S
snowmobiler
Well-known member
does Dan reply on breaks and lunch time?.its 10 am in minnysota
850 gone down already??
- Thread starter ANTHONY11
- Start date
J
JJ_0909
ACCOUNT CLOSED
I get ID is the man when it comes to motor building, however I do think his narrative toward dealers is a bit short sited.
All the sled manufacturers are caught in a really challenging environment. Pricing really matters, but so too does performance. We all want 200 horse 300lbs machines that last 20 years. And we want them at $9000.
The compromise we've arrived at is a $10-14K machine that is so much more capable than a sled even 10 years ago its silly.
The downside is, margins get squeezed. I can say this honestly as I follow PII's financials. They don't see better gross (or operating) margins now than they did a decade or two prior. If anything, margins have been squeezed further.
My point is Polaris has to do more, with less. Part of that means they have to squeeze the dealer a bit. Part of that means they have to be really picky which parts they run in a particular sled.
I'm not defending this obvious manufacturing issue (or design) they have in this current motor. That seems more of an oversight on the engineering/manufacturing engineering side of things.
However, you can't print money out of thin air.
I've seen other industries go through this same thing, and many people now treat their dealer as a "this is just where I pickup my sled" forgoing all warranty work this side of a bottom end (doh!) as its often more trouble than its worth.
In Jackson, we don't even have a Polaris dealer. We have one man shops that basically service the entire community.
I think you are going to see more of this. Small shops with little overhead supporting a community's service needs. Large mega shops you buy your sled at. These shops will be hundreds of miles away, but they are the only ones with the volume to justify the (not really awesome) business model.
In the end, we are to blame for this. If we were willing to pay more for our sleds, it wouldn't be this way. If we were okay with lesser performance sleds, it too wouldn't be this way.
But we all want to walk the ragged edge of performance and cost. Its tough. Clearly, since no one manufacturer is winning hand over fist. There are limits to what is possible. Competition is good.
...just my $0.02.
EDIT: Can't print money out of thin air unless you are the Fed
All the sled manufacturers are caught in a really challenging environment. Pricing really matters, but so too does performance. We all want 200 horse 300lbs machines that last 20 years. And we want them at $9000.
The compromise we've arrived at is a $10-14K machine that is so much more capable than a sled even 10 years ago its silly.
The downside is, margins get squeezed. I can say this honestly as I follow PII's financials. They don't see better gross (or operating) margins now than they did a decade or two prior. If anything, margins have been squeezed further.
My point is Polaris has to do more, with less. Part of that means they have to squeeze the dealer a bit. Part of that means they have to be really picky which parts they run in a particular sled.
I'm not defending this obvious manufacturing issue (or design) they have in this current motor. That seems more of an oversight on the engineering/manufacturing engineering side of things.
However, you can't print money out of thin air.
I've seen other industries go through this same thing, and many people now treat their dealer as a "this is just where I pickup my sled" forgoing all warranty work this side of a bottom end (doh!) as its often more trouble than its worth.
In Jackson, we don't even have a Polaris dealer. We have one man shops that basically service the entire community.
I think you are going to see more of this. Small shops with little overhead supporting a community's service needs. Large mega shops you buy your sled at. These shops will be hundreds of miles away, but they are the only ones with the volume to justify the (not really awesome) business model.
In the end, we are to blame for this. If we were willing to pay more for our sleds, it wouldn't be this way. If we were okay with lesser performance sleds, it too wouldn't be this way.
But we all want to walk the ragged edge of performance and cost. Its tough. Clearly, since no one manufacturer is winning hand over fist. There are limits to what is possible. Competition is good.
...just my $0.02.
EDIT: Can't print money out of thin air unless you are the Fed
Im not so sure about that.
I think Polaris/Cat/Poo would just suck up the money (not let is stay at dealer level) and the situation would still be the same for the dealers, but we get less of what we want.
J
JJ_0909
ACCOUNT CLOSED
I'm being sort of sarcastic when I say that. I'm "blaming" the market. The market is what makes all this work in the first place.
The market is clearly defined by what we buy/don't buy...and I'm saying, the "market" is challenging for the manufacturer. Moreso than you'd think, if their financials are any indication. Its not an "us" vs "them" type of thing like ID makes it out to be. Its a reflection of us and what is capable in reality. Maybe another manufacturer will spring onto the scene and show up all three current manufactures. But any company that has looked at it has gone "we can't compete with that". So that tells you, in this thing we call "reality" this is as close to perfection as we can currently get.
We can change that by boycotting the sport, or a brand. By not buying stuff, or buying other stuff. That's how markets work.
Maybe the dealers all need to stop being dealers! But I'd wager this won't happen, as many have found a way for the business model to work. Maybe we should all go buy Cats or Doos....but they too are running the same ragged edged that Polaris is when it comes to price, performance and durability.
I really do expect Polaris to sort this one out. It won't bury them. It won't crush them. It probably won't even make their Q4 or Q1 report.
Time will tell...
My buddies sled is being assembled today with the new top end. Should be done by the end of they day and we will be trying it out this weekend.
S
skippy
Well-known member
If so, did you lose the engine with the turbo on it or without? If the turbo was on it, which means it then wasn't covered under warranty were you still able to purchase a new engine in a reasonable time frame? Or is Polaris hoarding them just to stay on top of the stock engine warranty claims? Thanks
I’d think they’d be available for purchase if Polaris has stock. It’s a lot more profitable to sell an engine at retail than it is to do a free warranty replacement. Make the warranty guy wait
Holy moly.
I have thoughts. It doesn't mean they are right, wrong, accurate or in left field. It also doesn't mean I have to share my thoughts.
I've not been authorized or asked to speak about any of these warranty issue discussions on behalf of Polaris, so I'm not going to issue any statement on behalf of Polaris.
I'm not an engine builder or a mechanic, so it does me no good to try to
get on the internet and pontificate about honing or crank bearings. Those of you who know me on here in person will know that's not who I am.
Yeah, ummmmm, "vintage"... As in classic. Meaning, THIS type of discussion and thread traffic is how SnoWest was back in the day.
Pick a side... About what? Between you and JJ? I don't need to pick a side.
Fair enough. Thank you.
I DID post about a crank bearing issue when I was at 11 miles. No crow here.
I had a coolant temp issue last weekend at about 230 miles. Don't know what the diagnosis is yet. Could have been an air bubble locked in at the impeller for all I know so far.
I have thoughts. It doesn't mean they are right, wrong, accurate or in left field. It also doesn't mean I have to share my thoughts.
I've not been authorized or asked to speak about any of these warranty issue discussions on behalf of Polaris, so I'm not going to issue any statement on behalf of Polaris.
I'm not an engine builder or a mechanic, so it does me no good to try to
get on the internet and pontificate about honing or crank bearings. Those of you who know me on here in person will know that's not who I am.
Yeah, ummmmm, "vintage"... As in classic. Meaning, THIS type of discussion and thread traffic is how SnoWest was back in the day.
Pick a side... About what? Between you and JJ? I don't need to pick a side.
Fair enough. Thank you.
I DID post about a crank bearing issue when I was at 11 miles. No crow here.
See above about the bearing.
I had a coolant temp issue last weekend at about 230 miles. Don't know what the diagnosis is yet. Could have been an air bubble locked in at the impeller for all I know so far.
Last edited:
J
JJ_0909
ACCOUNT CLOSED
Just wanted to mention there is no "side" between ID and myself. At all. I think ID was suggesting "pick a side" meaning are you with the proverbial "us" or "them".
Just a guess.
Also, just so I understand, you've lost 1 motor or 2?
Gotcha. Yeah, it's hard to tell what side is what in this thread. Lots of moving parts.
I've had one motor replaced. It went down on Nov 30. It was back on the snow by Dec 7.
So with all the social media out there, how many documented 850 down? On here and fb I have read less than 10-15 out of 14000 sold! Maybe some ppl are seeing issues where there aren’t any.
S
Slick
Well-known member
I get ID is the man when it comes to motor building, however I do think his narrative toward dealers is a bit short sited.
All the sled manufacturers are caught in a really challenging environment. Pricing really matters, but so too does performance. We all want 200 horse 300lbs machines that last 20 years. And we want them at $9000.
The compromise we've arrived at is a $10-14K machine that is so much more capable than a sled even 10 years ago its silly.
The downside is, margins get squeezed. I can say this honestly as I follow PII's financials. They don't see better gross (or operating) margins now than they did a decade or two prior. If anything, margins have been squeezed further.
My point is Polaris has to do more, with less. Part of that means they have to squeeze the dealer a bit. Part of that means they have to be really picky which parts they run in a particular sled.
I'm not defending this obvious manufacturing issue (or design) they have in this current motor. That seems more of an oversight on the engineering/manufacturing engineering side of things.
However, you can't print money out of thin air.
I've seen other industries go through this same thing, and many people now treat their dealer as a "this is just where I pickup my sled" forgoing all warranty work this side of a bottom end (doh!) as its often more trouble than its worth.
In Jackson, we don't even have a Polaris dealer. We have one man shops that basically service the entire community.
I think you are going to see more of this. Small shops with little overhead supporting a community's service needs. Large mega shops you buy your sled at. These shops will be hundreds of miles away, but they are the only ones with the volume to justify the (not really awesome) business model.
In the end, we are to blame for this. If we were willing to pay more for our sleds, it wouldn't be this way. If we were okay with lesser performance sleds, it too wouldn't be this way.
But we all want to walk the ragged edge of performance and cost. Its tough. Clearly, since no one manufacturer is winning hand over fist. There are limits to what is possible. Competition is good.
...just my $0.02.
EDIT: Can't print money out of thin air unless you are the Fed
Lots of really valid points in here for sure, but colour me sceptical as to if we'd pay more it would show up in a better product. I'm thinking with the number of presidents, Vice Presidents, managers, asst managers, shareholders dividends , management bonuses, etc, the surplus money would be sucked up pretty fast into the corporate well and the problematic issues we are and have experienced, wouldn't change much.
Sorry Dan but i have to disagree with you on this one. First i own 2 Polaris dealerships(1 is a polaris/yamaha/honda and 1 is a polaris exclusive dealer), 1 Toyota, 1 Nissan, 1 gmc/chevy/buick and 2 fairly large used car(exclusively) dealership as well. My Polaris exclusive dealer(400 units new and used) makes twice the net profit of my nissan dealer(375 new/used units)......my toyota and gmc dealers makes double my polaris' with about 450 new/used units.....Polaris and BRP are the only manufacturers worthing to invest money into up to date infrastructure, where return on investments makes sens. I have much better gross margins with polaris than Nissan and on par with toyota and gmc. one problem we have with the powersports industry is on the warranty work. we get paid cost +15% vs cost+35% in the car industry and the flat rate in the powerspoerts are ridiculous compared with the automotive, therefore making it very difficult to be profitable in the service department. As per the car industry, the finance and insurance department is as profitable as the units sales....in fact better! i have travelled a lot in the states and i can tell you the u.s. powersports dealers are decades behind estern Canada(specificaly in Quebec) in infrastructures and operation. too many small shops and owners that didn't adapt to the new internet rules of doing business in the retail market. internet can be at the same time you best ally or your worst enemy! i have to tell you your right with the gross margins shrinking every year but at the same time the retail market pie is expending and your sales opportunities are growing drasticaly so you have to be able to catch those new web opportunities and that is why a lot of the small shops are going south. the day you would run a very small dealer to get yourself something to eat and a good bargain on a sled are over, just like the car industry, the powersports industry is shifiting digital and much faster then i have seen the car industry shifting(the crowd is much younger and web oriented). I can go on another 2 pages but at the end, the car and powersports industry is moving at a record speed and you must adapt your way of doing business accordingly. forget about arctic cat, yamaha, honda, suzuki, kawasaki and all others, the only one worth investing money as a dealer are number one: BRP and number two: Polaris. i would buy another dozen Polaris dealers anytime and i would make extremely good money and the return on investment is realy amazing once you adapt to the industry of retailing vehicules in a digital world and mastering the finance and insurance department.
I was going to post before, but it seemed like a stupid fight:
Dealers make more than $300 per sled as was previously posted. (If they choose to.) I know guys that paid over a thousand more than other guys for similar 850 sleds from the same dealer.
End of season kickbacks are usually over $300.
Sled margins are nothing like parts margins, but they are there. And the LARGE dealers can sell sleds for close to cost, if you use their financing. If you don't, the price goes WAY up.
Upselling parts is also where new sled sales make money.
Dealers make more than $300 per sled as was previously posted. (If they choose to.) I know guys that paid over a thousand more than other guys for similar 850 sleds from the same dealer.
End of season kickbacks are usually over $300.
Sled margins are nothing like parts margins, but they are there. And the LARGE dealers can sell sleds for close to cost, if you use their financing. If you don't, the price goes WAY up.
Upselling parts is also where new sled sales make money.
