of gas a day.... days really are not that long, unless we go after a second tank of gas. Average day in 5 hours you can be through a tank of fuel. Maybe less.
I am sure he is tired of me on the radio.... "where did you go". The only thing I can follow is the snow clouds he kicks up. Holy crap it is a lot of fun though!!!!!!!
IF POLARIS WANTS TO TEST A MOTOR...….. they need to send it to him.
Who else has "no seat sundays"????? hahahahahahahahaha
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Agreed. And there is a huge difference between one motor off a production line and the 9999 others out there. That’s why I said maybe it’s a one off thing, maybe a bad batch, who knows. Time will tell. Regardless, I spent my money based on my experience and the talks with the engineers. The warranty is there and a 850 is sitting in my garage. Might as well ride it like it was designed to be ridden and time will tell the full story of the 2019 850.
He probably wouldn't want to ride with me then. I doubt my skills are that great. Love riding the deep powder and riding out west but there are certainly better riders out there than me. I still give it a go though. Thats awesome. Sounds like he has been riding the area a long time.
J
Jaynelson
Well-known member
I have no doubt that's all 100% true, and I have no doubt he rides harder than me....no pride involved whatsoever. I am a little floored if he rides THAT much harder than my entire cross section of riders to only get 800 miles out of an Axys motor.
SO...if that is the only variable in play (hard riding)....I would say the general public doesn't need to worry about his findings, because he is an anomaly. Would make for a great product tester, yes.
We have a guy who puts on 3,000+ very hard miles per year and breaks everything. Everything. He is one of the blown motors...but even his lasted to nearly 3,000 miles (not km). So to cut that in 3 is just wild...and not something the rest of us need to worry about.
S
Spaarky
Well-known member
Don't take what I said the wrong way. I do not want to speak for him, he just loves to ride and have people to ride with. I am by far no superstar. He takes a lot of different people riding. Only prerequisite I have heard, is you need to be a good person.
He told me last year "I taught my grandkids how to ride, I can teach you".... LMAO.
Fact is, Tony and his wife Sandy are about the nicest people you will ever meet. Open their home and cabin to sledders. What they have done for snowmobiling in the area. I feel fortunate to have him as a friend, riding partner, and mentor.
I had to stop catch up reading when I hit this post.
Such a great question....... ( I was speed reading to catch up and I saw this )
Quote -
...that said. WHY would this logic not transfer to the cylinders? Simply too time consuming to get the finish as you describe? It seems strange that some internal engine components would be built to high standards and others not. End quote.
My God my friend this is perfect......
Your question about the OE piston being the best..... Because the factory has a bigger budget.
Yes Yes Yes ! When the desk engineers can see the importance on a CAD model on Solidworks and they run all the stats thru the system ( they can wrap their heads around that ). The OEM will spend staggering amounts on key items in key places...... ( Most places when it comes to the motors )
Never forget the power of corporate bean counter.
It's isn't that they shorted the cylinder quality.... Or plating quality, or the price of the hone they use.
Jay..... It's what they do not know where the trouble starts.
And with all respect to ADDIE and many others who truely believe what they know to be true in their own minds relative to this thread.
I Dan Turen Owner of Indy Specialty is the only person here on this thread that has personally honed all types of cylinders...... Starting in 1973 in my dads sled shop.
And professionally honing since 1986 for a daily living.
I know I have honed more cylinders, and seen more failed pistons and more perfect looking Pistons they anyone on this forum.
And I have learned with my own personal wallet what works and what doesn't.
And the bottom line is this.... I am to old to brag.
I personally know more about the ( final finish ) on a Nicasil cylinder then Polaris, Ski Doo, Arctic Cat, Millinneum, US Chrome, Max power seal, Sunnen & Rottler .......ALL ADDED TOGETHER !
And you want to know why I know..... Because I am the only one here that has
#1 - offered a 3 year warranty on a complete motor with a nicasil cylinder
#2 - has done it wrong and saw the wrath of ruined Pistons
#3 - has suffered a 1/4 million dollar loss in warranty ( by a single person small business ) and I am still here to talk about it.
#4 - solved the problem with my own to hands and my own brain. ( Not a CAD program that says this is right and this is wrong ) info loaded in by people that don't know about final finish Niicasil honing.
Not with what science says either.
Jay ... the reason Polaris doesn't do it better is because of the exact reason what ADDIE is saying...... They really don't think it matters. ( they all have there theories ). Mine is not theory. It's field proven by my wallet.
And to try and keep it short.
All the tech info that's getting throw around here on oil retention ( peaks and valleys ) porous plating holding oil.
All is well and good and most of it is all true.... ( and I am sure many are impressed with facts stated by ADDIE ) and I had been taught all that stuff years ago by the old timers.... And Sunnen preached it.
When it comes to plated silicon carbide they are all wrong.
Peaks and valleys were mentioned ( deadly accurate ) description
Let's paint a picture again.
Imagine if you will ..... Cooke City mountain range ( to keep things relatable )
Let's take a 10,000 foot mountain ( shaped like a perfect triangle )
Now line up 1000 mountains ( triangles side by side. ) all push together so they are touching each other.
What do you see ? You should see about 1000 razor sharp peaks and about 998
Valleys...... Got that picture in your heads ?
Now In vision a Polaris cylinder sitting on your work bench upright ....sawed in 1/2 thru the center
Now take one 1/2 and set it on the bench side ways..... With the the round bore sitting there like a 1/2 pipe on its side.
Ok...look at the triangles and the look at the cylinder.
The cylinder honing ( cross hatch ) looks like triangles under a microscope as previously stated ( which is correct ).
Now let's go back to the 1000 triangles.... In vision a piston assembly sitting on its side on top of the triangles.
Now imagine that piston going back and forth 140 times per second on those razor sharp peaks.....
Back in the old days of cast Iron cylinder..the rings quickly wore the razor sharp peaks down..... And at the same time wore the rings round to match.
Let's just say that for the sake of painting a picture.... Now the 10,000 triangles are wore down to 5000 feet.
What do you see now ? You see a flat spot followed by ( upside down triangle ) in other words you see a valley.
And this look repairs about 1000 times..... The flat spots you see cause by ring wear are no longer razor sharp peaks ( or mountain tops ) they are ( Plateaus )
These plateaus are vital to long engine life. ( we need the plateaus and valleys in a cast iron bore ) plateaus from ring surface to ride on and valleys to hold oil.
Now the silicon carbide cylinder In vision the exact same example.
The ring cannot cut silicon carbide razor sharp peaks .... ADDIE ( and tell me this how much oil do you think can sit on top of a razor sharp tip ?
This is where desk jockeys and pencil pushers loose their footing.... You have to live in the trenches to figure this stuff out.
This where all the science and theories fall apart.
All the oil that you talk about that is in a area that cannot adaqutely protect the ring & piston.
There is no porousness on a razor sharp peak.... All the porosness is on the side of the mountain and all the oil in the valley cannot do much to help until a plateau is created.
And I am here to tell you the only thing that can give you a good plateau in a silicon carbide cylinder is a really good hone with multiple finishing steps.
The sizing shoe only rips and tears..... Plated cylinder have to be plateaued finished by a hone with fine diamond.
Rings can't flatten the peaks far enough before they are destroyed.
There is no argument for this I lived it you guys just talk the talk.
I would like to see what the so called cylinder honing experts and oil experts would say if the warranty was paid in in the equity in there homes....
And when that's gone.... and you refi your home to replace people's wasted pistons and rings and cylinders you just might start to leave the theories and so called experts behind and go searching for the real fix.
I saw more then one 850 cylinder....... As of today I have seen 12 of them.
The finish is not good on any of them......
my guess is this...The number of 850's that will make the 4 year warranty will be slim.
Most will be in the Midwest........ Where there is no snow.
No sense talking anymore...... I know what I know and the expert at Polaris know what they think they know.
I sell about 250 Polaris motors per season since 2008
Then add in all the other shops out there....
So for those who say Polaris has it all figured out ( take those numbers and think about it a little )
My shop takes a lot heat off the phones at Polaris.
I have not read past Jays post.
Not mush more to say other then let's just see who right and who's wrong.
I am going to start a list of every 850 cylinder that rolls thru this shop for honing.
Time will tell who knows what about honing finishes on plated cylinders.
Dan
Such a great question....... ( I was speed reading to catch up and I saw this )
Quote -
...that said. WHY would this logic not transfer to the cylinders? Simply too time consuming to get the finish as you describe? It seems strange that some internal engine components would be built to high standards and others not. End quote.
My God my friend this is perfect......
Your question about the OE piston being the best..... Because the factory has a bigger budget.
Yes Yes Yes ! When the desk engineers can see the importance on a CAD model on Solidworks and they run all the stats thru the system ( they can wrap their heads around that ). The OEM will spend staggering amounts on key items in key places...... ( Most places when it comes to the motors )
Never forget the power of corporate bean counter.
It's isn't that they shorted the cylinder quality.... Or plating quality, or the price of the hone they use.
Jay..... It's what they do not know where the trouble starts.
And with all respect to ADDIE and many others who truely believe what they know to be true in their own minds relative to this thread.
I Dan Turen Owner of Indy Specialty is the only person here on this thread that has personally honed all types of cylinders...... Starting in 1973 in my dads sled shop.
And professionally honing since 1986 for a daily living.
I know I have honed more cylinders, and seen more failed pistons and more perfect looking Pistons they anyone on this forum.
And I have learned with my own personal wallet what works and what doesn't.
And the bottom line is this.... I am to old to brag.
I personally know more about the ( final finish ) on a Nicasil cylinder then Polaris, Ski Doo, Arctic Cat, Millinneum, US Chrome, Max power seal, Sunnen & Rottler .......ALL ADDED TOGETHER !
And you want to know why I know..... Because I am the only one here that has
#1 - offered a 3 year warranty on a complete motor with a nicasil cylinder
#2 - has done it wrong and saw the wrath of ruined Pistons
#3 - has suffered a 1/4 million dollar loss in warranty ( by a single person small business ) and I am still here to talk about it.
#4 - solved the problem with my own to hands and my own brain. ( Not a CAD program that says this is right and this is wrong ) info loaded in by people that don't know about final finish Niicasil honing.
Not with what science says either.
Jay ... the reason Polaris doesn't do it better is because of the exact reason what ADDIE is saying...... They really don't think it matters. ( they all have there theories ). Mine is not theory. It's field proven by my wallet.
And to try and keep it short.
All the tech info that's getting throw around here on oil retention ( peaks and valleys ) porous plating holding oil.
All is well and good and most of it is all true.... ( and I am sure many are impressed with facts stated by ADDIE ) and I had been taught all that stuff years ago by the old timers.... And Sunnen preached it.
When it comes to plated silicon carbide they are all wrong.
Peaks and valleys were mentioned ( deadly accurate ) description
Let's paint a picture again.
Imagine if you will ..... Cooke City mountain range ( to keep things relatable )
Let's take a 10,000 foot mountain ( shaped like a perfect triangle )
Now line up 1000 mountains ( triangles side by side. ) all push together so they are touching each other.
What do you see ? You should see about 1000 razor sharp peaks and about 998
Valleys...... Got that picture in your heads ?
Now In vision a Polaris cylinder sitting on your work bench upright ....sawed in 1/2 thru the center
Now take one 1/2 and set it on the bench side ways..... With the the round bore sitting there like a 1/2 pipe on its side.
Ok...look at the triangles and the look at the cylinder.
The cylinder honing ( cross hatch ) looks like triangles under a microscope as previously stated ( which is correct ).
Now let's go back to the 1000 triangles.... In vision a piston assembly sitting on its side on top of the triangles.
Now imagine that piston going back and forth 140 times per second on those razor sharp peaks.....
Back in the old days of cast Iron cylinder..the rings quickly wore the razor sharp peaks down..... And at the same time wore the rings round to match.
Let's just say that for the sake of painting a picture.... Now the 10,000 triangles are wore down to 5000 feet.
What do you see now ? You see a flat spot followed by ( upside down triangle ) in other words you see a valley.
And this look repairs about 1000 times..... The flat spots you see cause by ring wear are no longer razor sharp peaks ( or mountain tops ) they are ( Plateaus )
These plateaus are vital to long engine life. ( we need the plateaus and valleys in a cast iron bore ) plateaus from ring surface to ride on and valleys to hold oil.
Now the silicon carbide cylinder In vision the exact same example.
The ring cannot cut silicon carbide razor sharp peaks .... ADDIE ( and tell me this how much oil do you think can sit on top of a razor sharp tip ?
This is where desk jockeys and pencil pushers loose their footing.... You have to live in the trenches to figure this stuff out.
This where all the science and theories fall apart.
All the oil that you talk about that is in a area that cannot adaqutely protect the ring & piston.
There is no porousness on a razor sharp peak.... All the porosness is on the side of the mountain and all the oil in the valley cannot do much to help until a plateau is created.
And I am here to tell you the only thing that can give you a good plateau in a silicon carbide cylinder is a really good hone with multiple finishing steps.
The sizing shoe only rips and tears..... Plated cylinder have to be plateaued finished by a hone with fine diamond.
Rings can't flatten the peaks far enough before they are destroyed.
There is no argument for this I lived it you guys just talk the talk.
I would like to see what the so called cylinder honing experts and oil experts would say if the warranty was paid in in the equity in there homes....
And when that's gone.... and you refi your home to replace people's wasted pistons and rings and cylinders you just might start to leave the theories and so called experts behind and go searching for the real fix.
I saw more then one 850 cylinder....... As of today I have seen 12 of them.
The finish is not good on any of them......
my guess is this...The number of 850's that will make the 4 year warranty will be slim.
Most will be in the Midwest........ Where there is no snow.
No sense talking anymore...... I know what I know and the expert at Polaris know what they think they know.
I sell about 250 Polaris motors per season since 2008
Then add in all the other shops out there....
So for those who say Polaris has it all figured out ( take those numbers and think about it a little )
My shop takes a lot heat off the phones at Polaris.
I have not read past Jays post.
Not mush more to say other then let's just see who right and who's wrong.
I am going to start a list of every 850 cylinder that rolls thru this shop for honing.
Time will tell who knows what about honing finishes on plated cylinders.
Dan
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Side note
Got a call today from a customer that wanted to sell his new 850
He said 2 of his buddies went to Togwatee this week end both 850 locked up In under 30 miles.
Now this can't be cylinder finish..... But something is way wrong.
This post is not a one off deal.... We have at least 8 reported down
Pictures of 3 set of Pistons ...... Either no oil or the cylinder finish killed them 3
Time will tell.
I want to believe this is all not true.
Dan
Got a call today from a customer that wanted to sell his new 850
He said 2 of his buddies went to Togwatee this week end both 850 locked up In under 30 miles.
Now this can't be cylinder finish..... But something is way wrong.
This post is not a one off deal.... We have at least 8 reported down
Pictures of 3 set of Pistons ...... Either no oil or the cylinder finish killed them 3
Time will tell.
I want to believe this is all not true.
Dan
Dan: If I remember correctly you said that you have two 850’s at your shop? Have you taken time to remove the heads from the second 850 and check the engine out as you did with the first one?
Just curious.
By the way, keep up the great work that you and your team provide and have provided thru the years.
Wax
Just curious.
By the way, keep up the great work that you and your team provide and have provided thru the years.
Wax
